Proof that prophecy doesn't work

reply to post by MurderCityDevil


“But,” someone might still argue, “how can God condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?” And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things-NIV

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose -KJV

“But,” someone might still argue, “how can God condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?” And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things-NLT

Originally posted by JudgedCover
reply to post by ghpink

 

If it's the latter, then many events prophesied will not occur IF the targeted group of that prophecy responded appropriately. Therefore, it would be hard to gauge the accuracy of the prophecy since it never occured, but that is only because the prophecy's true purpose succeeded.

I know what you are trying to relay, but think about it, there would be more evidence if that were true!

If I was a prophet and said you are going to die at 6 o'clock tomorrow on 7th street in Texas, by a gunshot wound, from a man named Terry Williams, and you were in Texas at 6 o'clock and someone had heard this prophecy and wanted to overt it, well, you probably would have almost died (maybe someone had almost shot you) and something had changed it at the last minute. THERE WOULD BE SOME DOCUMENTED EVENT. BUT IN ALL OF HISTORY THERE IS NOT ONE! It doesn't change the fact, that you almost died and this and the prophecy would be recorded!! So there would be records throughout history of prophets being very specific and giving specific dates, and events ALMOST happened or PARTIALLY happened, and they were either changed or prevented all together!

BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE


What would be left is the DOCUMENTED RECORD that I made a prediction that you would die by gunshot and this would be a record in history. You may have ended up in the hospital, but the attack may have taken place and documented. We don't have ANY records of this.

We don't have any records of this because 99.9999% of all prophecies are too vague. They are not specific enough to give dates, times or places and can be interpreted many many ways.

Because they are vague, we cannot verify them scientifically. If we cannot verify it, we can never prove it false... OR TRUE. So its useless for the purpose its intended for.

There is that 0.0001% that there is a prophecy that is borderline specific (like nostradamus names dates like 1999 or the Mayans and 2012), but it is so vague about what is supposed to happen, that it makes the prophecy useless. Who is going to change the 2012 disaster? The prophecy isn't specific enough to tell us exactly what is going to happen, so its useless as prophecy.

I knew far in advance about the 1999 prophecy (as do people have far in advance knowledge of 2012) but we have no clue of what is going to happen and if it can be interpreted any way because its vague, then it makes it useless. What good is that Mayan Prophecy if it doesnt tell us how to change the event?? If the Mayans intended the 2012 date to be a prophecy of doom, then they were stupid when they made it because it wasn't specific enough to do anything to change any future event.

People even today are trying to link the 1999 prophecy to some event, but that was well in the past and what good is that now?? So that is why our version of prophecy is useless.

Because no prophecy has been documented to change an event or even come close to predicting an event, so someone could change it.

If revelations were a true future event, then it would give dates and we would all know its coming and we still may not have been able to stop it!! Now the key would be, to try to change the event. All events would flow together (just like some people THINK they are now) and the event would actually happen, but maybe it would be changed in some way, or stopped all together, but it would still be documented, there would be proof!

I can hear some of what people are thinking already... Some are thinking well that is happening now... all the worlds events are proving that revelations is coming true...

But people have been thinking about this for 1400 years or more!! And it still hasn't happened! So if the prophecy doesn't give dates, revelation as a prophecy is useless. This could go on for another 100,000 years! Who knows when it will happen, but everyone would think it was happening in THEIR LIFETIMES, effectively making them live in fear and not plan for a positive future! Who knows when it will happen? Only god right?!?! Come on. Lets have some common sense. What good is knowing about the prophecy then?

There may be better prophecies out there, but if it does not give dates, names and places, it will do nothing for us. ALSO, it's useless if the names are misspelled or the dates are off even slightly! It has to be 100% accurate for it to be of some positive use.

Originally posted by JudgedCover
reply to post by ghpink

 

The question I have is what is the primary purpose of prophecy? Is to just inform impending events? Is to elicit a response from the group/person given the prophecy to act in a way that allows them to escape the event or change the occurence of the event altogether?

