Truth about China

Originally posted by Hawkssss
Hi, this is my first serious post here......
Here are some of the info and evidence:

1) China doesn�t have money
2) China can�t build large ship
3) China�s airforce is entirely outdated
4) China�s navy is entirely outdated
5) China does not spend enough on its military
6) No in air re-fueling technology
7) China doesn�t have MAD capability

hi, i am non-china citizen chinese too, but I don't quite agree with some of your remarks.
although china is the 3rd largest ship maker, but the quality is still way below those made in japan, US. and its economy, including the GDP not entirely, but very much in the hand of foregin investor, if one day let's if US don't sell or support their BOEING plane in china, what do you think will happen? china has bought too much thing from US, and relies too much on US big company, it is now time to give more shares to other country which don't have the intention to rid china of the map.
Japan in world war 2 also do business with china, but it doesn't stop them from invading china.

I agree with the forummers there that China does not spend enough on its military and to certain extent China�s airforce is entirely outdated.

China although have MAD, but is not safe, they need more submarine to launch nuclear missle. Those ballastic missle that hide in the cave or farm whatever is not so helpful, because they can be quickly wiped out in the first nuclear strike by US.

China is a unique situation because realistically, its the only major nuclear power that can be wiped out by the U.S. without America suffering any major retaliatory strike. The strike by the U.S. has to be absolutely perfect, but I personally think it is possible.

Its also interesting to note the socioeconomic circumstances surrounding such a strike. In the post-Cold War world of globalization, China is so unlike its old self and absolutely nothing like the USSR, which pretty much existed for survival from eternal war. Thus, China's cities are not very hardended against any sort of hostile attack, so its almost spectacularly frightening to imagine the kind of damage that could be done by a nuclear strike on the sprawling, brightly-lit post-modern metropolises of Beijing, Shanghai, etc.

Time favors China even if the US and China don't clash military there is and will be an economic war between the two nations. China is in the lead and at this stage looks set to win the economic war currently the US is spending hundreds of billions dollars on a Middle Eastern war and thats not including the cost of the War on Terror. China isn't burden by costly wars and corporate welfare.

[edit on 6-1-2007 by xpert11]

BTW, the Indian/US air exercise did not show all of US capabilities even with older F-16's and F-15C's..not sayin that the IAF didnt show great skill using Su-30MKI ect but believe me, US wont sacrifice showing all of their tactics in a friendly 'Top Gun' exercise... i know i Have read the classified reports. China is improving in their air defense capes..still though not quite enough numbers of 5th generation aircraft to pose more ability in an extensive air or strike campaign.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
1) China doesn?t have money
Wrong. China has the world?s second largest foreign reserves and is the second largest holder of US bonds, both after Japan. In other words, China is US?s creditor and US owes China HUGE amount of money. By April of 2004, China?s foreign reserve is around $440 billion (this doesn?t include HK?s $120 billion)

Again, US?s national debt is $7 Trillion while China?s national debt is around $80 billion. So go figure. The way Bush and the Americans are spending, US will go broke sooner or later. J

2) China can?t build large ship
China?s is the world?s third largest ship builder, after Japan and S. Korea so don?t tell me we have never built large ships

3) China?s airforce is entirely outdated
China now has over 100 Su-30s plus 100+ Su-27s in its inventory and these planes can kick any US planes except for the raptors and the latest F-18s, as demonstrated by the India-US air exercise. Also, China will be building the J-10s in large numbers which can be a pain too

4) China?s navy is entirely outdated
Why don?t you take a look at these babies
We are building 4 Aegis-equivalent DDGs and 2 stealth FFG at the same time. All these ships are nearing finishing. Admittedly they are no match for the 100 DDGs and Cruisers that the US has, but you have to admit China is doing a great job with these ships. Also, the steath FAC that recently surfaced even demonstrates that in certain areas china is surpassing the US.
www.sinodefence.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
Also the stealth FAC that has recently surfaced

7) China doesn?t have MAD capability
You are truly mad if you think China doesn?t have MAD capabilities. China had its first nuke in 1964 and firs H-bomb in 1968 and just recently sent a man into space. So go figure. Granted the US and Russia have thousands of nukes, what china has is more than enough to make us all into glass trunks.

Heheheheh....

