So you want Free Energy?

Originally posted by cupocoffee
What are you saying? Bedini is a "disinfo artist"?

Originally posted by Matyas
That is exactly what I am saying. And most if not the rest.

Well, I don't agree with you. That would be awfully stupid, for Bedini and Friedrich to sell a $4000 unit that doesn't work and totally ruin their reputations.

I am more inclined to believe that the serious ones who are actually selling real stuff, such as Bedini or Vorktex, that their technology does work. The disinfo artists are the ones who attack them all the time and try to convince people that it doesn't work

No, the disinfo artists claim it is possible without a complete theory, which is hit and miss. They will keep others searching without ever knowing the truth. The red herrings.

Bearden has given a complete theory. He has published all kinds of articles and books and told us who the pioneering physicists are and what physics books to go read, everything.

If you would have done simple things like watched EFTV I and II you would know that....

reply to post by cupocoffee

Well, I don't agree with you. That would be awfully stupid, for Bedini and Friedrich to sell a $4000 unit that doesn't work and totally ruin their reputations.

The problem with that argument is that Bedini has no reputation to ruin, he lost whatever reputation he had long ago.

I am more inclined to believe that the serious ones who are actually selling real stuff, such as Bedini or Vorktex, that their technology does work. The disinfo artists are the ones who attack them all the time and try to convince people that it doesn't work

Bedini sells CD 'Clarifiers' that don't do anything at all, battery chargers that don't do anything any better than any other battery charger, and experimenter's kits. Experimenters kits don't have to do anything real, they are just toys. Expensive toys, entertaining toys, even educational toys, but toys none-the-less. Furthermore, if the experimenter kits don't work as he said they should, then Bedini just says the 'experimenter' didn't follow his precise instructions and that is the end of conversation.

No, the disinfo artists claim it is possible without a complete theory, which is hit and miss. They will keep others searching without ever knowing the truth. The red herrings.

Bearden has given a complete theory. He has published all kinds of articles and books and told us who the pioneering physicists are and what physics books to go read, everything.

A 'theory' is a description of how a observed phenomenon works, including enough detail to explain all the associated phenomena and to make predictions about that phenomena.

By contrast, what Beardon has described is fantasy. Speculation based on a complete (possibly willful) misunderstanding of the nature of the observed universe that actually argues against his ideas.

If you would have done simple things like watched EFTV I and II you would know that....

If you would have done simple things like study physics in general, and electromagnetism is particular, you would know that...

Heck, if you would have just learned to think for yourself, you would have found the obvious yourself.

Originally posted by rnaa
The problem with that argument is that Bedini has no reputation to ruin, he lost whatever reputation he had long ago.

Says who? He seems to have a great reputation in alt energy circles.

Bedini sells CD 'Clarifiers' that don't do anything at all, battery chargers that don't do anything any better than any other battery charger,

How do you know that? Have you tested it yourself?

A lot of people rave about his 'Renaissance Charger'.

and experimenter's kits. Experimenters kits don't have to do anything real, they are just toys. Expensive toys, entertaining toys, even educational toys, but toys none-the-less. Furthermore, if the experimenter kits don't work as he said they should, then Bedini just says the 'experimenter' didn't follow his precise instructions and that is the end of conversation.

Well, if people DON'T follow the instructions correctly, then it isn't very likely to work, is it? Duh!

But, again, the people who have actually gotten the kits and who actually do the experiments seem pretty pleased with it.

A 'theory' is a description of how a observed phenomenon works, including enough detail to explain all the associated phenomena and to make predictions about that phenomena.

Yes, yes, he's done all that.

By contrast, what Beardon has described is fantasy. Speculation based on a complete (possibly willful) misunderstanding of the nature of the observed universe that actually argues against his ideas.

In YOUR opinion.

If you would have done simple things like study physics in general, and electromagnetism is particular, you would know that...

Heck, if you would have just learned to think for yourself, you would have found the obvious yourself.

"Anyone who studies physics and electromagnetism and thinks for himself knows it doesn't work"

Wow, I love all the assumptions you're making!

The way I see it - you haven't done the experiments, so you don't know anything. You THINK you know for certain, but you don't.

The only people who matter here are the people who have gotten the kits and done the experiments.

