Truth about China

Hi, this is my first serious post here. I am a Chinese and have read quite a few posts wrt to China. I think most forumers are very moderate and objective and don't bash too much. But, there are a few misinformation that I think should be corrected. This is just for your information, please no bashing.

Many things that are said about are quite misinformed so it is probably conductive to correct some of the wrong assertions on this forum. I have to admit that members on this forum are mostly very moderate and objective in your views.

Here are some of the info and evidence:

1) China doesn�t have money
Wrong. China has the world�s second largest foreign reserves and is the second largest holder of US bonds, both after Japan. In other words, China is US�s creditor and US owes China HUGE amount of money. By April of 2004, China�s foreign reserve is around $440 billion (this doesn�t include HK�s $120 billion)

Again, US�s national debt is $7 Trillion while China�s national debt is around $80 billion. So go figure. The way Bush and the Americans are spending, US will go broke sooner or later. J

2) China can�t build large ship
China�s is the world�s third largest ship builder, after Japan and S. Korea so don�t tell me we have never built large ships

3) China�s airforce is entirely outdated
China now has over 100 Su-30s plus 100+ Su-27s in its inventory and these planes can kick any US planes except for the raptors and the latest F-18s, as demonstrated by the India-US air exercise. Also, China will be building the J-10s in large numbers which can be a pain too

4) China�s navy is entirely outdated
Why don�t you take a look at these babies
We are building 4 Aegis-equivalent DDGs and 2 stealth FFG at the same time. All these ships are nearing finishing. Admittedly they are no match for the 100 DDGs and Cruisers that the US has, but you have to admit China is doing a great job with these ships. Also, the steath FAC that recently surfaced even demonstrates that in certain areas china is surpassing the US.
www.sinodefence.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
Also the stealth FAC that has recently surfaced

5) China does not spend enough on its military
www.cdi.org...
Granted it is not much compared with the US (who does, the US spends more than the rest of the world�s military budge combined), it still spends a lot of money. One very important factor to consider is that china�s purchasing power: 1 $ in China can buy a lot more than $1 in US or Japan.

6) No in air re-fueling technology
www.sinodefence.com...

7) China doesn�t have MAD capability
You are truly mad if you think China doesn�t have MAD capabilities. China had its first nuke in 1964 and firs H-bomb in 1968 and just recently sent a man into space. So go figure. Granted the US and Russia have thousands of nukes, what china has is more than enough to make us all into glass trunks.

Originally posted by Hawkssss

7) China doesn�t have MAD capability
You are truly mad if you think China doesn�t have MAD capabilities. China had its first nuke in 1964 and firs H-bomb in 1968 and just recently sent a man into space. So go figure. Granted the US and Russia have thousands of nukes, what china has is more than enough to make us all into glass trunks.

What do you take us for? Anyone worth their salt on this board understands China has Nuclear capability, but not MAD because that would involve two parties to have mutually assured destrcution.

And yes we know you sent a man into space. This board is an international one and not under some veil of ignorance. Most of your facts are either well known or have been attempted to be proven by this huge influx of Chinese members in the past week.

Speaking of which. What are you all trying to accomplish by coming in here and flexing your muscles? No offense but much of the time you come off as ignorant relying upon the Iraq war as some horrible genocide perpetrated by mad men and then trying to point out our national debt most of the time with inexact figures whilst not understanding our debt is an inherent portion of our system

Really you guys could direct your efforts to something more positive here than coming in and trying to play who can piss the farthest. Its annoying and immature.

Threads like these have become repetative in nature, and often hostile. Cant we aim for something a little more lofty than: "My countries so cool its pwns you!".

[edit on 24-6-2004 by Agent47]

@Agent47,

Wow, you are kinda of sensitive, aren't you! I just read some stuff on this forum that prompted me to compile this list so that people won't make ignorant remarks such as "china can't scrap enogh money to do that" or "China can't even nuke the US" etc. If you are well aware of these facts, kudos to you. But, let's just be a little less tense, ok?

BTW, I never mentioned the Iraq situation and how to look at the US debt problem is up for grabs; even famed economists have different opionions so why can't I take a view.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
@Agent47,

Wow, you are kinda of sensitive, aren't you!

BTW, I never mentioned the Iraq situation and how to look at the US debt problem is up for grabs; even famed economists have different opionions so why can't I take a view.

No Im not too particularly sensitive I was just venting some frustration with an influx of strange nationalism and attacks on others nationalism.

I never said you mentioned Iraq , I was talking in a general sense when I mentioned that because many of your countrymen have taken to spouting off misinformed and misinterpreted views concerning the conflict.

