The Roots of "Sharia" Hysteria

OP's main question:

"Should we really be afraid that Sharia law is coming to the U.S.? I'd like all opinions."

I don't think you have very much to worry about within the US. You have some fairly clear cut rules for administrating systematic wide legal changes, which is what instating Sharia Law would entail. It will be many, many decades before Muslims will have the demographic strength neccesary to change the entire legal system.

Now, here is where the changes may occur. If the Muslim populations go about this the same way some other minority groups have, you might see certain elements enter the US legal system. Now, would that be a bad thing? I don't really think so, most of the minority group's laws that have passed, have been fairly good extensions of already existing laws.

My opinion, why not cherry pick some of it? Not all of Sharia law is bad, not all is good, but if you can create some positive change inside the current US legal system, by cherry picking some of Sharia's finer points. Why not?

Originally posted by Sestias
reply to post by RainCloud

 

Thank you for your detailed explanation as to how Sharia law applies to Muslim marriages. I understand much more now.

I would like to ask you, though, how difficult is it for a woman who asks for a divorce under Sharia law? Is she socially outcast? Because she is complaining about something that, according to religious law, is perfectly acceptable for married people is she even listened to?

It is true that under Christianity and Christian law women have also suffered many things from their husbands that we do not accept now.

As americandingbat has said, this is as much a women's issue as it is a religious one.

Thanks for your interest.
how difficult is it for a woman who asks for a divorce under Sharia law?
Merely walk or meet a qadhi, explain what went wrong, then qadhi will call both party to discuss the matter with a committee, if its mild problem, then a counseling will be provided, for serious matter - abuse or total neglect etc by husband then the qadhi have power to divorce them for benefit of the women. If the husband/wife really want/need her then the wife/husband/both should change.

Is she socially outcast? Because she is complaining about something that, according to religious law, is perfectly acceptable for married people is she even listened to?
No, shes not social outcast or neglected at all, she merely confuse her husband rights to her. If she doesnt want him, she always can refer to a qadhi to resolve the matter. The action shes done - rejecting her husband to sleep with her, already shows she doesnt know her husband rights in Islam.

Without even knowing them, I suspected shes a convert because of love, not because of faith, thus why we have this situation. Her husband action (choosing syaria law) also show this, because he have the rights to her in Islam.

Originally posted by neo96
i guess you dont have any problems with rape because thats the way it sounds.

Please explain this statement. Can you explain how any one thing I have stated would make you believe such a thing? From reading so many of your posts on ATS, I am really starting to wonder about your purpose here. Either there is a bit of "extra" in there or you are just having a bit of trolling fun. The fact that you would even attempt to smear me with something so disgusting kind of exposes you for what you are.

and you know what does school have anything to do with anything at all on this site. and you really want to go there i have been out of school for more than 20 years i have been to college as well i have my phds and double doctorates in real life real heartache and real adversity..

School has nothing to do with anything on ATS. I just thought that if you were under 19 years of age, your posts might be a bit more reasonable. Thank you for taking away my doubt.

real life is the best teacher that any school and college will ever be.

Real life does not seem to be doing the best job with literacy.

as to my status as an american which i clearly am my family has been in this country for over 250 years my family is of european descent i am uniquely american.

Ok then.

as to that judges decision that woman could have been raped and agian and agian and murdered it should not have ever happened.

That sounds familiar.

in this persons opinion you need to take a step back and stop expecting everyone to do everything the way you want them to simple fact they dont have to do anything at all.

What

are

you

talking about?

reply to post by Curiousisall


im getting tired of this i seriously am.

argue the post attack the post if you must but you clearly go after the poster every single time on here.

beyond this post its the last time i have anything to say to.


i have lost all patience with you and i am moving on. feel free to do whatever you want

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Curiousisall

 

im getting tired of this i seriously am.

argue the post attack the post if you must but you clearly go after the poster every single time on here.

Seen a mirror lately?

Originally posted by neo96
i guess you dont have any problems with rape because thats the way it sounds.

All I did was ask someone to back up their claim and now you are telling me that I personally approve of rape and then that I am doing nothing but attacking people.

Riiiiight.

beyond this post its the last time i have anything to say to.


i have lost all patience with you and i am moving on. feel free to do whatever you want

I guess I am going to really miss you moving goal posts, putting words in my mouth, misrepresenting the things people say, and your generally unpleasant manner of saying things and then running from them while tossing out off topic barbs. Seeya!

Originally posted by RainCloud

Thanks for your interest.
how difficult is it for a woman who asks for a divorce under Sharia law?
Merely walk or meet a qadhi, explain what went wrong, then qadhi will call both party to discuss the matter with a committee, if its mild problem, then a counseling will be provided, for serious matter - abuse or total neglect etc by husband then the qadhi have power to divorce them for benefit of the women. If the husband/wife really want/need her then the wife/husband/both should change.