I've read all kinds of Bedini threads, and it's always the same. The people who go on and on about how it can't work never DO THE EXPERIMENTS.

Meanwhile most of the people who actually TRY and who DO THE EXPERIMENT are like, "Wow, cool!!"

Go get a kit and try it, or go do the 'School Girl Motor' Bedini-101 experiment, and provide evidence of such, then your opinion will matter....

Originally posted by cupocoffee
Well, I don't agree with you. That would be awfully stupid, for Bedini and Friedrich to sell a $4000 unit that doesn't work and totally ruin their reputations.

That is what their reputations are built on. What seems stupid to you is actually quite intelligent.

I am more inclined to believe that the serious ones who are actually selling real stuff, such as Bedini or Vorktex, that their technology does work.

That is it right there. You believe. Your belief has nothing to do with the reality.

The disinfo artists are the ones who attack them all the time and try to convince people that it doesn't work

No, those are called scientists. Or debunkers. And they are attempting to keep poor fools from getting separated from their money.

Bearden has given a complete theory.

Oh really? Has he unified the four forces? Has he demystified all the subatomic particles of the Standard Model?

He has published all kinds of articles and books and told us who the pioneering physicists are and what physics books to go read, everything.

I could publish too. I decided not to because I did not know enough. The pioneers are in the public domain, as well as the material.

If you would have done simple things like watched EFTV I and II you would know that....

If you had done simple things like read Einstein's original paper you would know that

Originally posted by Matyas
That is it right there. You believe. Your belief has nothing to do with the reality.

It has everything to do with the reality.

I have been studying Bedini and Bearden stuff off and on for years now, and it's always the same.

Most of the people who actually try their experiments report positive results.

The skeptics and debunkers who say it can't work never actually try the experiments, and when challenged to do so they go, "No, I won't. I refuse to waste my time and money on that. I already know it won't work...."

The fact is, Bedini has many supporters, people who have done the experiments and who know it works. That is fact. Go to any board where Bedini stuff is discussed regularly like overunity.com or energeticforums.com or peswiki.com and see for yourself.

The only people whose opinions actually matter here are the ones who have done the experiments and have direct hands-on experience. The rest I couldn't care less about.

Bearden has given a complete theory.

Oh really? Has he unified the four forces? Has he demystified all the subatomic particles of the Standard Model?

???

Why do you have to unify the four forces and demystify subatomic particles to have a theory on free energy?

reply to post by cupocoffee

This guy seems pretty close to having a unit power his house:

Whose house runs on 11 volts? And the guy said right up front that he isn't interested in amps; fatal mistake if he wants to power his house.

By the way, I take it you missed the disclaimer in that film that erases everything the guy is trying to imply?

"...we are just recycling the energy here..."

Yes, that is right. He is recycling energy from the car batteries into the rechargeable dry cells or what ever he is charging. The output from the car batteries is running his 'generator' and being converted to heat. The output from his 'generator' is limited by the efficiency of the generator and is being split between the car batteries, the dry cells and heat.

He is implying that he can generating 'new' energy and use it to power the house but then explicitly acknowledges that he can't in an almost 'soto voce' aside, in an offhand manner designed to hide the comment from the viewer. Then he immediately attempts to distract the listener from any temporary unease they might have if they connected with that statement by saying that he's only got "two of the ten coils juiced up".

Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain, OK?.

Lets get back to the lack of paying attention the the amps coming out of his machine. He is producing something over 11 volts, and thinks he can get it to 12 volts if he puts a few more windings on his coils and that shouldn't be problem, that is just a transformer after all.

But can you run a house off 12 volts? Lets think about it a little bit. (I am not an Electric Engineer, I am just spit balling here, so please, those of you who are EE's please correct me when I go astray)

First off, the relationship between Volts, Amps, and Watts, is given by the formula Amps = Watts / Volts

A typical fluorescent light bulb in Australia has an input voltage of 220 or 240, uses 15W, and can safely 'look at' a current of 120 mA.

Now the current required by the bulb is (15W / 220V = .068A = 68 mA) so its margin of safety is about twice the current required. The equivalent 15W bulb in the USA would require 136 mA to operate (15W/110V=.136A) so if it had the same safety margin, it would be rated at about 270mA. (I may be skimming over the likely hood of the USA bulb having a different transformer that the Australian equivalent).

