The Influence of Zoroastrianism on Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

reply to post by autowrench


very well said, i would have to add that religion is one hell of a way to keep the masses dormant and obedient to their state. It always has impressed me how this invisible force-god will one day come out off knowhere and save the people from repression, but in the mean time listen to your oppressors as that is what your messiah would do only a mad man would keep listening to this religous gibberish. dont believe me, just look at the history of every ethnic group throughout the worlds ages, it is a depressing learning experience

i learned in college that zorastor predicted he would be reborn as jesus. he also spent believed that we spend 3 days before ascending to heaven. this is mirrored in freemasons 3 day initiation. coming from the depths of darkness to the light.

Originally posted by Mooradian

Zoroastrianism is one of the oldest world religions.


Disinformation people.

There is only one world religion which every heart holds.

In fact, some have dated it as the world's oldest monotheism, although this supposition is by no means universally accepted. Accurately describing the age of this religion is very difficult, because there is some debate over when the prophet

PROPHET? Prophets come from Almighty Father _Jehovah. Please do not call it zoroastianism, it is christianity.

for who it is named, Zarathustra (in Greek, Zoroaster) actually lived. Speculation ranges from 6,000 to 600 B.C.E. What is known, however, is that for a period of approximately 1,000 years, Zoroastrianism was a very prominent religion, certainly the most powerful in the Middle East, perhaps the most powerful in the world. Over this period, which is generally held to have been from 549 B.C.E. to 642 C.E. (Zoroastrianism 574), it is known that Zoroastrianism communicated some of its traditional ideas to some of the adherents of Judaism (Flower 58). These were incorporated to some degree into the Jewish faith. However, because both Christianity and Islam were founded after Zoroastrianism,

Christianity is the world religion, none else, religion comes from the Father, thy shalt not worship other gods.

A righteous heart need to be found for one to call it religion or the belief will be your death.


they were both influenced to a much greater degree, and tenets of faith that were originally found in Zoroastrianism were incorporated into Christianity and Islam on a very noticeable level. In fact, many aspects of Christianity and Islam that many people think typify these two religions have their roots in Zoroastrianism. The most notable of these aspects are the notions of



dualism, judgement at death, heaven and hell, a savior born of a virgin, a final judgement, and resurrection.

All of these concepts were originally taught in Zoroastrianism before Christianity and Islam existed (Zoroastrianism, 574). Therefore, it is evident that, by preceding Christianity and Islam, Zoroastrianism influenced both of these religions.

WAS THERE ANY do unto your fellow men as thou want to be done unto????? kreeesie




source

How is it that people are so dedicated and faithful to a religion (ALA Christianity/Islam), yet they do not understand the true origins of their faith?

FAITH COMES FROM WITHIN!!!!!

How can we take the Christian faith as the one true religion when it is a copy off of Zoroastrianism?

The main problem at the heart of our species is ignorance.


-> We are unwilling to believe something new.

They are unwilling to believe again. To regret the mistake they've made and grow again. STUBBORN?? some might be.


We call it outlandish and not possible, yet these pieces of information are scientifically, historically, and archaelogicaly backed. -----> Are all of this world

A Christian won't be willing to believe this information. Why? Because they do not want to. ???

Christians, please counter this information and tell me WHY The largest three religions on Earth are not copycats of Zoroastrianism. Also, I'm pretty sure we don't want to hear the 'faith' thing please.

Discuss.

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edit on 10/10/2010 by maria_stardust because: Shortened amount of external copy and pasted material. Added external source tags and link to original article.

Originally posted by Zamini
reply to post by dontreally

 

The Zoroastrians were cult worshippers. They like their pagan brethern instituted 'moral decrees', but infact their elite like our elite regularly transgressed them. Their moral code was simpyl their to establish a semblance of order in society - deemed necessary. But they themeslves were not contingent on the laws they created,.

That's funny, seeing as how under the rule of Cyrus the Great, zoroastrian, things as human rights and freedom of religion for even conquered nations were a given. Workers that were brought in from other nations were paid in silver and gold coins.

I don't think a cult worshipper would be known as an "annointed one" in Judaism right? You know, the zoroastrian who freed the jews from Babylon and brought them back to their home land and helped rebuild their places of worship. You do know this right?

Yes. I do know that. There have been plenty of idolators in history who supported the Jewish people and helped them. Another being pharoah during Josephs life - whom he served as prime minister towards. Alexander the great is another gentile who was benign towards Judaism, despite the overall attitude of Hellenisitc aggression towards Jewish spirituality. This is why many Jews today bear the name 'alexander'.