I didnt mean to make it look like an attack, more just a request for everyone to get off their high horses and to point out that MAD takes two to tango.

I didnt mean to start off on the wrong foot. to you too buddy. Welcome to ATS, you'll find Im not so tense in regular conditions.

[edit on 24-6-2004 by Agent47]

/Great, Agent47. I really like this forum and I was on another military-related forum and thought there would be one that's better. But, guess what, I found this one: military, politics, conspiracy theory, the grail. etc. This is my dream forum.

BTW, how do you do the beer glass thing with the smiley faces?

Cheers mate!

Is it true baby girls are thrown on to the streets in China because the parents wished it was a boy instead?

Is it also true that you have to ask your government permission to have a child??

Wow you sent a man into space we did that 40 years ago.
Wow you have the J-10 we made the F-16 25 years ago.
Wow you have a small debt but if the US doesn't by all your toys that china makes u also go broke
Wow you have Su-30 and Su-27 these are russian because Chinese cant build anything why doesn't china try to build a car first then wrry about jets all you are good at is making toys for Mc Donalds
and china cant even feed it ppl cant control the population more than half of it ppl are farmers who are very poor.
And Chinese tech is at leas a decade or tow behind US tech.

Hawkssss, while I learn more about China-Taiwan relations I become a bit more moderate towards China, I still understand one thing you seem to not understand.

America doesn't care if you build the best military on the earth because America's policy towards china has never been conventional.

If we were to ever go to war against you, you would lose 600 billion people instantly and your 30 some odd Strategic weapons would be swiftly taken care of.

That is why militarily we really do not give a crap.

Politically (because we'd really hate to turn you into a stoneage exhibit) we care much more, and because of that you seem to have some belief you are "winning" some kind of fight.

It's not a fight, we want you to be better, because better means more stable and more stability means less chance of regional dung flinging and possible rogue nuclear attacks by internal up-heavals.

This is just an easy sum-up...more complicated it would be better you know that China's goals are not militaristic either, China wants to be recognized as a Great Power, not be obliterated in a Nuclear Holocaust.

In 1975 that pretty much happend when the "1 China policy" took effect, which to the others on this board who think war with China and Taiwan is imminent, should greatly look into to realize why war with China and Taiwan and consequently the Nuclear response by America that would follow, is not imminent.

Also China's Navy is still petty compared to ours.

Oh and WestPoint's point brings up a memory, China imports most of its food from...America.

Just thought you'd want to know that

That doesn't mean America is far beyond China's reach, in fact it just means we are interdependent and both of us winning is better than both of us losing, there is no China wins or America wins. Either we win together or lose together.

WW1 and WW2 taught Europe that.

WW1 destroyed 5 empires.

WW2 destroyed many nations and 1 empire that America than had to rebuild.

The game is far different now than the way you are assuming Hawkssss.

What a great example of de-evolution West Point. Save the BPWDF(u2u me if you dont' know the abr.) for the mud pit please. Welcome aboard Hawkssss, understand that it is the internet that allows everyone to understand each other on an individual level without the media or politicians getting in our way. I say soak up like a sponge and you will see that there is much more diversity than what peeps who aren't wired realize. Have phun! ;-)

im telling it like it is and i know what it means

Hawkssss,

I don't actually give a damn about weather or not China could killl the US.

I just know that China needs some democracy and is overpopulated.

it is a fact that now the American military is stronger then every single country on earth combined. we spend more on it because obviously we have more enemies.

Hi guys,

seriously, I didn't mean to bash the US or sound provocative or arrogant at all. All I wanted to do is state some facts because many people are simply stating many facts without looking up any background info. For example, China imports most of her food from China. Sorry to disappoint you, that's not the case. I believe someone has already done some research on this and showed that in fact China only import a small proportion of her food and is in fact the largest producer of many farm products.

This is just an example. I guess I shouldn't have chosen the US as a yardstick. I guess it was sort of a compliment. To catch up with the US is indeed our national aspiration and there is no other suitable yardstick or target for China. Of course, I understand, even if one day we do catch up with the US, your cummulative wealth will still be many, many times that of China.

I know that the PLAN is indeed petty compared with the US Navy. No shiiit, the US Navy is bigger than the rest of the world's navies combined, as is your military budget (No shiiit, this fact has not been emphasized enough on this forum )

I like this forum because most people are pretty moderate here.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
I like this forum because most people are pretty moderate here.

Cheers.