But the thing is, we only have 12 volts at the moment. 15W / 12V = 1.25A. The amperage required to run that light bulb with 12V is almost 500 times beyond the design limits of the bulb. And how much heat is going to be generated by the machine to produce that amperage? That is where I got the claim in an earlier post that the machine is going to melt down before it produces usable energy.

OK, this is ridiculously oversimplified. I've seen video's of these machines in fact operating light globes exactly as I have described; so they undoubtedly insert a transformer into the circuit to lift the voltage to 110/120V so they don't need the amps, that is a no-brainer. But transformers get hot, and that is where the energy is being lost again. It is part of the reason that photovoltaics are so inefficient after you factor in the transformer loss.

The machine is really just an interesting to watch, but not very effective room heater.

Originally posted by ArcAngel
You should really use the search function as a post like this is highly insulting to the members here.

These devices are scams. There's a real good reason why there are none of these in operation, and it isn't because of oil company conspiracies. From wikepaedia please learn and deny ignorance!

The law of conservation of energy is an empirical law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed: it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a closed system is that it can change form: for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy.
Albert Einstein's theory of relativity shows that energy and mass are the same thing, and that neither one appears without the other. Thus in closed systems, both mass and energy are conserved separately, just as was understood in pre-relativistic physics. The new feature of relativistic physics is that "matter" particles (such as those constituting atoms) could be converted to non-matter forms of energy, such as light; or kinetic and potential energy (example: heat). However, this conversion does not affect the total mass of systems, since the latter forms of non-matter energy still retain their mass through any such conversion.[1]
Today, conservation of “energy” refers to the conservation of the total system energy over time. This energy includes the energy associated with the rest mass of particles and all other forms of energy in the system. In addition, the invariant mass of systems of particles (the mass of the system as seen in its center of mass inertial frame, such as the frame in which it would need to be weighed) is also conserved over time for any single observer, and (unlike the total energy) is the same value for all observers. Therefore, in an isolated system, although matter (particles with rest mass) and "pure energy" (heat and light) can be converted to one another, both the total amount of energy and the total amount of mass of such systems remain constant over time, as seen by any single observer. If energy in any form is allowed to escape such systems (see binding energy), the mass of the system will decrease in correspondence with the loss.
A consequence of the law of energy conservation is that perpetual motion machines can only work perpetually if they deliver no energy to their surroundings.

Laws are meant to be broken...

reply to post by rnaa


*sigh*

He isn't running his house on 12 Volts.

He's running the Energizer on 12 Volts.

The Energizer charges up lots of batteries with copious amounts of Radiant energy. That is the claim.

Once you have a lot of batteries charged up, you use THOSE to power your house.

The trick is that I don't think you can have the batteries charging up with Radiant and powering a load at the same time. So you have to use multiple banks of batteries and some sort of switching system to alternate between charging and discharging.

I've seen this idea many times. Not to say that they are all flawed but many of them only work "in theory". As for the reality of "free" energy; yes I believe it exists and I believe we could easily harness it if we didn't rely on pompous physicists who ride on the backs of other respected theories which came before them. People cite Einstein as if he was flawless when quite a few of his theories have been shot down. When you stay inside the box that's already been created, you can only create objects with the resources from inside the box (unless you were the product of an advanced double-slit experiment ).

If you think outside the box, your imagination provides all the resources necessary to create. All the natural vibrations around us and we have to burn stuff just to produce frequencies? I refuse to believe that is the only way when there's an entire universe at our disposal. Practically everything seems to give off vibrations of some sort and you're telling me that one simple theoretical law prevents us from harnessing it?

You may have been born into and raised up in the box, but have faith that there's a way to get out because there always is. Maybe we just haven't developed the right tools which could detect, convert, and carry the energy properly. I don't know because I don't have expertise in the field, but can one of the jerks who does have expertise stop whining about what can't happen and try messing around with nature, for all of us? Oh yeah, that's right, the people who do that are called nut jobs and hoaxes instead of being encouraged for their freethinking on the behalf of humanity.

GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF EACH OTHERS' ARSES!

reply to post by cupocoffee

"Anyone who studies physics and electromagnetism and thinks for himself knows it doesn't work"

Wow, I love all the assumptions you're making!

The way I see it - you haven't done the experiments, so you don't know anything. You THINK you know for certain, but you don't.

The only people who matter here are the people who have gotten the kits and done the experiments.

I've read all kinds of Bedini threads, and it's always the same. The people who go on and on about how it can't work never DO THE EXPERIMENTS.

Meanwhile most of the people who actually TRY and who DO THE EXPERIMENT are like, "Wow, cool!!"

Go get a kit and try it, or go do the 'School Girl Motor' Bedini-101 experiment, and provide evidence of such, then your opinion will matter....

I don't need to personally do the experiments. Others have, and published, and we can move on and do something else. I am personally not interested in such a school girl motor toy, because that is all it is. The CD clarifiers have been tested by several audio labs and shown to be completely useless. Randi has declared it eligible for his 'paranormal proof' prize but Belini refuses to try to claim it. The charger charges batteries, yeah, well so do lots of chargers. I'm very happy with the seven or eight I've got around my house, what does that prove?

See, the way science works is that an observation is made, experiments are conducted to collect data describing the circumstances of the observation, hypotheses are proposed to explain as much of the observed data as possible, then those results and the hypotheses are discussed until a consensus is reached on which hypothesis or set of hypotheses best explains the phenomena and the hypothesis becomes a theory. After that, science can use that theory as input to the next problem, and so on and so on, continually building on the work that has gone on before. Until new data comes along that forces a rethink on the earlier theory. New hypotheses addressing that new data MUST, be at least as good at the original theory, and this means that few longstanding theories are thrown away altogether, they just get refined. Its pretty obvious that if we found out something completely new about electricity today, that our TV's and refrigerators would not stop working.

The thing about electromagnetics is that it has been studied for so long, is so well understood, is tested and retested every day, by every device in every corner of the globe and in orbit, that new information cannot possibly overthrow what we know about it. It can add to the theory, refine it, but not overthrow it, and certainly not the fundamental core that is so certain that it is often called a law.

Free energy people want you to think that the theory can be overthrown and replaced by their version. They have to convince you of that, because it is the only way that you can contemplate the impossible. They have to take away your thoughtful reason, and replace it with faith. They have to make you want to believe it could happen. They are snake oil salesmen.

Some may be self deluded believers in their own favorite fantasy, the best salesmen have to believe in their product after all. But most are simple straight forward con artists.

The "school-girl motor" kits are a nice toys and probably teach some good construction skills. But they run off the battery, and when the battery goes flat they quit, just like the 'real thing'. And they are probably good for elementary school science fairs, where the kid can demonstrate his kit running and then explain why it won't keep running forever.

I've read all kinds of Bedini threads, and it's always the same. The people who go on and on about how every individual on the planet has to DO THE EXPERIMENTS for themselves.

Well, I don't need to build a "school-girl motor", I am well beyond elementary school science fairs. But the promoters of this stuff need YOU to keep trying to sell these kits (not school girl motor kits, Bedini coil kits or Orbo kits or whatever ) in order to create their market.

reply to post by cupocoffee

The trick is that I don't think you can have the batteries charging up with Radiant and powering a load at the same time. So you have to use multiple banks of batteries and some sort of switching system to alternate between charging and discharging.

He had his input car batteries hooked up to produce 24 volts to drive the motor. His output voltage was under 12 volts and he said he could get to 12 volts by adding some windings to the cores.

The bank switching was a load balancing mechanism to ensure the four input car batteries ran down fairly evenly. If one drains faster than the others, it is taken off line and is presumably charged from the output generator, or at least that is what he tries to imply in the video. Since the output energy is guaranteed to be less than the input energy (in spite of claims to the contrary) the input batteries will eventually run down and the machine will stop.

Originally posted by rnaa
The thing about electromagnetics is that it has been studied for so long, is so well understood,

Really? So where do magnetic and electromagnetic fields come from then? How is it that magnets can do work but they don't require any fuel or energy source?

Free energy people want you to think that the theory can be overthrown and replaced by their version. They have to convince you of that, because it is the only way that you can contemplate the impossible. They have to take away your thoughtful reason, and replace it with faith. They have to make you want to believe it could happen.