You do know that Zororastrianism is dualistic, right?

This concept equally exists in Christianity, with its emphasis on the devil as another power.

Judaism has no such, and has never had, this conception of reality. Its entirely derived from the east - hence the symbolic meaning of the 3 magi - from Persia, who gave 'gifts (which is a symbol used for mystical knowledge) to Jesus.

Im merely rejecting the idea that zoroastrianism had any influence over Judaism. Something suggested by many pseudo-intellctual scholars who clearly no very little about Judaism.

People are much too naive and simple when it comes to analyzing simlarities between religions.They think the word 'monotheism' implies a philosophical universality. Monotheism can mean a host of things. My monotheism can be arrived at in an entirely different way tnan someone elses. For instance, the prevailing 'pagan' notion of a unified reality - a monotheism, is the unification of all phenomena; both good AND evil. Its a popular Gnostic and Eastern idea that this world is meant to be a world of illusion, of difficulty and suffering, and thus, man is meant to go through trials of difficulty in this world in order to ultimately transcend it. The root problem; difficulty is not seen as a problem, but as a natural phenomena. They dont see for this world a world of true peace. And if they do - they see it as one without G-d (the prime source). And they certainly do not respect or give honor to his commandments which were given to the first man. Their conception of realiy necessarily involves evil as a contrary principle which gives meaning and value to good. So. Do they consider wanton sexuality bad? The zoroastrians? On a societal level. No they do not. I have never read the Avestas but ive read a pretty hefty book of Kshnoom - Zoroastrian occultism, which is the mystical basis of Zoroastrianism and it certainly is laden with ideas like this.

Zoroastrianism is monotheistic in the same sense that Hinduism is.

Its in Judaisms radically different conception, in completely rejecting another power responislbe for the existence of evil, which makes Judaism a monotheism that concentrates on a sublimation of the physical, by the spiritual; and not the inverse, where the physical sublimates the spiritual. Or where a complete separation between both is sought.

That being said i may disagree with some theological tenets in zoroastrianism, but that doesnt mean i dont believe there exist righteous zoroastrianists. Its just their spiritual liberality - a quality shared with their eastern and western cousins, that bothers me. In this way Judaism is completely on their own. A 3500 year old religion that from its very founding has repudiated this wanton, comfort seeking spiritual philosophy.

reply to post by dontreally



Abraham was brought from Modern Day Iraq to Canaan, something modern Judaism does not like to acknowledge, Ur, Sumer, Akkadia, Harran, these were the lands of "Nimrod the great and mighty Hunter before the lord" (As recorded in the old testament). The Capital of Sumer was UR.

It is no wonder then that much of the Old testament is wrapped in Sumerian lore; epic of Gilgamesh, the creation of the universe, Humanity created from Clay, the idea of a personal god, plagues as a result of god displeasure with man, Death and Hell, ( Sheol), and other themes were carried into the old testament.
Phoenician traders carried these fables and stories over the Mediterranean seas, and were consolidated in a Phoenician city named Byblos, from where the bible receives its name. The Phoenician alphabet gave birth to the Greek and then to Roman writing systems, from where we have our modern alphabet system today. This Phonician system is known as Proto-Canaanite, the ancestor of all modern Judeo-greek-roman systems. As a result, it was phoenician traders that influenced the old testament as much as any group, including the lands of ancient sumer, and its king, Nimrod.


The Judaic history is not one sided, it has many contributing sources and origins. It cannot be taken literally as there are obvious contradictions with modern science and understanding of History.

Originally posted by ariel bender
reply to post by dontreally

 

Abraham was brought from Modern Day Iraq to Canaan, something modern Judaism does not like to acknowledge, Ur, Sumer, Akkadia, Harran, these were the lands of "Nimrod the great and mighty Hunter before the lord" (As recorded in the old testament). The Capital of Sumer was UR.

It is no wonder then that much of the Old testament is wrapped in Sumerian lore; epic of Gilgamesh, the creation of the universe, Humanity created from Clay, the idea of a personal god, plagues as a result of god displeasure with man, Death and Hell, ( Sheol), and other themes were carried into the old testament.
Phoenician traders carried these fables and stories over the Mediterranean seas, and were consolidated in a Phoenician city named Byblos, from where the bible receives its name. The Phoenician alphabet gave birth to the Greek and then to Roman writing systems, from where we have our modern alphabet system today. This Phonician system is known as Proto-Canaanite, the ancestor of all modern Judeo-greek-roman systems. As a result, it was phoenician traders that influenced the old testament as much as any group, including the lands of ancient sumer, and its king, Nimrod.


