My personal take on Freemasonry, why i didn't join.

reply to post by defcon5


I am a bit confused at how you are against our tolerance for what others call God. After all, that is what it boils down to. If a Muslim calls him Allah, and a Christian calls him God, who cares about terminology as long as people are calling him. Or do you feel that unless he is called God, he is a false prophet? I am quite sure one of us is misunderstanding something.

reply to post by defcon5


so by that definition, are you against all other religions who don't put Jesus Christ as the son of God? Even though they still hold the monotheistic faith in belief of one true God?

I was raised Catholic and while I disagree with much the church has to offer, I consider myself a Christian. I just know that as long as someone believes in God in the sense that I see him, they are pretty much on the same page as me. The God I believe in will accept any and all people who believe in him and try to live by his word.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by kingmonty
All the trademark holidays (Even Christmas and Easter) are pagan.

The ONLY Christian holiday that is Pagan is Christmas.

Let's see... Easter is the first Sunday after the full moon following the Spring Equinox. Right. Nothing pagan about that...

Originally posted by defcon5

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

reply to post by network dude

 

In a nutshell this is what most Christians believe:
*snip*


I know of no other gods that resemble that outside of Christianity.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

I know of plenty, Zues, Odin, Brahma, (and since you seem to exclude it) Yahweh, among many, many others.
How sure of yourself you must be to feel superior to these other beliefs, some dead and gone other living and vibrant.
better to me to be tolerant of others.
Perhaps by practicing the piety, tolerance, temperance, and respect the Christianity espouses, more converts would be won?

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Let's see... Easter is the first Sunday after the full moon following the Spring Equinox. Right. Nothing pagan about that...

As well as the fact that the word "Easter" is derived from the goddess Eostre. Christianity is "pagan" in the sense that it is sort of the Jewish version of Osirianism. As a mystery religion, Christianity was in competition with Mithraism, and eventually won out, although, at heart, the two have many more similarities than differences.

reply to post by Masonic Light

I'd really like to go to Ethiopa where some of the earliest forms of Christianity are still practiced.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
If you had trusted your instincts about the men and the history, and if you had decided to join,

Wow, that doesn't sound like something a cult member would say

Originally posted by SirKnightE
reply to post by BluePillOrRedPill

 

Jesus Christ is MY lord and personal saviour, Masonry does not restrict anyone from there chosen deity. But fortunately most of these socalled "secrets" in masonry are based out of the same book I read from on a daily basis. I gaurantee you all of our secrets are found righ tin the Holy Bible.

Since you're such an avid fan of the Bible here are a couple of passages for you to read:

Isaiah 48:16
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

John 18:19-20
The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine. 20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Let's see... Easter is the first Sunday after the full moon following the Spring Equinox. Right. Nothing pagan about that...

As well as the fact that the word "Easter" is derived from the goddess Eostre. Christianity is "pagan" in the sense that it is sort of the Jewish version of Osirianism. As a mystery religion, Christianity was in competition with Mithraism, and eventually won out, although, at heart, the two have many more similarities than differences.

Easter is wholly pagan, but you don't find any mention of it in the scriptures. You misunderstand history. Christianity was infiltrated by false teachers and paganized. It was actually foretold to happen by Jesus and the Apostle Paul.

And if you're really interested in how true Christianity is practiced look to the group known as Jehovah's Witnesses.

There is a reason they don't celebrate holidays, such as Easter, and Christmas, or birthdays. Because they are aware of their pagan origins. In fact Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones who have stripped apostate Christianity of all of its pagan roots and went back to the beginning and worship the way the first century Christians did, pure worship of the only true God.

Actually Jesus prophezied it would happen just as it did in an illustration perhaps you seem to be unaware of. You see he told his followers that his enemy came and sowed weeds in among the wheat during the night. His servants upon seeing the weeds growing asked the master if they should uproot them, the master said, not to until the harvest, lest the uproot some of the wheat along with the weeds.

Then he explained the meaning of the parable:


(Matthew 13:37-43) . . .“The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


The Devil sowed weeds or fake Christians in among the real ones. Until by the third century a great apostasy had developed just as foretold:


(2 Thessalonians 2:3) 3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.

Slowly philosophers entered into the Church and took their pagan teachings, and Greek ideas and changed the meaning of Christianity, and by the third century the pagan Emperor Constantine while still holding the title of Pontifix Maximus over his pagan religion made that apostate Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. And all of the pagan holidays and ceremonies of the pagans of Rome were incorporated into the apostazied Church.

Just because you see paganism running rampant in Christendom, that does not mean Christianity came from paganism. That's a fools story you've been lead to believe.

Jesus said that the harvest was the conclusion of the system of things. And that at the end of the days he would separate his people out from among the false religions of Christendom. And thus, you see in this our day a restoration to pure Christianity by God's real followers.

