So you want Free Energy?

Sorry, it won't work. As the poster above has pointed out, in essence you've described a motor connected to a generator. Neither device is 100% efficient (the heat produced is a good example of energy being converted to another form) and so this closed system cannot run without an outside source of energy. The permanent magnets don't count as an energy source, because a magnetic field can't produce current without motion.

Even if you were able to obtain 100% efficiency then all of the energy from the generator would be needed to run the motor; any attempts to draw current from the generator to use for anything else (like charging batteries) would load the circuit and take energy away from the motor, causing it to slow down or stop.

Let me assure you that I'm not just accepting what some textbook told me as fact...I've done lots of experimentation over 20 years along these lines to prove to myself how things work (and how they don't work).

Sorry, it's a nice idea but not a new one.

Originally posted by C0bzz

The generator turns itself using it's own electro magnetism.

Could you please explain how a generator would turn all by itself? This statement is baffling.

edit on 021010021010 by C0bzz because: (no reason given)

I did explain that, that's why I made the video which you said you didn't even watch. The energy to turn the device is technically coming from the permanent magnets inside the generator which is where the electricity is coming from. One turns some coiled copper wire through a magnetic field and electricity is inducted into the wire. Can you spin coper wire without a magnetic field and induce electricity? No, so the magnetic field is the secret ingredient then now isn't it? Yes you need to give the device an initial push to start the motion, but once the electricity starts flowing the magnetic field sustains it's motion. Now I would suggest you watch the video before making any more comments like your previous one. I'm sorry you seem to be so against using ones brain to come up with ideas about stuff.

reply to post by avocadoshag


The electro magnets can be strengthened by adding additional coils, for every bit of resistance encountered one can simply add additional coils to the electro magnets thereby increasing the strength of the field generated. How is it that the magnetic field's strength can be increased almost infinitely, yet you believe the resistance cannot be overcome?

Moreover I don't know why people are calling this a hoax. I'm not trying to profit off of this, simply presenting an idea, what benefit would I receive by hoaxing people?

I watched the video after making my first reply. Then I responded with post #2.

Generators don't convert magnetic energy into electricity, they convert mechanical energy into electricity. iirc, magnets work because all of the particles are facing the same direction. They don't hold vast sums of magnetic energy. They loose strength over time not because the energy within them is lost, but because the particles change orientation. They are not batteries and generators do not turn by themselves. Generators can be fairly efficient, although they are never 100% efficient. The system will therefore slow down by itself rather quickly if you manually 'push' start it.

As for your video, they're very professionally made, and you're obviously very skilled with IT work. I apologise if I came off as rude in my previous posts... by hoax I mean, eventually regarded as incorrect, rather than deliberate lies. Apologies...

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by avocadoshag

 

The electro magnets can be strengthened by adding additional coils, for every bit of resistance encountered one can simply add additional coils to the electro magnets thereby increasing the strength of the field generated. How is it that the magnetic field's strength can be increased almost infinitely, yet you believe the resistance cannot be overcome?

Moreover I don't know why people are calling this a hoax. I'm not trying to profit off of this, simply presenting an idea, what benefit would I receive by hoaxing people?

I didn't call it a hoax, and I'm sure you won't profit from this. But it's not a new idea; the concept of getting a generator to run a motor which turns the generator has been proposed countless times over hundreds of years. And has failed to operate 100% of those times.

I'm not an expert in DC machines but here's what I know: if you turn a generator it will move relatively freely. Add a load (such as a motor) and now the generator becomes more difficult to turn and loses momentum, slowing down slightly. That means the motor will receive less current, at a time when it is being asked to work harder to turn the generator. The motor then demands more current to operate, further loading the generator. It's a runaway cycle.

Symbiot, I'm pretty sure I won't convince you but I know that your device can't work. Ever. You'll not convince me either, not with diagrams or debate because they are all fundamentally flawed. The only piece of evidence that could turn me into a believer in perpetual motion (which is what you're describing) is a working model. Good luck building one!