The Judaic history is not one sided, it has many contributing sources and origins. It cannot be taken literally as there are obvious contradictions with modern science and understanding of History.

Again. Youre demonstrating a severe lack of knowledge of Judaism.

Im not saying the 'creation' epoch was invented by Judaism. The Torah was given in 1450 BCE.

In any case, you touched on a crucial point. The creation epoch, what you called 'the babylonian creation epoch' the enuma elish, is the sumerian version of this idea. Also. Judaism does not try to 'conceal' the fact that Abraham came from Ur. Its says so in bible and expanded upon in the footnote of that passage in my TaNaKh(Hebrew bible). We know Abraham was from a pagan culture. We know he was a noble in Ur. His father was a noble, as was his father. As was Nachor, Lot etc.

The point is that philosophically speaking - and religion, myth, is philosophical, albeit in allegory, Judaism is completely different from the worlds religions.

It is true that a similar train of though can be found in ALL religions, minus Judaism. This strain was identified by Aldous Huxley as the 'perenially philosophy'. Zoroastrianism contains this aspect as well. As does hinduism, buddhism, Shinto, Sikhism, Islam and Christianity (in addition to the pre-christian pagan religions of europe). These religions are the same because the religion itself is based on the human philosophical experience of reality. This reality is universal. Hence, we find even in areas which little contact with the west, like the americas, possess a spirituality and psycholgy which resembles the mystic traditions of Europe, the middle east, India and China.

Zoroastrianism starts with Ahu - or Ahura Mazda, who is the all pervasive reality. Is this the monotheism people like to attribute to zoroastrianism? But wait. Later on in this Zoroastrian cosmology, Ahu divides into two aspectsd, Ormuzd and Ahriman - good and evil. One the source of creation, order, good, the other of destruction, chaos and evil. Regardless of whether Zoroastrians acknowledge a unified whole which they seek to gain mystical union with, there still exists the 'two' aspects, which they maintain to be intrinsic aspects of Ahu.

You can find this equally well in Gnostic literature and Christianity. Need look no further than the constant empjhasis on 'the devil', the 'fall of man' 'original sin'. An emphasis on mans ineptitude to change himself. Only subjecting himself to 'the grace of G-d' - an ambiguous idea in itself, will enable one to 'reconcile' this aspect. What most if not all christians dont get is the duality of the Godhead that christianity emphasizes. A good and a evil aspect.

Islam also possesses this idea within their Sufism. Allah is described as 'dualistic' but not in the manner you would appreciate this idea in kabbalistic thought, but in the same manner of the pagans. The moon - the symbol of Islam is a symbol of the divine feminine. The al khadir anecdote in the Qoran delinates the role of the Self in comparison to the 'super ego', as freud would call it.

I could go on all day giving you other examples from other cultures - mainly from Greece aswell as Babylon.

As for the creation epoch. It describes a point in mans spiritual history. Genesis, describes a time before now. A time before what we now experience and know, and thus "genesis' is an apt name. We have long since succumbed to the waters of the flood. What consciousness at those 'times', we will never know until the messianic age. Its described in different cultures. Did Judaism 'steal' the idea? Or are they simply enunciating a spiritual truth already known to earlier generations? The Torah was given to Moses from G-d. Moses recieved the Torah and wrote with a clear vision, and understanding of every aspect and 'world' of existence. "Moshe is accepted in all my house" G-d says to Moshe. This means that every aspect of reality, the spiritual worlds was known to him. He channeled this Torah and the very language used to write it down (Hebrew),was a physical representation of the energies which create the universe.

The Torah is remarkably deep. The wisdom of the the 'pre torah' world ultimately comes from Adam. The Pagan cultures were very sophisticated and knew a great deal about reality. But were they obedient? humble? or were they interested in 'building a name' for themselves?

Its in this proverbial 'casting off the yoke of heaven' where Judaism Officially deviates from the 'perennial philosophy' of the pre Torah world.

Im not saying all religious non Jews are antinomian - that is, against a legalistic structure. Many Christians follow an objective morality - the 10 commandments, with great sincerity. As do many muslims, easterners. But non of these beliefs (barring Orthodox Christian and Islam - though, contradicted by their esoteric dimension) are made into dogma. Infact - especially in eastern religions, Dogma is avoided at all costs - especially in Buddhism, where its a sort of dogma to not hold to any beliefs (which of course is a belief in itself). Dogma is a necessary, albeit, outer focused apect of the religious experience. One must operate according to a fixed doctrine of how to conduct himself morally, outside of his house - with other people, with nature and all the details involved in both spheres. Does this exist in Hinduism? Not really. Its simply a Jewish construct. An objective view of reality - of a moral need and OBLIGATION - something you dont hear too often outside of Abrahamic circles, for man to obey his conscience.

