Revelation; "A time, times, and half a time"

My discussion of the timeline of Revelation will be completed by the next and final thread in the series, which will deal with the last two chapters.

Now that the series is about to be completed, I would like to advise anyone who may be interested that there will, in due course, be an Index thread, intended to help people navigate their way around the whole collection.

Why this interpretation of Revelation has a chronology

I come to Revelation as a student of history.
I see Revelation as a chronicle, and I treat it in exactly the same way as I would any other source document (the fact that it is describing events in the future instead of events in the past is only a minor complication).
In other words, I try to get past the obscure descriptions and the disjointed chronology in order to establish exactly what happen and in what order, and why one thing leads on to another.

The procedure justifies itself, in my mind, by the fact that it works. That is to say, it seems to produce a narrative sequence with a clear storyline, one that is coherent and self-consistent.
(I was particularly gratified by the smooth way that the "seven kings" passage slotted into it. I came into this project with no thoughts on the "seven kings", so this was an unexpected bonus)

That is why my interpretation of Revelation has a chronological structure.
I've tried to demonstrate this in various places.
The "War on the Saints" thread is one of them.
The "Time, times, and half a time" thread is another.
It will be seen in the "Timeline" index of threads.
This is not a "timeless allegory", but a history.

The predictions of Revelation

Many interpretations of Revelation produce "timelines" of future events, which are filled with elaborate detail.
I do understand Revelation as pointing towards future events, but my interpretation is much less detailed.
For me, this is a picture painted with fairly broad brush-strokes.

Nevertheless, I do see a rough sequence of events.
And here is my brief summary of what Revelation is "predicting".

1. A persecution of the church, implied in the background of ch1.
2. The great crisis of ch6, the "4 Horsemen" episode. I took this to be God's reaction to the previous persecution.
3. The rise of the two "Beasts" of ch13, the great world-state and its leader. This implies a recovery from the events of ch6, so I suggested that the Beasts might rise to power on the strength of leading the world out of that crisis.
4. The renewed persecution of the church by the Beast.
5. The destructive catastrophe of the Trumpets and Vials.
6. Finally, the Return of Christ and the "winding-up" of the old world.

This product contains no dates

In this series, I've been putting together my own version of a "timeline" of Revelation events.
But I made no attempt whatever to tie them in with the current calendar.
I haven't been trying to calculate exactly when the times of "tribulation" might start or finish.

There are reasons for this.

In the first place, Jesus himself refused to give any indication of time. He told his disciples that it was "not for them to know" the times which the Father had set. Why on earth should we think that we're entitled to acquire knowledge which they weren't allowed to know? But everybody knows that quotation.

There's also the pragmatic point, that so many calculations have been made and proved wrong in the past.

I'm also convinced that trying to calculate exact intervals of years from one event to another is a waste of time, because this is not the way God works. There is no reason to think that God lays out events at exact time-intervals, so there is no point in trying to second-guess his calculations.

As a test case, let's take the "seventy years" predicted by Jeremiah.
Jeremiah told Jerusalem that "these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years" (Jeremiah ch25 v11), that God would punish Babylon "when seventy years are completed" (ch25 v12), and that he would bring the exiles back from Babylon "when seventy years are completed for Babylon" (ch29 v10).
So if God is working with exact time-intervals, there should be seventy years between the destruction of Jerusalem and the fall of Babylon.
But the records of history tell us that the respective dates were 587 B.C. and 539 B.C. This is not an exact seventy year interval.
The explanation is probably that "seventy" is a symbolic number, one that keeps appearing in the Bible and Jewish tradition. It combines "7", the number which points us towards God, with "10", the number which points towards completeness or perfection. So "seventy years" means "the complete period which God has assigned".

And I suspect that exact calculations based on the implied "seven years" of Daniel ch9 v27 will go astray for exactly the same reason. We need to recognise how often numbers are part of the symbolism,

The purpose of Revelation is the building of faith, in order to motivate the "patient endurance of the saints".
But date-calculation may be a symptom of impatience, an unconscious attempt to reduce the necessity of endurance.
And a failed date-calculation, after the event can be a very effective killer of faith.
Faith would be patient and willing to wait for God to do things in his own time.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I always thought the situation in Africa (famine, disease) fits in with the fourth horseman. But then again it could also be coming up as something much more major than that...

reply to post by timeoftheend

In my two threads on the 4 Horsemen, I argued that they were God's response to the world's persecution of the church. That's their context in Revelation (persecution already happening ch1, God prepares his response chs 4&5, then strikes).
That was why I was arguing that it ought to be the world at large, rather than a random portion of the earth, and would still be in the future (because we haven't had the major persecution of the church yet).

There is now an Index, covering all these Revelation threads, at this location;

Index of Revelation threads

This thread is numbered as #15 in the "order of chapters" list and Biblical reference index.

Just to clarify;
Nothing in the OP is intended to suggest any particular prophetic significance in the year 2012 or the date 21/12/2012

reply to post by DISRAELI


My response to the claims made about the year 2012 was that I could see no prophetic significance in the date.
This position seems to have been vindicated.

a reply to: DISRAELI

From what I gather based on your explanations in various threads, the order of events can be boiled down to this as I see it. This is the way it currently makes the most sense to me :

1. Great Tribulation period, Sixth seal - marter's

2. Day of the Lord

3. Saints still present on earth are given the seal of God on their forehead

4. Seventh seal is opened, ushering in the seven trumpet judgments

5. Temple of God built and measured, and handed over to the "beast from the bottomless pit" Apollyon.

6. The Two Witnesses are sent to crash the "beasts" parade, who I refer to as the 'party crashers', which puts an end to the "Great Tribulation" period. Rev 12-13 is a retelling of that entire period.