Completely agree with c0bzz

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by earthdude

 

The generator turns itself using it's own electro magnetism. The magnetic energy around the flowing electricity turns the armature which in turn spins the shaft of the DC generator generating the electricity that then creates the magnetic field that turns the armature. It's generating it's own energy.

i think what you meant was

The generator *might be* able to turn itself using *some of* it's own electro magnetism. The magnetic energy around the flowing electricity *somewhat* turns the armature which in turn *kind of* spins the shaft of the DC generator generating *a bit of* electricity that then creates the magnetic field that *might be able to* turn the armature. *So when you look at it carefully* It's *not really* generating it's own energy.



If this really works why doesnt every household have one?

Are you running your house from one?

reply to post by avocadoshag


Sorry avocadoshag, the hoax statement wasn't directed at you it was directed at the other guy that called this a hoax, I just didn't see a need to make an additional post to address it.

True the two of us are unlikely to convince each other one way or another, but stimulating debate is part of the reason I posted this here and unfortunately that seems to be lacking. You actually have some good counter points though so I thank you for your postings.

What you are talking about is called magnetic hysteresis I believe and I am aware of that. My proposal is that this, and other, resistance can be overcome by simply increasing the amount of coils around the electro-magnets thereby increasing the magnetic repulsion force. Now I believe the electro-magnets can be coiled as many times as necessary to overcome any resistance encountered as the armature rotates.

In regards to stimulating debate my concern here is that I was hoping for some good counter points that I could then rebut against, which was done in this and the previous post finally. When people simply speak of the laws of physics what you're really saying is that it won't work because some dead guy said it won't work. What I'm looking for is why won't it work. If you don't believe this device will work then go ahead and challenge yourselves to come up with a few good reasons as to why you believe it will not work.

reply to post by danredd


You are correct the terms 'might be able to' and such could've been included in a few of my statements. I didn't include those terms because I believe I've mentioned in a few posts here that I am not stating that this is a working device, but merely a concept that I believe can work. Having said that I obviously do not have a working device powering my dwelling space at this time.

As I mentioned in my previous post the purpose of posting this was not to convince people that I'm some type of genius or that this device will most definitely work, but merely to spur some fun debate which is partly what I view this forum as existing for.

reply to post by C0bzz


I gotcha C0bzz, as you know it can sometimes be hard to interpret someones intentions on a forum due to the lack of tone of voice and body language. On that note I hope some of what I said did not come off as an attack towards you, I'm perfectly willing to accept that the two of us can disagree.

You are correct that generators generally convert mechanical energy into electrical energy, the concept I have here would, if it worked, convert magnetic energy into electrical energy. I have used the terms free energy a few times, but as I mentioned in my original post I'm not actually trying to present this as an over unity device as energy would need to be expelled creating/maintaining the device. Moreover energy would need to be expelled in the creation/replacement of batteries and such that store the electricity the device would generate. Energy would need to be expelled in the form of mining for magnets to construct the DC generator and a variety of other parts. Thank you for explaining your position on permanent magnets not actually being permanent, I haven't done any research myself on the subject, but since this is not actually a perpetual motion machine that doesn't matter a whole lot. I never intended for this device to work forever unabated, as the permanent magnets wear out the device would cease to function, but if it worked it should provide electricity for a good deal of time and likely reduce energy costs by a great deal and serve to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and dependency on sources of energy that might be increasingly more dangerous to acquire.

Very Interesting thread Symbiot, I thought this was a proven idea.

I don't know why people have to argue about these things.

Here is a YuoTube video of the Permanent Magnet concept at work.

please click on this link
www.youtube.com...


Peace

reply to post by FutureThinker


Well that is certainly a very similar concept and clearly it works. More than one way to skin a cat I believe is the old saying eh... Anyway I suppose if that device were connected to a generator it would need to overcome additional resistance, but permanent magnets certainly come in a variety of strengths. There are neodymium magnets that can lift over 10,000 lbs! Also I believe the Germans have a working maglev train that uses permanent magnets as opposed to electro-magnets.

reply to post by Symbiot


So, what we have here is a DC generator (the core) running an electric motor (in inner rail, armature, and dozens of small coils) and a DC generator (the outer rail) . The coils are going to generate so much darn heat that the thing is going to melt down before you get any usable energy out of it.