Zoroastrianism, Christianity (and i mean it in its true way, as a Roman Greco invention that borrowed heavily language from the Hebraic tradition, despite the crux and essence of the philosophy transmitted being a coposite of neo-platonian, zoroastrian, babylonian, and egyptian ideas, conveyed as "Jewish" when in fact its only purpose was to usurp the Jewish tradition. To displace and trivialize it. This is why the modern world believes - thanks to generations of western propaganda, that the stories in the Bible are simply literal events. Yes. These events occured (specifically the 5 books of moses)as Judaism aswell teaches. But in Rabbinic terms, this 'simple' reading is the outer most layer of the Torah. Theres a more inner level which is metaphorical. This metaphorical level contains concepts - which ultimately refer to spiritual 'worlds'. These various levels are called PaRDeS (the source of the world paradise) Peshat- simple, Remez - allegoric, Derush - analytical, and Sod - mystical. Each refers to a different level of understanding. When reads it simply, he sees it as a historical event. When one sees it as a metaphor, he than delves deeper to understand the concepts being alluded to. This can onyl b known through tradition, as the psychology - spirituality, of Judaism is contained in the narrative of the Bible. Thus, only the priests of judaism, the rabbis, possess the ability. Just as priests of any other traditions possess the occult mystery of their own traditions. This understanding of the concept eventually allows one to experience it. Thus "sod" secret, means not 'secret' in that only some people know. If some people know than its no longer secret and therefore the title is meaningless. Sod means mystical - and of course, the mystical can only be experienced, and not communicated.

Hope this little introduction showed the layered nature of religion.

I have respect, to some degree, of other religions. I enjoy studying them. Just dont think when there is simply no evidence showing, that Judaism is a virtual recreation - tit for tat, of Zoroastrianism. That is infantile in its simplicity.

Just because there appears to be similarites in language does not mean the metaphor - the symbol, is akin to another symbol. You have to analyze the language. The symbolism. The dynamic being alluded to in its interplay between symbols.

For instance, In Hesiods Theogony, an ancient greek allegory of creation. Gaia is the prime cause. This implies a belief in a inherently feminine universe and source. This reflects greek culture, which was wanton, liberal and fixated on the material (latin 'mater' means mother. Thus material means lit. 'from the mother'). Gaia gives birth to Uranous - the sky, the male aspect. This is what westerners typically call G-d. Gaia and uranous beget Cronus (time) who is urged by Gaia to castrate his fatherm, Uranous. Castrating the father? what idea is alluded to in castration? If i used in contemporary jargon with my friends "my wife castrated me", does that not suggest i lost my power to influence? Influence is giving over something. If i havent my male organ of transference, than im castrated. Im incapable of effecting. Thus. In Greek mythology, from its beginnings, as told by Hesiod, the 'father' lost all iability to influence creation when Cronus, time came forth. Later on you see a trinity emerge with Zeus, Hades and Poseidon. Three aspects you could say to the Greek Godhead. Zeus dispossesed his father as ruler. And eventually Zeus capitulated his authority to his son, perseus.

Not much difference when you get down to it, between western and eastern thought. But Judaism - me being a jew whos educated in his tradition, to some extent, and also educated in western and eastern thought, spiritually is on its own not embracing the perennially ethos shared by the nations of the world.

reply to post by dontreally

You do know that Zororastrianism is dualistic, right?

Yes, historically speaking zoroastrianism started the whole dualism thing. It existed a long time before Judaism as well. Therefore entirely probable that it influenced, not all but parts of, Judaism.
Look at Shintoism in Japan and look at how much it is influenced by Zoroastrianism. It literally is EVERYwhere in the world.

Judaism has no such, and has never had, this conception of reality. Its entirely derived from the east - hence the symbolic meaning of the 3 magi - from Persia, who gave 'gifts (which is a symbol used for mystical knowledge) to Jesus.

The only reason they are called "magi" (magicians such as Merlin) was because the Persian culture seemed
magical to the, at that time, not so advanced people on Earth. As science was advancing, human rights came into existance, acceptance of any faith or religion, which was unheard of at the time(this is why Cyrus freed the Jews - according to zoroastrian texts everybody - even if they were to worship a stone, has the right to worship that stone - so don't turn the kindness of one human being into religious doctrine, please...it has been done over and over by some very literate people who were entirely ignorant of social interaction).