I don't mean to brag, and maybe foreign reserves are somehow elevated above REAL money, but my country has over 1000 billion USD in cash, and the worlds most advanced missile industry, not counting what we import like ATACMS and MLRS, Also, since nuclear technology is catching on, we have nukes (try to guess where and what they are if you invade us) and a reserve of Thorium worth 20-30 times what our oil reserves are worth (which are the worlds third largest or something.)
We have like 5 million people in our country.
Try to guess which one it is! And could we kick chinas ass? Totally, with the USA and EU backing us up as hired thugs.
We are also a tempting target for the russians, hence the nukes....
Wooo what a surprise it will be... invading our country and then having all of your military on the hemisphere served up as fried chicken...
We're kinda like Israel, with a lower stock market value.

We also upgraded our navy now, with stealth corvettes/MTB's fastest in the world, and electrical stealth subs and faster better fregates, all with our homemade sea-to-sea sea-to-ground and sea-to-air missiles. but it's still not like I want it (which is 50 years forward in time compared to the rest of the leading edge. Just being better than everyone else is not good enough for me ;-) )

We have all the things that make up good living :-) the purest silisuim, aluminium and steel, plus enough energy (oil, gas, nuclear fuel) to keep on going for ever and ever and ever ;-)

Compare America's military capabilities vis a vis the rest of the world in 1935 to that 10 years later.
The pace of change today is a lot faster, and the weapons crucial to dominance may have not even been invented yet.

Originally posted by 732t497654
We have like 5 million people in our country.
Try to guess which one it is! And could we kick chinas ass? Totally, with the USA and EU backing us up as hired thugs.
We are also a tempting target for the russians, hence the nukes....
Wooo what a surprise it will be... invading our country and then having all of your military on the hemisphere served up as fried chicken...
We're kinda like Israel, with a lower stock market value.

Norway??!!
..
No really.. you've got me here!
What you talking about?

The USA dominates space and therefore dominates the world. This is how modern warefare is won - through infomation. Discussing who has what isn't the point, it is who knows what.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
Hi, this is my first serious post here. I am a Chinese and have read quite a few posts wrt to China. I think most forumers are very moderate and objective and don't bash too much. But, there are a few misinformation that I think should be corrected. This is just for your information, please no bashing.

Many things that are said about are quite misinformed so it is probably conductive to correct some of the wrong assertions on this forum. I have to admit that members on this forum are mostly very moderate and objective in your views.

Here are some of the info and evidence:

1) China doesn�t have money
Wrong. China has the world�s second largest foreign reserves and is the second largest holder of US bonds, both after Japan. In other words, China is US�s creditor and US owes China HUGE amount of money. By April of 2004, China�s foreign reserve is around $440 billion (this doesn�t include HK�s $120 billion)

Again, US�s national debt is $7 Trillion while China�s national debt is around $80 billion. So go figure. The way Bush and the Americans are spending, US will go broke sooner or later. J

2) China can�t build large ship
China�s is the world�s third largest ship builder, after Japan and S. Korea so don�t tell me we have never built large ships

3) China�s airforce is entirely outdated
China now has over 100 Su-30s plus 100+ Su-27s in its inventory and these planes can kick any US planes except for the raptors and the latest F-18s, as demonstrated by the India-US air exercise. Also, China will be building the J-10s in large numbers which can be a pain too

4) China�s navy is entirely outdated
Why don�t you take a look at these babies
We are building 4 Aegis-equivalent DDGs and 2 stealth FFG at the same time. All these ships are nearing finishing. Admittedly they are no match for the 100 DDGs and Cruisers that the US has, but you have to admit China is doing a great job with these ships. Also, the steath FAC that recently surfaced even demonstrates that in certain areas china is surpassing the US.
www.sinodefence.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
Also the stealth FAC that has recently surfaced

5) China does not spend enough on its military
www.cdi.org...
Granted it is not much compared with the US (who does, the US spends more than the rest of the world�s military budge combined), it still spends a lot of money. One very important factor to consider is that china�s purchasing power: 1 $ in China can buy a lot more than $1 in US or Japan.

6) No in air re-fueling technology
www.sinodefence.com...

7) China doesn�t have MAD capability
You are truly mad if you think China doesn�t have MAD capabilities. China had its first nuke in 1964 and firs H-bomb in 1968 and just recently sent a man into space. So go figure. Granted the US and Russia have thousands of nukes, what china has is more than enough to make us all into glass trunks.