What is the purpose of the outer generator? The core is already generating more energy than the outer rail ever could, and the motor part is consuming more energy than the core can produce. Why not quite while you are ahead. Oh that's right, you would need to keep dumping energy in to it to keep it running. Add the heat energy lost by the coils, and the reduced energy output of the outer rail and it all results in the device stopping almost before it starts.

Sorry, fail.

There is a reason why this 'device' is only illustrated with some fancy graphics: a real device will never work.

Review item 6 here: Weird Science

reply to post by rnaa


Actually future thinker up there posted a vid that proves this type of concept is sound. Additionally any electro magnet generates heat, any electricity at all generates heat, but this device would not create all that much heat. You can create your own electro magnet by coiling copper wire around a nail and connecting it to a battery. I recommend something like a AA so you don't accidentally hurt yourself. Notice how not much heat is created by the electro magnet. I really don't see where you're getting the notion that the device would melt, you honestly think the generator would have to put up with more heat than say a fighter jet? Obviously we have materials that can withstand quite a bit of heat. Notice how junk yards make use of electro magnets that can pick up the weight of cars and trucks yet they do not melt. Notice how maglev trains make use of electro-magnets powerful enough to push a train plus people and cargo at hundreds of miles an hour yet they do not melt.

reply to post by Symbiot


Melting was hyperbole.

However, jet engines are not made out of copper wire. Electrical devices do melt all the time when coils are overloaded. That is why amplifiers have giant, heavy, heat sinks. That is why your lap gets hot when you try to use your laptop on your lap.

This device would waste more energy as heat than it could possibly deliver as usable energy.

reply to post by rnaa


Well I disagree. I am well aware that electricity produces heat, I even mentioned that as a hurdle in an earlier post, but the amount of heat you are talking about is highly unlikely. The melting point of copper is 1083 degrees. Now if you were to make this device large enough to power an entire town or even a city then heat would pose a major problem, but I'm talking about powering single households which wouldn't require any where near the amount of power needed to reach 1083 degrees. What you are saying is that this device would need electro magnets that would be powerful enough overcome more resistance than pushing a maglev train at hundreds of miles per hour which is clearly not the case. The largest amount of resistance encountered by this device is from magnetic hysteresis and you've got to be joking if you think that's enough to require electromagnets strong enough to create 1083 degrees.

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by rnaa

 

Actually future thinker up there posted a vid that proves this type of concept is sound.

"Proof" is a very strong word. You need a hell of a lot more than a YouTube video to "prove" something, especially when the concept is so fundamentally flawed. Anyway, this thread is going to go round and round in circles (unlike the proposed perpetual motion device) so I'm out of here!

reply to post by john_bmth


As I have said numerous times this is not a perpetual motion device, it would need maintenance from time to time, batteries would need replacing and such. I guess it doesn't matter how many times I say it, you jokers will just keep pretending that people should not be creative.

Amazing how many people are out there that try to keep people from using their brain...

reply to post by Symbiot


Check out the Infinite Universe Model

Just to keep the thread alive....

KEEP UP THE WORK symbiot..If you can come up with a device that DO work..
I´ll buy one...

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by john_bmth

 

As I have said numerous times this is not a perpetual motion device, it would need maintenance from time to time, batteries would need replacing and such. I guess it doesn't matter how many times I say it, you jokers will just keep pretending that people should not be creative.

Amazing how many people are out there that try to keep people from using their brain...

edit on 2-10-2010 by Symbiot because: (no reason given)

You have a motor that magically powers itself. Numerous other posters in this thread have pointed out the rather gaping flaws in your idea. It is neither creative nor using your brain to persist with such a flawed idea in light of such information.