Their conception of realiy necessarily involves evil as a contrary principle which gives meaning and value to good. So. Do they consider wanton sexuality bad? The zoroastrians? On a societal level. No they do not. I have never read the Avestas but ive read a pretty hefty book of Kshnoom - Zoroastrian occultism, which is the mystical basis of Zoroastrianism and it certainly is laden with ideas like this.

It is necesarry because it is inherent in every single human being. Or are you going to claim otherwise?
Would you say the marriage between a grown man and a 3 year old child is anything but evil? You draw conclusions from works that were created at a later date by people who might not have even be in the know. As did I to show you what happens. Would you say it is evil to take the culture of a people, rip it to shreds, steal from it, then present the people who you ripped the culture away from as barbarians?

A zoroastrian freed the Jews from certain destruction. is called a messiah in the jewish holy book, and he is still referred to as GENTILE. Evil? I'll let you decide. It certainly sounds like discrimination.

Zoroastrianism is monotheistic in the same sense that Hinduism is.

That is your opinion. What I'm talking about isn't even zoroastrian-ISM. The west has made it into an ISM, into occult, into magic, because the very SIMPLE guidelines cannot be understood by a greedy, jealous or vengeful person. Something most of the Earth is laden with at this moment.

Its in Judaisms radically different conception, in completely rejecting another power responislbe for the existence of evil, which makes Judaism a monotheism that concentrates on a sublimation of the physical, by the spiritual; and not the inverse, where the physical sublimates the spiritual. Or where a complete separation between both is sought.

This choice is offered to early Zoroastrians as well. Why? Because there was a central religion present which involved occult practices which had to make room for Zartosht and his followers.

Zoroastrianism starts with Ahu - or Ahura Mazda, who is the all pervasive reality. Is this the monotheism people like to attribute to zoroastrianism? But wait. Later on in this Zoroastrian cosmology, Ahu divides into two aspectsd,

Yes. After the "prophet" who said he wasn't a prophet died, other people took the ideas and values and made them into something for personal gain. Welcome to Humanity. Judaism is the same, as is Christianity and Islam. As is ANY written word, whatever it may be.

People remain people.

No greed, no jealousy, no vengeance.
Good words, good deeds, good self-reflection.

Good is progressive, it's advancement.
Bad is the opposite.

How can you make that into something magical or occult


Edit:

I do like the information you offer, it gives insight in your way of thinking. By chance I was discussing Judaism with a concentration camp survivor yesterday, of course, the man was taken up with Judaism and had all these books called "Islam - Hateful" on his bookshelf(also a torah translated by a Jew - it's so weird, what is this fascination of jews by christians? Does your book force others to worship Jews? Yes it does, doesn't it? So much for your uniqueness. -
They are Insanely Christian folks as well. Completely mind swiped. I felt so bad for telling them that there were churches and synagogues in Iran, because they simply could NOT believe it. Safe to say, they hadn't read a single piece of news from lets say, the middle-east or china, or africa or south America. No historical information present on any of said subjects. Yet they could pretty much recite ANP and REUTERS news articles.

I was yesterday, instantly revolted by Christianity and Judaism(And I was raised by Christians) seeing how these vulnerable people were indoctrinated to such a degree...WARS exist because of these levels of ignorance.

reply to post by Zamini

Originally posted by Zamini
The only reason they are called "magi" (magicians such as Merlin) was because the Persian culture seemed
magical to the, at that time, not so advanced people on Earth.

Just wanted to point out that you've got it backwards. "Magic" and "magicians" came from "magi", not the other way around. Perhaps it doesn't really affect your point so much, but just wanted to point it out.


reply to post by dontreally

I'm not sure how Christianity or Islam could be considered dualistic. Christianity might be "trilistic" , but I couldn't really see justifying calling it dualistic because of the involvement of the devil...no serious religious doctrine places the devil anywhere as near as God in terms of power. And as for Islam being dualistic ...all muslims (including sufis) would probably take offence to that . I can't think of a religion more obsessed with ONE ONE AHAD AHAD AHAD, except Judaism, perhaps. Even in sufi thought, the goal is to become ONE with God.

reply to post by babloyi

Just wanted to point out that you've got it backwards. "Magic" and "magicians" came from "magi", not the other way around. Perhaps it doesn't really affect your point so much, but just wanted to point it out.

Yes, I didn't claim magi came from magician, but magicians such as Merlin were based on the ideas of Persian wise men. The magi. It indeed doesn't affect the point at all

all muslims (including sufis) would probably take offence to that . I can't think of a religion more obsessed with ONE ONE AHAD AHAD AHAD, except Judaism, perhaps. Even in sufi thought, the goal is to become ONE with God.