As a Chinese American I love it when Chinese nationalists brainwashed by the government to remember the humiliation we endured instead of asking for freedom and liberties (due to the Tinanmen Sqaure incident) boast about the capabilities of the Chinese military. Its great to be proud, everyone is. But it still doesnt change the fact that ever since the formation of the People's Republic america has had an offensive capability to strike China while China likewise never did. Many point to small or minor advances of the Chinese military and boast, but it still doesnt equalize the god like advantage the American military possess over China. The American military will possess a huge superiority over the Chinese military probably for another 20-25 years. China is only begin to develop its long range offensive capability as previously its mainly focused on defense in the event of war over Taiwan.

Originally posted by Analyst
4) The Chinese diaspora

Don't underestimate this factor. Look at all the Chinese living in Canada, US, Europe... If there ever was a war, what would happen? would they get locked upo in concentration camps the way the Japanese were locked up during WWII? There are more Chinese around today than Japanese then... In comparison how many Americans do you know live in China and speak Chinese? I live in China, I'm French and I do speak Chinese, but there are not that many westerners that do that (although their numbers are increasing).

Your thought on these issues are welcome!

Lol, I'm Chinese American and I speak french un petite peux bien sur! I have only met two none chinese ever than could speak mandrain.

Lol man do I feel stupid about my earlier post, I never finished reading Hawkss entire post and misinterpet it, sorry.

[edit on 19-1-2007 by pilotshinjiikaru]

Originally posted by xpert11
Time favors China even if the US and China don't clash military there is and will be an economic war between the two nations. China is in the lead and at this stage looks set to win the economic war currently the US is spending hundreds of billions dollars on a Middle Eastern war and thats not including the cost of the War on Terror. China isn't burden by costly wars and corporate welfare.

[edit on 6-1-2007 by xpert11]

Heres the problem most people assume that China's growth will be sustained at the same rate forever. Thats not true China is actually in crisses right now, its growth and expansion came at HUGE costs. Human and environmental costs, it the future a large part of its GDP will be spent to settle those issues because soon it will have no choice but to do so right now their just brushing it underneath the doormat. With something like 800 million peasents without access to healthcare or any realistic oppertunities for education above middle school. The Chinese countryside is incrediable unstable right now. Thats why recently Hu Jintao embark on his harmonious society or whatever it was called plan to put a temporary band aid on the problems of the Chinese countryside. And to show you how bad pollution is in China. In a PBS Public Television Documentry called "China: Inside Out" they stated that something like 500,000 Chinese every year die prematurely from pollution through lung and heart diseases and explosion in cancer rates.

pilotshinjiikaru > Hi! Mandarin speaking (can't read well though) aussie here~ Though I'm living on the other side of the strait.

I don't know if your 500,000 counts Taiwan as part of China, but it's the same here. My mother-in-law got diagnosed a while ago with cancer caused by (supposedly) the fumes from when she cooked. I'm sure local pollution didn't help. There are quite a few Mandarin speaking foreigners, both here AND in China. But, if you're overseas - it's much rarer. Similar to the students here who spend years learning English and still can't speak for crud.

Personally (trying to stay on topic), I see China's military build up as a big threat for Taiwan. As someone mentioned before - IF China DID make a move to take Taiwan, the US is too tied up with the Middle East to offer much assistance. I don't really think Taiwan would stand much of a chance. Most of the military is made up by compulsary conscription at the age of 21. These conscripts are only trained in the basics and spend much of their time doing monotonous tasks. The majority of people I know feel that it's a waste of time, and quite a few find ways around it (leaving the country for certain periods of time helps).

I can see both positives and negatives from Taiwan returning to China. While China is communist (which I don't particularly agree with), it would most likely solve all these stupid stunts we see the government pulling via our media. I mean... C'mon! Throwing cups of water at each other in parliament? Many of my friends (locals) admit that they don't really care if China takes over except for the media control etc. It's not really going to make much of a change to their daily lives apart from media.

And as for these new fighter jets. Well, while technological superiority is great. Sheer numbers is quite a powerful force as well. People are quite happy to squish a bee. But would you dare go and shake up the hive.

Originally posted by x08
pilotshinjiikaru > Hi! Mandarin speaking (can't read well though) aussie here~ Though I'm living on the other side of the strait.