I'm glad you still have that outlook and I really feel bad for starting your thread the way I did, because I think it set a tone of insults and defensiveness. Im very proud of my nation as you are proud of yours and I was just taking out my frustrations at some of your countrymen here on you.

I hope you can keep your positive outlook and disregard your not so warm welcome.

Cheers or if you want the just type : cheers : but dont space between cheers like I did.

you forget Hawksss that while the PLAAF and PLA have numbers and some nice stuff, how well are they trained? thats half of it right there.

Agent47,

Thanks for the tip. cheers

Ivan,

That's a myth indeed because of lack of disclosure and interaction with other armed forces. Often I wonder how we compare with western and russian counterparts. But, one thing I can tell you is that PLA army is very well trained. PLAF and PLAN are probably more doubtful. But, I am not sure. I don't think we are the best, but we definitely are not the worst either. It will probably take a war to find out. (of course, we don't want this to happen, maybe over the Spratley islands with Vietnam soon. just my guess)

Cheers

Hey folks,

While I do not share your fascination for military conflict, which I believe should be avoided at all costs particularly between China and the US, I do have other factors that I believe you are completely overlooking in your analysis.

Students of history know that there is more to winning a conflict than hard power, just look at Iraq for crissakes. Your thoughts on the following:

1) the nation's ability to tolerate bodybags, draft soldiers and mobilize an entire population on total war.

My bet is China is far better equipped to deal with this than the US, at least from what I can judge having lived in both countries. The Chinese population is more accustomed to death, famine and hardship, that's just plain and simple. The don't need to consum as much energy and can live on less, hence better able to deal with such wartime occurences as power failures and rationing. The Americans own a lot of guns, but in the age of modern warfare, I don't believe that will make much of a difference unless someone was crazy enough to invade the US.

2) soft power / alliances / friendships / economic clout

America used to be far ahead here but I believe that the tide is changing. Foreign policy disasters have reduced the number of friendly nations who would be willing to fight for the US. On the other hand China has been very active on the international political and diplomatic scene, applying the concept of 'guanxi' to the world of international relations. China is building a comprehensive information structure (check out CCTV - just like CNN with 24 hour news coverage... in English!) China is gaining friends around the world, the US is losing them. As for the economy, America still dominates, at least for another ten years or so when China's projected GDP will surpass America's.

3) Tech wars: space war and computer hacking

Another field of traditional US domination but China is making giant strides. Let's all hope they don't militarize space. China and Russia are against it, but good ol' Dubbya is there to make sure it happens.

4) The Chinese diaspora

Don't underestimate this factor. Look at all the Chinese living in Canada, US, Europe... If there ever was a war, what would happen? would they get locked upo in concentration camps the way the Japanese were locked up during WWII? There are more Chinese around today than Japanese then... In comparison how many Americans do you know live in China and speak Chinese? I live in China, I'm French and I do speak Chinese, but there are not that many westerners that do that (although their numbers are increasing).

Your thought on these issues are welcome!

Originally posted by Hawkssss


PLAF and PLAN are probably more doubtful. But, I am not sure. I don't think we are the best, but we definitely are not the worst either. It will probably take a war to find out. (of course, we don't want this to happen, maybe over the Spratley islands with Vietnam soon. just my guess)

Cheers

you cant win a war just on the ground, and i dont think that the vietnamies(sp) woud be a god fight. if you realy want to find out we should have a war. may the best military win.

I encourage all Americans to underestimate China!

That way, in case we go to war with China, we can send those who are that confident and high on morale into combat first!

FreeMason and WestPoint, we're looking at you.

Funny how lack of knowledge and the like about potential adversaries can actually help us in times of need. It gives us more meat for the grinder!

"China will lose 600 billion instantly?" You wish, FreeMason.

On a more serious note, the U.S. cannot afford to go to war with China. That would spell the end for the U.S. Even if the U.S. wins in the end, just think of the losses that would've been suffered. Especially since you cannot defeat China using air and sea power only.

Yes, America is 10 years ahead of China in terms of overall technology. The U.S. Air Force is a millenia ahead. But as Analyst said, China has more of a "fighting attitude."

Take a baseball team. A team may have the game's best offense and pitching, but if the players really don't care and just do whatever they want, what good is all that talent? The team that wants to play wins.

If China and the U.S. ever go to war, I say China would win in about ten years. China's fighting attitude is that much superior and America would have to resort to other methods of fighting, since superior technology can't break the Chinese hearts.

But again, a war with China is something the U.S. must avoid at all costs. The U.S. is not an imperial-like nation and is in no condition to take on strong foes.