Proof that prophecy doesn't work

reply to post by ghpink


The question I have is what is the primary purpose of prophecy? Is to just inform impending events? Is to elicit a response from the group/person given the prophecy to act in a way that allows them to escape the event or change the occurence of the event altogether?

If it's the latter, then many events prophesied will not occur IF the targeted group of that prophecy responded appropriately. Therefore, it would be hard to gauge the accuracy of the prophecy since it never occured, but that is only because the prophecy's true purpose succeeded.

I personally believe in both kinds of prophecies. I believe some events are set in a stone while others can be avoided and the response to the prophecy of such events determines the outcomes for individuals or entire nations.

There are even some cases where prophecy simply does just inform. For example, the Apostle Paul was prophesied to that beforehand that if he went on his next missionary journey he would be bound, arrested and executed. This prophecy came true, but Paul did not change his plans at all in spite of his acknowledgement of the prophecy's validity.

Originally posted by SevenThunders
reply to post by ghpink

 

Excellent point and good question. The Bible is up to this challenge my friend. Consider this warning that Jesus gave to his followers from Luke 21.

20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21“Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

When the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, they first surrounded the city under the Roman general Cestius Gallus. However mysteriously they pulled back. In fact the Jews of the day scored a surprise victory against Cestius when he retreated, giving them a false sense of confidence.

During this pause in the attack, christians who knew of Jesus' prophecy fled Jerusalem just as commanded. They were all spared, but when the Roman armies returned under Titus it was horrendous for the citizens of that city. They starved them out to the point where women were eating their own babies to survive. Interesting, even during Titus' attack he mysteriously pulled his armies back and allowed a temporary relief of the siege. During this time more christians fled Jerusalem. It is thought that Titus had heard word of Nero's death. Returning to the siege he laid waste to Jerusalem.
christeternalchristianchurch.com...

not a great comment, considering roman soldiers were all around in that area to begin with, luke has been said to be written in various dates from after the destruction of temple, and prove that jesus prophecied it from just a few years before 70ad when rome was already occupying a lot of that region anyhoo, when there was trouble about anyway with jews for jesus and the jews who rejected and with all the gentile converts and noone really agreeing, i could only imagine the arguements going on at that time

just because it was written by luke who never even met jesus EVER, doesnt mean he said it
YEARS and YEARS after his death

to say this is a true and correct prophecy is not correct

reply to post by ghpink


["its pretty scary because you cannot use logic on these people.']

For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.-1Corinthians

To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.-2Corinthians2.6

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.-Hebrews4.8

Originally posted by Rustami
reply to post by ghpink

 

["its pretty scary because you cannot use logic on these people.']

For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.-1Corinthians

To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.-2Corinthians2.6

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.-Hebrews4.8

edit on 12-10-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)

joshua was one of the most genocidal maniacs in the bible, the moment he took over after moses, nothing but killings and destruction

ah but even zechariah had a vision of him being plucked from the fire

it shows that he was guilty in death, it was only after his death and in the presence of god was he forgiven

hmmm, so you dont need to repent before hand?

see we all go back to where we came from, we are apart of everything

reply to post by MurderCityDevil


Same can be said of George Washington or Abraham Lincoln, Napoleon, ah you get the point.

If you'll allow me to present one observation.

If the God of the Bible had ONE prime directive that had to occur in spite of man's free will and the law of His own love of the world and that one directive was the advent of the Messiah, then what measure had to be taken, what interventions had to be made by God throughout human history to ensure the fulfillment of this promise?

If God made a promise to one man based on his amazing display of faith and rewarded the offspring of he and his wife the honor of giving birth to this Messiah then any threat to the complete genocide of that race and it's manifest destiny would have to be met with drastic measures throughout the course of human history and against the free will of those whose hearts were filled with evil and hate.

So if this were true, in the interest of love and preservation of humanity, some of humanity would have to meet with death and destruction lest the whole thing be destroyed.

Also, let's not forget since you brought the example of Joshua, the first military campaign against Canaan against the city of Jericho, all citizens were killed....

...except for the local single-mom whore and her kids. If the God of the Old Testament was a cruel and blood-thristy God, then why were the only survivors of this city a person whom most of society then and even to this very day deems one of the lowest forms of said society...a prostitute?

The reason she was spared is because she did not get in the way of God's ultimate plan to save mankind from themselves. God did not judge her on the choices she had made in life or morality, but rather her willingness to recognize who He was and get on board with what He was doing, even if she at the time didn't fully realize what that was. It's always noteworthy, that not only was the prostitute Rahab spared, she was also given the honor of being a descendant of both King David and Jesus Christ according to the Bible.

reply to post by MurderCityDevil


["it shows that he was guilty in death, it was only after his death and in the presence of god was he forgiven']

Romans7-
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

2Corinthians5-
one died for all, and therefore all died.

John8.58-
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Hebrews9.11-
that is to say, not a part of this creation.

Originally posted by ghpink
What good is prophecy if its so vague?

Originally posted by prepared4truth
Also, if you've ever personally had your "fortune read" by a true seer, you will know that vague advice is just enough to make you aware when things happen.