I don't know if your 500,000 counts Taiwan as part of China, but it's the same here. My mother-in-law got diagnosed a while ago with cancer caused by (supposedly) the fumes from when she cooked. I'm sure local pollution didn't help. There are quite a few Mandarin speaking foreigners, both here AND in China. But, if you're overseas - it's much rarer. Similar to the students here who spend years learning English and still can't speak for crud.

Personally (trying to stay on topic), I see China's military build up as a big threat for Taiwan. As someone mentioned before - IF China DID make a move to take Taiwan, the US is too tied up with the Middle East to offer much assistance. I don't really think Taiwan would stand much of a chance. Most of the military is made up by compulsary conscription at the age of 21. These conscripts are only trained in the basics and spend much of their time doing monotonous tasks. The majority of people I know feel that it's a waste of time, and quite a few find ways around it (leaving the country for certain periods of time helps).

I can see both positives and negatives from Taiwan returning to China. While China is communist (which I don't particularly agree with), it would most likely solve all these stupid stunts we see the government pulling via our media. I mean... C'mon! Throwing cups of water at each other in parliament? Many of my friends (locals) admit that they don't really care if China takes over except for the media control etc. It's not really going to make much of a change to their daily lives apart from media.

And as for these new fighter jets. Well, while technological superiority is great. Sheer numbers is quite a powerful force as well. People are quite happy to squish a bee. But would you dare go and shake up the hive.

I disagree with you. Yes the US is too tied up for a real war, but China and the US will NEVER fight a real war. The US never envisioned manpower as key to defending Taiwan but the threat of US air and naval power. Bases in Okinawa and Guam were originally envision to protect South Korea and Taiwan. Chinese planners know that theres B-52s at Guam as a strategic buffer to China in a sense and B-2s would probably operate from Guam as well if they needed to. And Chinas new jet is not some technological marvel its been well known since 1995. Its purported to be the equivalent of latest F-16 block series. And Taiwan has their own modified native copies of F-16s.

Yes China is evening the technological edge that Taiwan has over China. But China isnt there yet, they J-10 or whatever it is called is just entering service. I'm sure Chinawhite can make claims about Chinas stealth ships in its Navy but Chinas military is still catching up in the technological front. Because increased relationship with the US and pressuring the US to refuse selling weapons to Taiwan giving it an edge. Like the AEGIS...which Taiwan wants and which would make it a priority for China's forces to target as it could make any invasion a nightmare. The reason Japan acquired them.

But also Taiwan's economy is intergral to the economies of Japan and South Korea which are all reliant on eachother. And then China, Japan, and the US. So China will never go to war with Taiwan unless it knows it can scare the government of Taiwan into reunifying but Taiwan wont and there is no way China can take Taiwan within say less than a day before the global community can respond. And China wont risk military engagement with the US as it has forces positioned all around its coast.

Even if the US says it will not protect Taiwan I dont think China will invade Taiwan either but just saber rattle more and try to scare them into submission because Japan would not sit by and Taiwan be invaded because then it harms its strategic interests and Japan and China are too reliant on each others economies to fight a war without destablizing eachothers county.

So in reality Taiwan will most likely never reunite with Taiwan. Taiwan sees its own identity as different then that of China. The KMT supports reunification but only under the idea of a democratic China which wont happen anytime soon. And only the elderly population of Taiwan born in China see themselves as Chinese and only a portion of the population of Taiwan is Han and see themselves as Chinese. So Chinawhite and others can dispute reality all they want but its highly unlikely China will reunify with Taiwan unless something unforseen and drastic happens. Like CCP collapsing maybe or Taiwans economy collapsing and CCP being friendly and not saber rattling.

But as long as China is communist and saber rattles and threatens with force then it wont happen without a miracle.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by pilotshinjiikaru]

China should not be underestimated, nor overestimated.

On a land war they beat anyone hands down, heck we ran out bullets to kill them in Korea.

Their Navy is a joke, Air Force is above average, missle technology is very good, but their officers lack real war training.

China is very vulnerable economically, their ships carry goods worldwide because the US Navy protects the shipping lanes.

No US Navy protection, fuel shortage ,money shortage, food shortage, death and famine.

I fear China, but the odds are not in their favor. They have come a long way, but a simple economic hiccup or military crisis would cripple the so called next world power.