Indeed it is for sufis. Ever experienced a sufi chant and meditation? I've heard it is quite the experience!

The zoroastrian consumed the sacrement hoama, some say it was the same as soma of the vedic tradition.
Gordon Wasson and others believed it was the amanita muscaria mushroom. It's a good contender given that the amanita can be found all throughout the early christian art, hidden and in plain sight. I mention this because of zoroastrian influence on christianity and the possibility of hoama being the christians favourite mushroom.

literally hundreds of iconic images of the mushroom in christian art confirm John Allegro's interpretation of the dead sea scrolls. All religions are born of the fertility cults and ingestion of vision producing plants. In particular the mushroom.

The prophets were more like shaman, astrotheology was incorporated to the administration of various sacrements to know what to dose a person on via astrological chart. Varoius rituals involving mind expanding drugs were used until the level of purification was acheived for the mushroom ritual or what could be called the christ experience.

The phalic mushrooom was the symbol for god on earth when the original god was the great penis in the sky, the rain his sperm and the earth being the womb, The storms were the orgasm of god. The dancing rituals and copulation ceremonies were means of stimulating god.

The vegetation was the offspring of god, and those special plants endowed with opening windows to heaven were considered divine.

Astrotheolgy was definately a big part but not the only part. When we hear stories like that of Moses talking to a burning bush or the visions of Jacob or Eizekial, and when christ offers up his flesh and blood? (it wasn't cannabalism they were talking about.) So what do you think is going on here?
The unspoken truth that's what.

This is where all religions originally come from. In this view, all of a sudden religion takes on a completely different look to the political manipulative institutions that they are today and tends to make a little more sense.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by Zamini

 

Originally posted by Zamini
The only reason they are called "magi" (magicians such as Merlin) was because the Persian culture seemed
magical to the, at that time, not so advanced people on Earth.

Just wanted to point out that you've got it backwards. "Magic" and "magicians" came from "magi", not the other way around. Perhaps it doesn't really affect your point so much, but just wanted to point it out.


reply to post by dontreally

 

I'm not sure how Christianity or Islam could be considered dualistic. Christianity might be "trilistic"

, but I couldn't really see justifying calling it dualistic because of the involvement of the devil...no serious religious doctrine places the devil anywhere as near as God in terms of power. And as for Islam being dualistic

...all muslims (including sufis) would probably take offence to that

. I can't think of a religion more obsessed with ONE ONE AHAD AHAD AHAD, except Judaism, perhaps. Even in sufi thought, the goal is to become ONE with God.

The emphasis on an another power which 'competes' with G-d, as christianity has since its inceptions emphasized, makes it dualistic.

In Judaism for instance, Satan isnt seen as another power. This is why it helps having knowledge of Hebrew. Satan means 'accuser'. His singular purpose is to act as ones personal adversary. Thats what he was created for. How do i grow muscle? I must first lift heavy weights - which causes the muscle itself to rip,( a painful exercise) but i do it because i know by this RESISTENCE training i will gain in muscle mass.

This is the same idea of Satan in Judaism. Satan is ones 'weight' which motivates spiritual growth. When one has difficulties and trials it ultimately depends on how one will respond to it. Will he become forlorn? Or will he be positive. In Judaism its emphasized to 'know G-d in all your ways". That means everything that happens to you, be it good or bad, post facto, is what G-d willed. If i wanted to start a business and i failed miserably. Torah teaches G-d wanted that for you. Maybe it would have been bad for your personal spiritual growth if you had succeeded. There are plenty of cases where one becomes rich and instead of becomign humbled and generous with his fortune, becomes a greedy, arrogant person because of it. Whatever the reason, G-d kept that reality away from you. How are you to respond to this? Whether a failure or success, one sees it as a springboard to spiritual growth. Evil poses no problem in Jewish thought. It simply has no power.

However, in Christianity, evil has always posed a problem. This was the main topic of interest to the early church fathers. They emphasized a 'good G-d' yet there was a constant emphasis on original sin, on the devil, on the fall of man.. What do you think that implies? A sin is a spiritual malady. Christianity says man forever carries within him a spiritual anvil that prevents him from growing. This is emphasized to different degrees in various christian sects. In Lutheranism and Calvinism, its become virtually gnostic (returning to its pagan foundation, you could say) in its pessimism. "total depravity" and "predestination" both calvinist dogmas, say man cant overcome his animal nature due to the fall of man. Pre-destination furthers this idea by saying that every creature has a predetermined path for it when it is born. So i cant overcome my nature and i wont ever be able to? So, how exactly does morality exist in this protestant chain of thought? It seems to completely preclude it. Man has evil, animalistic urges which calvinism sanctions and panders to as 'obeying the will of G-d'. This is also CG Jungs psychology - which of course was based entirely on gnostic, pagan philosophy. Nature is deemed 'god'. You could say the god of our age could be Pan, or Liber or Athena. But certainly not the G-d of the universe, the G-d of Torah. Whats deified today is `freedom`. more like freedom to be enslaved to the passions - and when there are people using the passions to enslave others, as is the case with our elitist, aristocratic class, that is tyranny simply under another, less apparent guise.