Predicting or changing the future DOES NOT seem to be the primary purpose of prophecy you see...

Because if it was the primary purpose, it would be very specific, as noted above. But it isn't. Prophecy is never specific, so there must be another primary focus of prophecy. This thread was almost hijacked, so I'm glad some are actually asking some logical questions. This is a good question!


But so far, no one in this thread who believes in prophecy, has answered the original posters simple question. I'm not sure why the hundreds of people replying to all the other threads have not bothered to answer this simple question. I know they are reading and watching! WHY SO SILENT???

If you cannot change or even pinpoint the future event, to stop it or know its going to happen before it happens, THEN ... WHAT GOOD IS PROPHECY?

If it cannot EXACTLY predict the future, so that you could change the events, then prophecy is useless for the purpose it was intended and the question asked above is a really good one.

Some may argue the point, that prophecy is not to change a future event, but I don't buy it. That is why most people are interested in prophecy, because they see things happening in life and want to relate that to something concrete within their lives. To change the event, or to help make the event a possibility or to even know the future before it has happened!

This is exactly why most people are attracted to prophecy. We are curious as a species.

But what good is it? What good is prophecy if you cannot tell me tomorrow at 5:00, a plane is going to hit the Washington monument and 100 people will die?

You cannot alter events, unless the prophecy is very specific, and the prophecies ARE NEVER SPECIFIC ENOUGH in order to alter the event! SO IT'S A CATCH 22!

So all we do within the meantime is run around like headless chickens, trying to put coincidental things together but no prophecy (to my knowledge in our modern age), has ever been used to prevent and event.

One thing is certain. That people BELIEVE prophecy is true. Its well known that Hitler had esoteric ideas, knew about Nostradamus, listened to Blavatsky.



The real thing prophecy can do, is actually EFFECT the future, NOT PREVENT OR PREDICT IT!

It can actually make the prophecy become real! It effects the future because people believe in it and some people want the prophecy to be true. This self fulfilling prophecy is prevalent in our culture.

We have to grow up as a society and learn that what we think and what we dwell upon, may become true, not because prophecy is real but because we choose to make it true because we constantly think about it. We will it to happen, WE MAKE IT COME TRUE, or we make it possible to happen. (if it's not to crazy of a prediction)

Its basically what this whole forum is about. Most are feeding in to these ideas and so far, logic and proof shows, that no prophecy said has ever changed any event in history.

Why not instead of choosing revelations... why can't we have prophecies on the other side that talk about good things, like our race growing out in to space? How and when we fix hunger? How and when we find a way to stop war? Or when and where we meet other intelligent life out there? Prophecy always seem to be centered around negativity and fears!

I think prophetic people and ideas, are only the fears of our society coming through. We seem to be a very fearful and insecure race..

Originally posted by Silencedfaith
Just a food for thought: If a prophecy is made by a person called 'A', and 'A' successfully altered the event, the prophecy becomes 'false' because the prophecy could never come true because 'A' had altered, changed or stopped the event. Therefore, a prophecy cannot become real (hence, the prophecy is wrong) because the event had never happened.

Taking into context, that means a prophet who prophesied an air crash because of terrorism for example, had given an exact date on an international interview. The terrorist,who had watched that interview (slim chance?) called off the attack. Hence, the air crash never happened, and caused the prophet to become a false prophet. In this case, prophecy did work... but it became 'false'.

Does that makes sense?

That totally makes sense, and could be true, but we would have no way to verify that it happened...

BUT... there would also be specific events that we knew about, that we couldnt change for what ever reason. Why isn't this recorded in history??

That is a question that should be asked, if you believe in prophecy.

Originally posted by prepared4truth

Originally posted by ghpink
If prophecy really existed, it would be very specific. AND NOT ONLY THAT, there would be a lot of evidence around the prophecy before hand, that would allow you to divert or alter the event, so that it doesn't happen.

But that is not the case.