I am not religious, so "all these religious people" are not the only ones answering your question. Prophecy, however, has nothing to do with religion. Religion claims to bring prophecy. If this doesn't answer your question, I would gladly answer you outside the context of religion again, until you understand that the content of the prophecy is not important; it's the perspective one takes it from.

P.S.- Because of your reply to Anthony1138, I can see that you will not accept an answer to be "interesting" unless it agrees with your current perspective, thus you have effectively closed your mind to the possibilities. If I'm wrong, show me that you've thought of other scenarios maybe?

Originally posted by dakota1s2

If you really want to see prophecy that has been prophysied before hand and can be proven, there is one source I know of that has never missed. Not once in hundreds if not thousands of prophecies(events predicted) has there been an error. Right on 100% of the time

Where can you find such predictions that have all come true.....

Why of course, The Bible... and if I need to give you 5 or 10 thats fine. Now here's the best part. There are many more prophecys that have yet to be fufilled. And as much as I can promise anything...I promise you...every one of the rest will also come true. Good for some.....Bad for some.
Just my 2 cents

I think the original poster was asking for examples with dates and times and in that case, the bible does not provide any. Unless you know of some?

If you apply *any prophecy* to any bad situation, it will eventually match perfectly over time (this is known and verified). So the key the OP I think was trying to make was if a date and place was given, it would constitute a real prophecy and could be proven and useful.

In speaking of revelations (because you mention the bible) it isn't clear on any dates and over the last 2000 years, has been used to say the world was ending in EVERY AGE.

There hasn't been a time since, that people haven't said this is the time of revelations. Don't you find that odd?

reply to post by Rustami


Not to be rude to you. Don't use Bible verses. Because they don't really prove anything. Look for articles that present evidence to someone in the past. Anyone can disclaim you claim so try to confirm your evidence.

Originally posted by prophecy4
There are several prophecies in the Bible in detail that specifically say that in the last days Israel would be brought back into their borders and restablished as a nation. That happened in 1948. They hadn't been an official nation under their own power since Babylon.

Another prophecy specifically stated that they would take back Jerusalem after they were put back in the land. That happened in 1967.

So many people have tried to wipe out the Jews that it was highly unlikely that they would become one of the most powerful nations in the middle east. Believe what you want, but prophecy is real.

Your missing the point of the original poster.

He intimated that it doesn't matter if prophecy is real or not (it very well could be) but he said that if dates were not given, then it couldn't be used i any way to prevent the incident. So whether its real or not, it would be useless.

The power of belief sometimes outweighs reason

reply to post by rcchristian


I do agree with that. I could say that I predicted an attack on the WTC randomly right now and say I knew about before hand. Without using any evidence to support my claim or anything.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


if you'll stop using your own words or other mens words/writing/articles/books in attempt to persuade people to your unbelief-then I'll think about it

reply to post by Rustami


What words to you want me to use? If you want people to believe you would have to offer proof.
Learn and let touch!

reply to post by rcchristian


["He intimated that it doesn't matter if prophecy is real or not (it very well could be) but he said that if dates were not given, then it couldn't be used i any way to prevent the incident. So whether its real or not, it would be useless.The power of belief sometimes outweighs reason"]

it saved and saves peoples lives that believe in truth and are reasonable

when those being heavily persecuted in many eastern nations today(is that day enough?) and the day(or that?) they decide to flee it saves their lives and whoever is willing to follow from that

When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
-Matthew10.23

then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

CHRISTIANS – THE MOST PERSECUTED PEOPLE GROUP ON EARTH-
There are now more than 300 million Christians who are either threatened with violence or legally discriminated against simply because of their faith – more than any other religion. Christians are no longer, as far as I am aware, thrown to the lions. But from China, North Korea and Malaysia, through India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka to Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, they are subjected to legalised discrimination, violence, imprisonment, relocation and forced conversion. Even in supposedly Christian Europe, Christianity has become the most mocked religion, its followers treated with public suspicion and derision.
jmm.aaa.net.au...

But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.-Luke17

reply to post by Rustami


Everyone of any faith and non faith has been persecuted. Christians, Jews, Muslims and even Atheist have been attacked or killed for what they believe in life. I believe Muslims are more threatened then Christians are.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by Rustami

 

What words to you want me to use? If you want people to believe you would have to offer proof.
Learn and let touch!

how about these words that state lies in the bible

jeremiah 8:8 'How can you say, "We are wise because we have the word of the LORD," when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?

romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?


what lies are they talking about? hmmmmm

reply to post by MurderCityDevil


I don't know what lies are the Bible talking about? Or is it the lies you don't believe in?

Prophecy is true in some sense because nobody has mentioned self fulling prophecies... Some people will want a prophecy to be true so badly they will indeed try to influence the future to fit the prophecy... I know of christians who are foaming at the mouth for revelations and rapture to happen and this can be very dangerous for all of mankind... If you are going to take into account any of them it would have to be the ones that could not be influenced by men like natural disasters or cosmic events far beyond anyones control..

reply to post by MurderCityDevil


did I not just show you that verse in Jeremiah the other day when you were boasting of the law? also you forgot to show a key part to that verse in Romans that starts with-"Someone might argue"

reply to post by Rustami


i was not boasting the law

that verse does not start with some might argue

over and over paul steals from the church, he tricks with guile and he delivers to satan