Not at all. It doesn't have to "overthrow" standard theory, just add to it.

It's just a different form of energy, with different properties - "Radiant" energy. There aren't instruments to measure it with yet so most people don't realize it's there.

Bedini discovered that batteries can capture that energy and transform it into useable power.

That's all. Very simple stuff actually.

Well, I don't need to build a "school-girl motor", I am well beyond elementary school science fairs. But the promoters of this stuff need YOU to keep trying to sell these kits (not school girl motor kits, Bedini coil kits or Orbo kits or whatever ) in order to create their market.

Be careful about accusing me of being some sort of salesman or promotor for Bedini.

All I am suggesting is that we (we as in, the ATS community) get a few kits and test them out. I was even willing to donate the kits for testing. I am trying to donate the damn things, not sell them!

Originally posted by rnaa

The bank switching was a load balancing mechanism to ensure the four input car batteries ran down fairly evenly. If one drains faster than the others, it is taken off line and is presumably charged from the output generator, or at least that is what he tries to imply in the video. Since the output energy is guaranteed to be less than the input energy (in spite of claims to the contrary) the input batteries will eventually run down and the machine will stop.

No. Because on the output side, you can put a whole giant pile of batteries, 1800 amp-hours worth, and the energizer charges them all up with Radiant energy. That is the claim.

Set up some kind of switching system so that you can have one bank powering the house and one bank being charged, and just switch them every so often, and then you have something that runs itself and also powers the house.

Originally posted by cupocoffee
It has everything to do with the reality.

Do you know what the reality is? Do you have any idea how much resources goes into suppressing this kind of technology? Can you tell me how it is that the dollar is backed by oil?

I have been studying Bedini and Bearden stuff off and on for years now, and it's always the same.

I know the context you intend to mean but truer words were never spoken.

Most of the people who actually try their experiments report positive results.

There could be many reasons for that. I know if I couldn't be accepted anywhere else I would try to fit in.

The skeptics and debunkers who say it can't work never actually try the experiments, and when challenged to do so they go, "No, I won't. I refuse to waste my time and money on that. I already know it won't work...."

People want science, not hocus pocus stage tricks. We know it was done, long ago by our reckoning. The copy cats do not work, and in fact are not meant to.

The fact is, Bedini has many supporters, people who have done the experiments and who know it works. That is fact. Go to any board where Bedini stuff is discussed regularly like overunity.com or energeticforums.com or peswiki.com and see for yourself.

The fact is, I have not yet seen a simple box which can be taken anywhere and fully light a 100W bulb screwed into the top. Until it burns out, then another one is screwed in with the same results.

The only people whose opinions actually matter here are the ones who have done the experiments and have direct hands-on experience. The rest I couldn't care less about.

So you couldn't care less about theory.

Why do you have to unify the four forces and demystify subatomic particles to have a theory on free energy?

You are gonna have to. You can't have a repeatable process without one. You can't have a science without the foundation. Until all myths are dispelled, there is no way any device like this will become mainstream.

reply to post by cupocoffee


But why involve batteries at all?

As I tried to point out in an earlier post, batteries consume something like a third of the available produced energy just in charging them and there's no way around that unless you invent the perfect battery first. In the case of bedini type devices and the associated claims of OU, looping the output back to the input would make that third of overall input energy available for external use (that's if the claims are honest that is).

I'm not trying to stifle research, I'm all for it as long as it's realistic.

Really? So where do magnetic and electromagnetic fields come from then? How is it that magnets can do work but they don't require any fuel or energy source?

Magnets do not do work and they are not an energy source. They allow us to convert mechanical energy into electrical energy and vice versa. iirc, magnetic fields are generated in the presence of a changing electric field.... electrons spin around atoms which might explain it although I am not sure how correct that is.

This theory that the OP is based on reminds me of a swing set. In essence the OP is saying that in a swing each successive stroke will be higher than the last because it's extracting energy from gravity. As we all know, that is not the case because gravity like magnetism is not an actual energy source.

reply to post by dereks


If you placed a 100 pound neodymium magnet on an iron wall and left it there to see when it would fall down...
Would the "force" it would take to hold it there be more then what made it ?