Here's a couple of quotes about that:

The Encyclopedia Canadiana

The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era.” Referring to the Witnesses, the New Catholic Encyclopedia notes: “They regard the Bible as their only source of belief and rule of conduct.

If you're interested in some of the similarities between the two here are a few more quotes:

Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics

: “The view was widely prevalent in the early Church that war is an organized iniquity with which the Church and the followers of Christ can have nothing to do.

Australian Encyclopaedia

Jehovah’s Witnesses maintain a strict neutrality in time of war.

Edward Gibbon's - The History of the Decline and fall of the Roman Empire:

It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.

The book Paganism in our Christianity:

Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon [a coequal Trinity], and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘Trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.

Here's a quote by the Catholics on the above mentioned on the pagan origin of the Trinity as found in the New Catholic Encyclopedia:

They [Jehovah’s Witnesses] condemn the Trinity as pagan idolatry . . . They consider Jesus as the greatest of Jehovah’s Witnesses, ‘a god’ (so they translate John 1.1), inferior to no one but to Jehovah. . . . He died as a man and was raised as an immortal spirit Son.

These are but a very very few quotes. Here are some similarities between first century Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses:

Both consider themselves part of God's kingdom and are thus no part of the world. Neither would involve themselves in the politics of the world.

First century Christians were persecuted for not celebrating many of the holidays and festivities in pagan Rome that were later adopted in apostate Christianity, such as the Saturnalia, they did not celebrate birthdays.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate holidays based in pagan origins, and are scorned by the world for it.


All first century Christians were preachers that went from house to house. All Jehovah's Witnesses are ministers that preach public ally and from house to house.

The first century Christians did not hold titles, there were no divisions in a laity and a clergy. Among Jehovah's Witnesses there is no clergy.

Finally a list ofstriking resemblances between primitive Christianity and Jehovah's Witnesses that make them very separate and distinct from all other religions on earth? Here is a quote (many people are actually amazed to learn about this if they did not know)

They have no clergy class.
˘ Their elders, teachers, and missionaries
are unsalaried.
˘ They neither tithe nor take up money
collections at their places of worship,
known as Kingdom Halls.
˘ All their activities are supported by
anonymous donations.
˘ They remain neutral with regard to
politics.
˘ They advocate peace and do not participate
in warfare.
˘ They are globally united in their faith
and Bible-based beliefs.
˘ They are fully integrated, with no social,
ethnic, racial, or class divisions.
˘ They are not affiliated with any other
religion, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or
Protestant.

Bible teachings that separate Jehovah's Witnesses from all other religions of Christendom, that mirror those of the first century Christians:

They believe that there is only one true God, whose name is Jehovah.

˘ They do not believe that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, nor do they believe in the Trinity doctrine.

˘ They follow the teachings of Jesus and honor him as the Son of God.

˘ They do not venerate the cross, nor do they use idols in their worship.

˘ They do not believe in a fiery hell where all bad people go after death.

˘ They believe that God will bless obedient mankind with perfect everlasting life in an earthly paradise.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that they have successfully reestablished first-century Christianity, the form of Christianity that Jesus’ apostles practiced.


The Bible itself states that in the last days the pure form of worship would be reestablished, and it has. And it is not in any obsucure place. Rather it is a drawing out of people from all walks of life, from every social strata, from every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and a unifying of these people. Yes, the words of Isaiah have had a LITERAL fulfillment in that mighty nation of people now numbering over 7 million from out of all the nations. They have become united by love, and by pure teaching, and have taught the world who look son in utter amazement that real peace among all mankind is really possible today:

"And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." - Isaiah 2:3, 4.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by getreadyalready
If you had trusted your instincts about the men and the history, and if you had decided to join,

Wow, that doesn't sound like something a cult member would say

So a cult member encourages people to see for themselves? I don't think so. I cult member would try everything to convince a potential naive recruit that their way is the only true way. I Mason does not recruit first of all, but if approached by an interested party, they tell about their own experiences, and they decide if they are willing to sign a petition from the interested party to help them learn more. Then after a thorough background check, and an interview from an "investigations committee" then they get to begin the degree work.

I think the rest of my post clarified that pretty well. If someone has a problem trusting their mentors and friends, then they certainly should not join Masonry. No pressure, no cult.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by getreadyalready
If you had trusted your instincts about the men and the history, and if you had decided to join,

Wow, that doesn't sound like something a cult member would say

So a cult member encourages people to see for themselves?

No, a cult teaches its members how to identify good "instincts" and bad "instincts"

reply to post by defcon5

Originally posted by defcon5
I doubt that the majority have studied anything about pagan religion, Gnosticism, or the occult. To most its simply a club/charity and nothing more.