If prophecy existed, who are you to say what would happen? I could also argue that prophecy would be vague simple BECAUSE it is not meant to help or change the time line substantially, we as humans are supposed to take vague advice and make our own decisions in order to further the future.

I think you are missing the point of the original poster. You are actually arguing the point for this thread.

The original poster claimed that if prophecy was meant to predict the future, then it would be very specific giving dates, names and places. There would be no confusion.

So then it could mean that prophecy was not intended to change or predict the future, but that is what most people want and are using it for. If that is the case, then prophecy as we are using it, is useless.

There could very well be another reason for prophecy, but then lets acknowledge that and stop using prophecy as a possible tool to predict the future.

Also if that is the case, what purpose does prophecy serve?

There are quite a few radio shows where Joe McMoneagle predicted the last two middle Eastern wars. Of course, he's former intell, so one might argue that just because he's psychic doesn't mean he doesn't have other sources. The bad news is, he also predicted a gradual slide into WWIII. Let's hope you're right and prophecy doesn't work.

RC

Originally posted by RedCairo
There are quite a few radio shows where Joe McMoneagle predicted the last two middle Eastern wars. Of course, he's former intell, so one might argue that just because he's psychic doesn't mean he doesn't have other sources. The bad news is, he also predicted a gradual slide into WWIII. Let's hope you're right and prophecy doesn't work.

RC

Yes very true. Also William Cooper predicted 9/11 but that seems to be that he had inside information.

Even in the short term, prophecy is hard to prove...

reply to post by ghpink
ghpink,

Prophecy is not vague by a long shot. The 70 wks. allotted to the Jews and the death of Jesus in the middle of the seventieth wk. of yrs. was very accurate and it told the Jews what was going to happen from the direction they where going and they paid no heed but the wise men read it right and came from afar and arrived at the right time at our Redeemer's birth. Above all it proves the Messian was not an imposter and that prophecy is true by One who does know history in advance. It prophecied His ministry would start 27 AD, He would die 30 AD and His ministry carried on through 33 AD. It was over for the Jews unless they recieved Him and the gospel went to the Gentiles beginning 34 AD. There is too much disinformation out there and it must be sorted out but you must have the Spirit of God to catch it or it isn't for you. That is the answer to your query, You must be a True Christian and One of His or it isn't for you. He didn't mean it to be.

Truthiron

Originally posted by ghpink
The relevant thing is: Can the prophecy can actually warn us about things BEFORE they happen.
So I have a simple question.
Name one prophecy that has happened that someone revealed the nature of it BEFORE the event happened and used it to either prevent the event or at least alter the event.

If Obama would start listening to the prophets of God he would avoid the assassination attempt that is about to happen to him this November...

Originally posted by truthiron
reply to post by ghpink

 

ghpink,

Prophecy is not vague by a long shot. The 70 wks. allotted to the Jews and the death of Jesus in the middle of the seventieth wk. of yrs. was very accurate and it told the Jews what was going to happen from the direction they where going and they paid no heed but the wise men read it right and came from afar and arrived at the right time at our Redeemer's birth. Above all it proves the Messian was not an imposter and that prophecy is true by One who does know history in advance. It prophecied His ministry would start 27 AD, He would die 30 AD and His ministry carried on through 33 AD. It was over for the Jews unless they recieved Him and the gospel went to the Gentiles beginning 34 AD. There is too much disinformation out there and it must be sorted out but you must have the Spirit of God to catch it or it isn't for you. That is the answer to your query, You must be a True Christian and One of His or it isn't for you. He didn't mean it to be.

Truthiron

Okay that is fine. Prophecy may have worked in the time of Jesus, but that cannot be documented or proven at this point in time.

If prophecy is true, then it would be easy to find examples of this, in our modern day and age, where we could verify it.

So why isn't this the case?

This event you are talking about happened 2000 years ago! Hard to verify. If prophecy is valid, why isn't there a better and more recent example? Even a good example in the last 300 years!