The collective christian, western psyche can be analyzed in a personal sense, as the collective consciousness operates in the same way that it does in any personal case. When one believes in evil and good, he naturally desires to avoid evil and seek good. Now lets say evil becomes a VERY real thing to him. So much so that he gives it a name and calls it the devil, satan or lucifer. This fear of this power will become more real, as the evil has been personalized and thus more internalized.. Its been given a personality. Does the individual understand that this is simply an anthropomorphism? Does he understand the logic in it being a symbol, or does he seriously regard it in a very personal inner way as his arch enemy?Im describing the psyche of western man, which is the product of christian civilization. Now. does christianity emphasize a healthy atttiude towards evil - that is, an attitude that reconciles the issue of "evil" , or does it instead repress this "evil" which they so fear, burying it in the bottom of their psyche, in their collective unconscious? Is this the correct way to deal with evil? The devil has certainly not been deflated of his power. On the contrary, Hes been EMPOWERED. In Hebrew, Elohim (G-d) means "powers". El, another name for G-d, is singular for power. The mystical meaning of a 'god' is any psychic content which posesses power. Is satan not attributed power in christian thought? Do christians not quiver before the thought of the devil, the ruler of hell, and his demons? Its a terror to them. I know because i was born a catholic and i had always had a pathological paranoia about Satan. Ignoring what political advantages this fear can give Christian leaders over their bemused masses; What does a power repressed so long in the unconscious eventually become? In a personal example. When you repress a fearful thought long enough. Does it not eventually erupt, and manifest in a very concentrated and intense way? This is what began to happen in the late 18 early 19th century with Romanticism. Christian europe went in the complete opposite direction. Satan, you could say, who was locked up in the christian psyche burst forth from his dungeon and began to spread his influence. Liberalism. Pessimism. Nihilism, Existentialism. War. Sensuality, Depravity etc. Nowadays, people are completely under the whim of this 'power'. His will, his power to influence people towards things that are of his nature, namely, ego centricity, fear, torpor, depression, etc, has completely triumphed. Whats that popular christian axiom? The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing people he doesnt exist. Is this not societies ill today? Do people believe evil exists? or are most of us hypnotized by the medias cliches - of a moral relativism, liberalism 'as long as i dont hurt others i can do what i want' sorta mentality.

This is the result of the christian repression of this aspect of reality which their religious psychology empowered (Mysticism, btw, is a type of spiritual psychology. So psychology is not new at all, but simply the revelation of a system that already existed amongst the religious and political elite, as Alchemy, Gnosticism, etc. Also, modern psychology is load of subjective nonsense, as it is based primarely on a pessimistic, soulless predisposition of the psyche. Even the deeper psychologies which touch the aspect of the soul, Jungian for instance, are gnostic in their philosophy) and deified as `the devil`. Christian Europe was constantly subjected to the image of this spiritual miscreant. How did Christianity grow? Threatening death was how they mainly did it. But another threat was hell. Evil, the devil. Same as today. Christianity has no internal logic, but instead is spread through fear - through empty statements (you can only be saved through accepting christ) etc. Christianity is a pagan mess. Its exoteric, dogmatic part is nonsense, on the whole. Its inner, esoteric aspect, gnosticism, is pagan in its origins and its emphasis.

As for Islam. Again, you have a similar case of a fear of evil, the satan.

Im not saying all christians and muslims are exactly like im describing. Im speaking mainly of the collective. The essential result of their particular psychology.

Many christians and Muslims are good G-d fearing people. Notice i say G-d fearing. Not Satan fearing. The only thing worth of our fear is the source of all reality. And whats the thing to be feared? Not being near him. Being excised from him. Hes the ultimate source of good and therefore my behavior, attitude and speech must be attuned to strengthening this connection. Also, fear as im describing could more properly be called 'awe'. But ultimately, one needs more love than fear. But fear keeps one balanced.

reply to post by dontreally



No religion is a copy cat from where it borrows, but they do borrow, modify, adjust and tweak beliefs from other systems to make them their own, Judaism is no different; borrowing from Egypt, from Zoroastrianism, from Akkadian, from Babylon, from many religious systems until it had a finished package.