Just some food for thought!

Originally posted by x08
it would most likely solve all these stupid stunts we see the government pulling via our media. I mean... C'mon! Throwing cups of water at each other in parliament?

Lol my favorite is when I saw a video from like 10 years ago one politician pulled out a long metal microphone with a bendable neck that was on his desk and began to beat another politician with out as like 30 guys tried to seperate them. LOL!!!!

A few good points there. I suppose I am not totally up to speed on everything, but hey.. that's why I found this forum... lots of stuff to learn and here's a great place for it.

Speaking to a few people around me, many won't deny a possibility of China invading, but nor will they say that it will - they won't be surprised if they do. But, they are all fairly adamant (sp?) that if such an event were to happen, it won't happen at least until after the olympics.

Nor would the invasion incur a heap of destruction. And of course, China wouldn't lauch nukes at Taiwan. That would defeat the whole purpose of the takeover, as they don't want to get a pile of rubble.

Originally posted by x08
A few good points there. I suppose I am not totally up to speed on everything, but hey.. that's why I found this forum... lots of stuff to learn and here's a great place for it.

Speaking to a few people around me, many won't deny a possibility of China invading, but nor will they say that it will - they won't be surprised if they do. But, they are all fairly adamant (sp?) that if such an event were to happen, it won't happen at least until after the olympics.

Nor would the invasion incur a heap of destruction. And of course, China wouldn't lauch nukes at Taiwan. That would defeat the whole purpose of the takeover, as they don't want to get a pile of rubble.

They wont invade you, if they did alot of people would die. Taiwan and Fujian provence are too overly crowded. Its not like Taiwan is just going to let them land on its shores. And like I said Taiwan has a formidable military for its size. So China will never swoop in and take Taiwan before anyone can do anything about it. If they did it would be stalled out long enough for a military response from the US with Japan possible providing military support and logistics. So unless China can scare Taiwan into submission they wont get Taiwan back. The PLA generals arent retarded, the more intergrated China is to the global community the less likely it will do something stupid. And plus I would think if lets say the US puts an embargo on China it would hurt China more than it hurts the US. Sure it will drive up prices on goods and send the economy hurling but China's economy is too export driven heavily focused on the US.

But my point is China wont invade Taiwan unless Taiwan wants China to. Everything is political and strategic posturing. Chances of China invading Taiwan is about the same as the US invading North Korea.

Originally posted by mel1962
China should not be underestimated, nor overestimated.

On a land war they beat anyone hands down, heck we ran out bullets to kill them in Korea.

Their Navy is a joke, Air Force is above average, missle technology is very good, but their officers lack real war training.

China is very vulnerable economically, their ships carry goods worldwide because the US Navy protects the shipping lanes.

No US Navy protection, fuel shortage ,money shortage, food shortage, death and famine.

I fear China, but the odds are not in their favor. They have come a long way, but a simple economic hiccup or military crisis would cripple the so called next world power.

Just some food for thought!

Actually China cant win a land war, let me explain to you why. Which land war are you talking about? China's military is always based on defense, so if you think Korean era lets send 2 million men at them until you run out of bullets you are deadly wrong. Cluster munitions can kill up to thousands of soldiers per munition if they are spaced close enough. So saying that you can use manpower to overwhelm the technological advantage the US has is suicidal. Since the US is completely prepared for conventional warfare. China could only win a land war if its defending its own territory. As it has no logistics capability to deploy abroad. But the PLA generals know even if they invade Taiwan the US military isnt stupid enough to land on China's shores as they wont commit themselves to a full scale war and invasion of China. They would only repel the Chinese invasion forces possibly bomb Fujian provence and areas where they lanch the attack from if they want to escalate it further and then call for a cease fire. But most likely just to repel a Chinese invasion and then call for a cease fire. So PLA has only one real enemy Taiwan and beyond that its for flexing its military muscles. The PLA cant hit anything else besides Taiwan because its not meant to do anything more.

yer china is pritty far out their

but its sort of dependent on minerals

like australian uranium..............
like australian natural gas
like australian high tensile steel
sugar
rice
agriculture
wheat

about the fighter pilots id say in the next 10 -15 years they might still be around the b52 will be any way but ahh fighter pilots will be stories you tell ur grand children in 40 years


id still rather live in a country were i can swim with the sharks

and not swim with fetus's