Why don't we find many prophets, really coming close to telling the future, or even 1 case of someone telling the future, without all this vague information?

You'd think one prophet in history would have not had to hide his prophecy. In this day and age, there is no reason to hide your prophecy. With Nostradamus and the church, I will give him that. But we live free.

Why isn't there just one good example?

reply to post by rcchristian


What do you mean at the time of Jesus? As a person who enjoys to study about religion. Jesus is viewed by many different people. A lot of them if not all use some forum of text to say he was foretold. Yet that is a very controversial subject. Since Jesus is presented in so many different images; as well verses having different meanings to them. Then what proof do we that this Jesus is true and the others are false?

reply to post by ghpink


"In one account, the visionary was challenged by a skeptic, the Seigneur de Florinville, while staying at his chateau in the province of Lorraine . Nostradamus was shown two suckling pigs, one black, the other white. Florinville then asked Nostradamus to predict which they would eat that night for supper. Nostradamus replied they would eat the black pig. Florinville then told the cook to prepare the white pig. That evening at dinner, Nostradamus was again asked which pig they were eating, and again he replied the black one. Florinville triumphantly asked the cook to tell which pig it was that they were eating. The cook said that while preparing the white pig a tamed wolf cub had wandered into the kitchen and devoured it. The cook then slaughtered the remaining black pig and prepared it for the dinner."



that was a specific prediction, for a specific date, that was attempted to be altered and still came true...

does that prove your thread is a fail??

let the reader decide...

Originally posted by prepared4truth

Originally posted by ghpink
If prophecy really existed, it would be very specific. AND NOT ONLY THAT, there would be a lot of evidence around the prophecy before hand, that would allow you to divert or alter the event, so that it doesn't happen.

But that is not the case.

As to your thing about prophecies not helping divert, this is also not true. You or I don't know what happens behind the scenes and catastrophes could be avoided everyday without our knowing. Also, if you've ever personally had your "fortune read" by a true seer, you will know that vague advice is just enough to make you aware when things happen. Of course you don't live everyday by it, but coupled with intuition and logic, prophecy can be very helpful.

Here is a thought along those lines....one of webbots timestamps for disaster was 335 est. which is 5 min after the shuttle would have launched if not for whatever error was found. Not sure where Im going with this exactly but there seems to be a connection there.

Originally posted by Setoman

Originally posted by ghpink
The relevant thing is: Can the prophecy can actually warn us about things BEFORE they happen.
So I have a simple question.
Name one prophecy that has happened that someone revealed the nature of it BEFORE the event happened and used it to either prevent the event or at least alter the event.

If Obama would start listening to the prophets of God he would avoid the assassination attempt that is about to happen to him this November...

Ummm yeah.

Okay

When is this supposed to happen in November?? Any specific dates?

You ask why prophecy can't be used to divert future disasters? Actually it did in the case of Jonah. In his story after the bit about the whale he went to Nineveh and told them that due to their wickedness they were to be destroyed.

The king of Nineveh took him seriously and he and his people repented for what they did . And God stayed the destruction.

So it is possible to do it. But when it comes to end time prophesy the problem is that they are sealed to the time of the end. See Daniel 12. That's why there has been false alarms in the past. They are not supposed to be understood until they are already happening!

Also I am going to give the other reason why they cannot be understood.

Book of Hosea and Leviticus 26.

Simplified. Back in the first century AD the curse of Malachi was triggered. And oddly enough the main details of the curse are in Hosea and Leviticus 26. To put it simply because Elijah was unable to do his assigned job in the first century AD the world was slammed with a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse.

Until the curse is over prophecy will not work properly. It's a gift from God and he is not in a giving mood at the moment.

reply to post by rcchristian
rcchristian and others,

The truth of most of the prophecies are hidden from most as it wans't given to to be understood by all. The prophecy of the 2300 days of Dan. 8: is the one that very few oill ever understand. It reaches into our time, it was the time that the prophecies of Dan. 8: where to start, "the time of the end". Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. That is not the only verse in the chap. that reveals that but I can not here go into the full explanation of it as it is very lengthy and when I got done none would probably recieve it anyway. It wasn't meant that anything could be changed, it is for the true ones information.