7. The saints that were sealed with the seal of God are "caught up" in the sky and brought out of the way prior to the coming seven vials judgement, as shown in the scriptures below describing the saints standing on a sea of glass, which is symbolic of earth.

The Jewish saints: (Revelation 14:1-3) "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. [2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: [3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

The Gentile saints: (Revelation 15:1-2) "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. [2] And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

(Revelation 17:15) "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

(Revelation 20:13) "And the sea (earth) gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

8. Jesus Christ finally arrives on the scene with his army to kick some serious ass.

(Revelation 19:11-16) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

9. The "beast from the bottomless", and the false prophet gets tossed into the lake of fire.

(Revelation 19:20) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

9. Satan gets imprisoned in the lake of fire, and the millennial reign of Christ ensues.

(Revelation 20:1-3) "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

10. The millennial period ends, Satan gets tossed in the lake of fire with the beast and false prophet, starting the great white throne judgement, causing the heaven's and earth to pass away.

(Revelation 20:11-12) "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

11. A new heaven and earth is created, and the Father descends from heaven with New Jerusalem to dwell with his creation on earth for all eternity.

Its only after your explanations, and coming into it with the mindset that Revelation is a blow by blow account of all end times prophecy written throughout the Bible that Revelation started to make total sense. I had a good understanding for the most part, but now I more or less have a full understanding of it.

a reply to: Dcopymope
Have I been helpful? I'm very glad to hear it. That's always the object of the exercise.

I'll just make a couple of amendments to your summary of what I was saying.

5. As I suggested earlier, I see the Christian community itself as the temple of God. When the "nations" are occupying the courtyard but not the sanctuary, my suggested interpretation was that the enemies of God were controlling the external structures of the church, but were unable to touch the real "heart" of the Temple, the remnant of faithful believers.

7. The idea of people being "caught up" before the vials doesn't come from my own explanations. I've never been able to find anything like that in the New Testament. The being "caught up" in Thessalonians is one of the aspects of the return of Christ and the final judgement.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Dcopymope
Have I been helpful? I'm very glad to hear it. That's always the object of the exercise.

I'll just make a couple of amendments to your summary of what I was saying.

5. As I suggested earlier, I see the Christian community itself as the temple of God. When the "nations" are occupying the courtyard but not the sanctuary, my suggested interpretation was that the enemies of God were controlling the external structures of the church, but were unable to touch the real "heart" of the Temple, the remnant of faithful believers.

Well, if by touched you mean apostasy from the faith, then sure, but the scripture doesn't really support them not being "touched" so to speak at the point of a gun, or a sword. Many saints will be foolish enough to try and make war against Apollyon, many nations will as well, and John plainly states they will lose. The identity of "the beast" is no mystery to me at all, because John quite plainly refers to Apollyon as "the beast from the bottomless pit". He won't even be human born, he will be a really bad ass angel that gets released from prison to wreck absolute havoc. You don't get names like "The Destroyer" unless you earned it. He won't be one to be trifled with. There will really only be four options for every soul living at this time: 1. Take the mark and worship his image, 2. Refuse ether and die, 3. Run and hide like the Jews will do in Israel, 4. or Take up arms and die anyway.

originally posted by: DISRAELI7. The idea of people being "caught up" before the vials doesn't come from my own explanations. I've never been able to find anything like that in the New Testament. The being "caught up" in Thessalonians is one of the aspects of the return of Christ and the final judgement.

Most people can't really pin point exactly where it occurs in Revelation because you don't see the same language used to describe it. However, we can identity it by simply following the order of events leading up to Revelation 14 & 15 where the saints at this point are basically described as standing on the earth, singing & celebrating their victory over the beast, his image and his mark. The scripture is really quite clear enough to see when the rapture occurs. It occurs after the Great Tribulation period gets cut short as Jesus said it would and before the seven vials judgement, with his actual arrival occurring shortly afterward.

great Thread Disreali bible prophecy is a great study of mine as well

originally posted by: Dcopymope
Well, if by touched you mean apostasy from the faith, then sure, but the scripture doesn't really support them not being "touched" so to speak at the point of a gun, or a sword.

Yes, the first option is the one that I meant. The heart of the "Temple" is kept safe, in the sense that the Beast can kill it but can't control it.

However, we can identity it by simply following the order of events leading up to Revelation 14 & 15 where the saints at this point are basically described as standing on the earth, singing & celebrating their victory over the beast, his image and his mark.

My understanding of this crowd and the other crowds in Revelation was outlined here;
The church triumphant
They get to heaven by martyrdom, not by rapture.
They are described in ch7 as having come "out of" [EK] the great tribulation, which means they went through some of it first.
Nowhere in the New Testament is there any kind of promise that the saints will escape tribulation by being taken away to a safe place. There is no reason to expect that.
We are kept safe for God by being taken through tribulation.