It would probably stay on the iron wall 100 years at least, dont know how much force it would take to hold 100 pounds up for 100 years, but I bet its more then the coil put out to make it in the first place..

Am I understanding this right ?, or is there some magic to it ?

Originally posted by R3KR
reply to post by dereks

 

If you placed a 100 pound neodymium magnet on an iron wall and left it there to see when it would fall down...
Would the "force" it would take to hold it there be more then what made it ?

It would probably stay on the iron wall 100 years at least, dont know how much force it would take to hold 100 pounds up for 100 years, but I bet its more then the coil put out to make it in the first place..

Am I understanding this right ?, or is there some magic to it ?

Force doesn't necessary have much to do with energy.

A clamp can exert a very large magnitude of force, but it's not expending energy while clamped to something. You can clamp a clamp to an iron wall for 100 years but that doesn't mean it has used more energy than what created it, actually it's not using any energy at all. Clamps do not have electrical cords, after all.

reply to post by C0bzz


Hee hee...cupo's reply to maa is a clear example how people get sucked into these disinfo campaigns due to a lack of knowledge.

I bet he also "believes" that magnetic "lines" can be "cut". No hard feelings, I was there once too. Recalling the farming model, a plow does not cut another row, like this __|__ , but instead like this _/|\_. We call it superimposition, and it is very important when finding where the math fails to reflect reality. Also applies to "cancel".

What do you think? We could wind up getting real deep into it and convince no one to drop their erroneous beliefs.

reply to post by cupocoffee

Really? So where do magnetic and electromagnetic fields come from then? How is it that magnets can do work but they don't require any fuel or energy source?

If you ever get to 8th grade, you'll study all about it in your Physical Science course. But for a teaser, here is the summary from the Wikipedia article on Electromagnetism:

Electromagnetism is one of the four fundamental interactions of nature, along with strong interaction, weak interaction and gravitation. It is the force that causes the interaction between electrically charged particles; the areas in which this happens are called electromagnetic fields.

Electromagnetism is the force responsible for practically all the phenomena encountered in daily life (with the exception of gravity). Ordinary matter takes its form as a result of intermolecular forces between individual molecules in matter. Electromagnetism is also the force which holds electrons and protons together inside atoms, which are the building blocks of molecules. This governs the processes involved in chemistry, which arise from interactions between the electrons orbiting atoms.

The force of electromagnetism is manifested both in electric fields and magnetic fields; both are simply different aspects of electromagnetism, and hence are intrinsically related to each other. Thus, a changing electric field generates a magnetic field; conversely a changing magnetic field generates an electric field. This effect is called electromagnetic induction, and is the basis of operation for electrical generators, induction motors, and transformers. Mathematically speaking, magnetic fields and electric fields are convertible with relative motion as a four vector.

Electric fields are the cause of several common phenomena, such as electric potential (such as the voltage of a battery) and electric current (such as the flow of electricity through a flashlight). Magnetic fields are the cause of the force associated with magnets.

In quantum electrodynamics, electromagnetic interactions between charged particles can be calculated using the method of Feynman diagrams, in which we picture messenger particles called virtual photons being exchanged between charged particles. This method can be derived from the field picture through perturbation theory.

The theoretical implications of electromagnetism led to the development of special relativity by Albert Einstein in 1905.

Be careful about accusing me of being some sort of salesman or promotor for Bedini.

This wasn't you then?

The way I see it - you haven't done the experiments, so you don't know anything. You THINK you know for certain, but you don't.

The only people who matter here are the people who have gotten the kits and done the experiments.

I've read all kinds of Bedini threads, and it's always the same. The people who go on and on about how it can't work never DO THE EXPERIMENTS.

Meanwhile most of the people who actually TRY and who DO THE EXPERIMENT are like, "Wow, cool!!"

Go get a kit and try it, or go do the 'School Girl Motor' Bedini-101 experiment, and provide evidence of such, then your opinion will matter....

I know the School-Girl motor plans are free. But you are trying to encourage me do get the kits and do the experiments; you are using weasel words so that you can deny it, but you are never the less trying to claim that I can't make a valid review based on other peoples work, that I have to get the kits and do it myself. And I didn't restrict my comments to Bedini's kits; I refered to any of the snake-oil salesmen.