The post regarding mushrooms and asto-theology is spot on, all religions are derived from astrological sources, usually in association with shamanic practices, and this includes Judaism. The scribes, scholars, rabbi's and leaders may publicly disassociate astrology, but privately practiced and observed. There are mosaics of the Zodiac on various synagogues in Israel dating back to Byzantium times, and Mesopotamian star gods ; sakkuth and kaiwan, are mentioned in the book of Amos. Astrology is a large part of all religions, whether they wish to acknowledge or not, and much of this is derived from Zoroastrianism.

The Zodiac itself is depicted on many churches and temples without the people even understanding it is there as well. It is not just judeasim that has derived its main sources from others, but all religions do this

The deeper one studies any religion, the more it points to astrology, our earliest beliefs and mother of all religious systems today.

Originally posted by ariel bender
reply to post by dontreally

 

No religion is a copy cat from where it borrows, but they do borrow, modify, adjust and tweak beliefs from other systems to make them their own, Judaism is no different; borrowing from Egypt, from Zoroastrianism, from Akkadian, from Babylon, from many religious systems until it had a finished package.

The post regarding mushrooms and asto-theology is spot on, all religions are derived from astrological sources, usually in association with shamanic practices, and this includes Judaism. The scribes, scholars, rabbi's and leaders may publicly disassociate astrology, but privately practiced and observed. There are mosaics of the Zodiac on various synagogues in Israel dating back to Byzantium times, and Mesopotamian star gods ; sakkuth and kaiwan, are mentioned in the book of Amos. Astrology is a large part of all religions, whether they wish to acknowledge or not, and much of this is derived from Zoroastrianism.

The Zodiac itself is depicted on many churches and temples without the people even understanding it is there as well. It is not just judeasim that has derived its main sources from others, but all religions do this

The deeper one studies any religion, the more it points to astrology, our earliest beliefs and mother of all religious systems today.

Astrology is not the basis of religion.

On the contrary. Mystical knowledge of reality is the basis of astrology.

Astrology is simply understanding that the higher spheres, the world of the angels and primordial forces work through the stars, which are the intermediaries between the spiritual and physical world (stars being "celestial" are therefore the connector between the purely transcendental and terrerstrial realms).

reply to post by dontreally


Fear is the basis for religion. It can be said in few words as well

Nothing has influence on christianity, that fact is otherwise,.. !! christianity has influences on makebeliefreligions....


It is possible right things were taught by branches of christianity but they are not complete. The Top is Christianity and all branches should be cut cause Christianity is the sole religion wherein immortality and eternal life lays. Forgiveness of the sins and all one should know about what and how and who God is. The Almighty one. Other gods cannot be mistaken as _Jehovah cause they are not almighty. The Deity is Superior to all other gods.

[c] #pyramidstructure#[/c]


Come to the most High, the most High throned up there in the universe. Father of all, the one with lost children. Him that will punish evil sinners. Those who do not care about what is done and not done. Together with Jesus we shall live on while them will suffer in flames and sulphur. It is just a choice! Please ,let them see the light.

Set our people free, let them see the light! Those who wander in darkness, make them see the light. Comfort them, feed those hungry and nurture those who have lost family or friends. Hear our prayers o, Lord for us all to rejoice together in this world you have created for us. We shall live together and no more sorrow there will be.

__________


Prophets have been around, a prophet is of God. A prophet does not curse.
One can know by himself when a prophet is true or not. Read the books Corinthians, Mathew, the O.T. you shall find.!

Originally posted by Zamini
reply to post by dontreally

 

Fear is the basis for religion. It can be said in few words as well

edit on 25-10-2010 by Zamini because: (no reason given)

Fearing God is knowing Him.

reply to post by etherical waterwave


Award for the biggest liar ever! etherical waterwave!
Pagan origins of Jesus

Religous figures who predate Jesus

Jesus is the biggest scam ever created by man!
There is no Jesus and never will be!

reply to post by etherical waterwave


Your god is known through fear, the god I know of is of unconditional love.

reply to post by Zamini



Your unconditional love is the scam of the earth, all hearts are broken with it. You live in a mindset to call everything your own. You don't let others come to yourself. You are not open. You are the wolves in sheepscloathing. You have no God to offer you protection nor do you posses any love, your love is jerkery.

speak, thou shalt not be given.

reply to post by etherical waterwave


You're an alien on your own foot.

kriss krosS.