I guess this varies from area to area. In the US, where the majority of Masons are Christian, this may well be true. In other area, such as India, which has a huge masonic presence, and is predominantly Hindu, I am certain that almost all of them have studied the occult.

I know that you're told explanations, but not I am not so sure they are the REAL explanations rather then good sounding substitutes.

For example, You most likely know that the Easter Star is a symbol for Venus, which going back to the Ancient Greeks was known as Lucifer (“The Light Bearer”). Did you know that this same entity, according to occult sources, reigns over the realm of air, represented by the colors blue and silver, the same colors seen throughout Freemasonry?

From a Christian's point of view, there is this:

Revelation 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

From an occult point of view:

In the occult sources you mention, lucifer's colour is indeed blue, being the colour of the sly and water. White and Silver are secondary colours. Furthermore, in those same sources, lucifer's direction is East, being the source of sacred wisdom. But what is of vital importance here is that in those occult sources, lucifer is not the fallen angel of the bible, but rather a name given to an understanding of oneself. Without knowing the self one cannot hope to achieve any real understanding of anything else. If you are going to accept these occult 'attributes' of lucifer, you must acknowledge that the 'lucifer' in question is a philosophy, and not a deity, since the explanation of the word comes from the same source as the description of its attributes.

Do not make the (preconceived) mistake of linking the word lucifer in your mind to a fallen angel if you are quoting attributes from occult sources which clearly state that there is no relation whatsoever between the philosophy of enlightenment and Christianity.

Whether or not the similarities are coincidental or by design, mixing sources invalidates the argument.

Another example is the respect shown to the first artificers, Jubal/Tubal Cain. These two men were not only descendants of Cain, but also produced the first weapons used to murder other men, the first musical instruments, and the first alcohol. They are mentioned in several sources as having been possessed by demons, as well as using alcohol and music to inflame the lusts of people and seduce the children of Seth.

The reasons for the appearance of the children of Lamech in our allegories have to do with the legend of the construction of the first pillars, and because Tubal Cain was the founder of the craft in which Hiram Abiff excelled. It is significant that Tubal Cain was chosen as a key figure in the ritual over a builder (which would be more applicable to the craft) because the first builder of a city, according to the old testament, was Cain, a murderer.

So you feel its acceptable for someone who considers themselves a Christian to belong to an organization whom either intentionally or coincidentally has symbolism such as I mentioned above?

Yes, I do.

Firstly, because as I have mentioned above, I disagree with your interpretation of the symbolism. Secondly, because although the ritual has many sources and origins, all of it promotes the values taught in Christianity.

However, one's acceptance or non-acceptance of Freemasonry must necessarily depend on their own interpretation, both of their religious beliefs, and of the symbolism contained within Freemasonry. Thus, Freemasonry is not for everyone.

Just the fact that masons seem to always defend these types of issues, and never seem to question them is the most telling aspect in my opinion.

According to me, masons may have already questioned these issues, discovered the truth, and are therefore now justified in defending them.

That is the biggest problem that my religion has with Freemasonry, the generalization of God into one generic god.

It is not a generic God - there is only one God.

Christianity:
"Hear, oh Israel, the lord thy God is one." (Old testament)
"...indeed God is one" (New testament)

Judaism:
"Hear, oh Israel, the Lord thy God is one." (Torah)

Islam:
There is only one God, and Muhammed is his prophet. (Qu'ran)

Hindu:
"There is only one God, not a second; not at all, not at all, not in the least bit." (Brahma Sutra)

I do not hold that my God is the same God that other religions consider to be their gods. I have spent time in and around other religions, I have attended services with other religions, but I do not pray to their gods.

In my opinion, the acknowledgment of the existence of other gods makes your belief polytheistic.

I tried to write that as carefully as possible, yet maybe I did not convey it correctly. To me there are unchristian aspects to masonry; others of other religions may have no issue with these things.

This depends on your interpretation of those aspects, and I have no right to say you that are wrong. However, other Christians who interpret their religion differently may feel that there is nothing unchristian about Freemasonry.

I understand that its about moral lessons and such, but isn’t the end goal to attain a type of godhood, similar to other religions such as gnosticism?

No, I don't believe so.

In my opinion, the ultimate goal of Freemasonry is to study the hidden mysteries of nature and science, the better to know our maker.

I would like to become a mason, i live in south africa, what do i need to do?
a reply to: SirKnightE

I am agnostic, and mostly identify with the pagans. I have family members that are or have been masons. I would like to thank those masonic folks for providing, what I assume, honest answers to the questions that you could.

We all must find out inner peace, if the masons are able to allow some to find their inner peace, who are any of you to denigrate this organization?