One of the main thrusts is after 2300 yrs. ( day for a yr. ) the Sanctuary was to be cleansed. The whole thing is very spiritually discerned but I will tell you this, this happen Rev. 4:. A door was opened in Heaven's Sanctuary, What door? The door to the most Holy, at the Throne. Well who enters? Our High Priest, Jesus, Yahshua of course to cleanse the Sanctuary. He cleansed it and is now still ministering there until He stands up, then it is finished.

When did this prophecy start?, it started the same time the prophecy of the seventy wks. alloted to the Jews.

This prophecy is understood now by a very few and will be understood by but very few more. It is a prophecy for one thing also of Yahweh, Yahshua's last furious indignation with sin as is revealed.- Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. Then verses following depict the trouble Iran Iraq Israel etc. over there. The indignation of God used there is very hot. You should look up that one in the Hebrew dictionary.

What good is it? None to those who don't understand it and there will come a time He will reveal when He is coming as He tells us - Am 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

I am not a prolific writter and I find long threads are meaningless to most as the attention span is not held when nothing is given to hold it. I scan most of them to see if there is any "meat" and if there isn't I leave it. Nor do I like videos people post as they can not be scanned to see if I want to spend the time. We can u2u each other and I want them to be concise also. Going way up and around robin hoods barn is a waste of time.

There is about as many ideas of prophecy as there is people it seems, like opinions, everyone has one.

Truthiron

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by rcchristian

 

What do you mean at the time of Jesus? As a person who enjoys to study about religion. Jesus is viewed by many different people. A lot of them if not all use some forum of text to say he was foretold. Yet that is a very controversial subject. Since Jesus is presented in so many different images; as well verses having different meanings to them. Then what proof do we that this Jesus is true and the others are false?

What I mean is this.

If prophecy has any validity to it, there would be examples at the time of Jesus (you are all clearly pointing these out) and these cannot be verified because we have no controls if we even have the original material or if the person even said the things they did in the exact way they did.

But today, we have those controls because of the media and the internet.

So we should be able to prove if its true or not.

If someone claims something, now they can be very specific and it can be documented that they said it before it had happened and we can actually take actions to try to prevent it.

This is why I agree that prophecy doesn't work. If it did, we would have more examples. And in fact in the last 100 years, we have few good examples and 0 proven examples of how they work.

So stop posting things about Daniel and Jesus because its impossible to verify. Why not just post 1 prophecy from 1 person in the last 50 years, that they made and it came true.

The reason is, because you can't

Originally posted by ntech
You ask why prophecy can't be used to divert future disasters? Actually it did in the case of Jonah. In his story after the bit about the whale he went to Nineveh and told them that due to their wickedness they were to be destroyed.

The king of Nineveh took him seriously and he and his people repented for what they did . And God stayed the destruction.

So it is possible to do it. But when it comes to end time prophesy the problem is that they are sealed to the time of the end. See Daniel 12. That's why there has been false alarms in the past. They are not supposed to be understood until they are already happening!

Also I am going to give the other reason why they cannot be understood.

Book of Hosea and Leviticus 26.

Simplified. Back in the first century AD the curse of Malachi was triggered. And oddly enough the main details of the curse are in Hosea and Leviticus 26. To put it simply because Elijah was unable to do his assigned job in the first century AD the world was slammed with a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse.

Until the curse is over prophecy will not work properly. It's a gift from God and he is not in a giving mood at the moment.

This is a perfect example of something we cannot verify further.

If prophecy works, you should have more examples of them working, that are not 2000 years old.

Get it?

If you do, simply give me one. Just one That is all I'm asking!

reply to post by ghpink


What ever.

If you where right, then the gov can get out of my life, but they do not.