Is a woman's voice equal to a man's? Are a woman's allegations equal to a man's allegations? Are women inferior to men, or are men superior to women; under Sharia Law?

Are there laws that protect women and/or children?

Why in this day an age does anyone feel the need to follow a religion in the first place? Why can't people just diferenciate the good from the bad and keep to their own views? I frankly view devout muslims like devout catholics basically, either bloody hypocrites or fools! The big mistake all devoted followers of religion make is that theres is the only true way, when infact there way is only a small portion of the way.

Originally posted by SourGrapes

Originally posted by RainCloud

Thanks for your interest.
how difficult is it for a woman who asks for a divorce under Sharia law?
Merely walk or meet a qadhi, explain what went wrong, then qadhi will call both party to discuss the matter with a committee, if its mild problem, then a counseling will be provided, for serious matter - abuse or total neglect etc by husband then the qadhi have power to divorce them for benefit of the women. If the husband/wife really want/need her then the wife/husband/both should change.

Is a woman's voice equal to a man's? Are a woman's allegations equal to a man's allegations? Are women inferior to men, or are men superior to women; under Sharia Law?

Are there laws that protect women and/or children?

Originally posted by SourGrapes


Is a woman's voice equal to a man's? Are a woman's allegations equal to a man's allegations? Are women inferior to men, or are men superior to women; under Sharia Law?

Are there laws that protect women and/or children?

A women have voice, opinions and accepted as equal male opinions but not decisions.
I'm not english speaker so I dont really understood allegations, but if a women have her say, it is never rejected and treated on same par/level, however decision making rights mainly belong to male. On punishment, both hall receive according to the law, no specialty.

Female are at same level to male counterpart except during religious matter - praying, ceremonies etc. Sharia law protect and regulate women rights, without it female rights and responsibility might have problem. However, certain region enforce this too extreme and disregard completely the modesty Islam propose, thus we have bad reputations, not to mention the news was compounded by mass media and women right activist who dont have a clue about the matter.

If you really into women rights, consider looking into other certain region and in totally bad state, muslim women is doing far better then them IMHO.
Hint: Human trafficking and as commodity, mostly teenage women and kids.

New Jersey Family Judge Accepts 'Sharia Defense' to Excuse Spousal Rape

www.associatedcontent.com...

Women's 'Rights' under Sharia Law

(1) The wife must have sex whenever the husband wishes.

(2) A husband has the moral and religious right and duty to beat his wives for disobedience or for perceived misconduct.

(3) In order to protect their morality women can have no contact with men to whom they are not related without the presence of a male relative.

(4) Women are expected to cover their whole bodies bar their faces and their hands up to their wrists. The Sharia is totally opposed to freedom of dress for women.

(5) A woman does not have the right to choose her husband, or her place of residence, to travel freely or have freedom in her choice of clothing.

(6) A woman counts as half a man in giving evidence in a court of law, or in matters of inheritance.

(7) A man can easily divorce a woman by pronouncing that he is divorcing her three times.

(9) Polygamy with up to four wives is permitted.

(8) Women have little or no autonomy and are deemed to need the protection of their fathers, husbands or other male relatives throughout their lives.

(10) The legal age of marriage varies from country to country, ranging from 9 in Iran to 13, 15 or 17 (in Tunisia). This follows from the marriage of Mohammed to Aisha, a 9-year-old girl, when the Prophet was 53. It should be noted, however, that the Prophet was allowed many actions by Allah that were denied to the other faithful, and not all Muslim scholars would accept the Aisha marriage as a precedent.

(11) In many Islamic countries a Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim man whereas Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.ntpi.org...

Originally posted by RainCloud
Is a woman's voice equal to a man's? Are a woman's allegations equal to a man's allegations? Are women inferior to men, or are men superior to women; under Sharia Law?

Are there laws that protect women and/or children?

At least 85 Islamic sharia courts are operating in Britain, a study claimed yesterday.

Mr MacEoin said: 'Among the rulings we find some that advise illegal actions and others that transgress human rights standards as applied by British courts.'

And a 2003 judgment of the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg said it was 'difficult to declare one's respect for democracy and human rights while at the same time supporting a regime based on sharia, which clearly diverges from Convention values.'

Examples set out in his study include a ruling that no Muslim woman may marry a non-Muslim man unless he converts to Islam and that any children of a woman who does should be taken from her until she marries a Muslim.

'Under sharia, a male child belongs to the father after the age of seven, regardless of circumstances.'

However, they operate behind doors that are closed to independent observers and their decisions are likely to be unfair to women and backed by intimidation, a report by independent think-tank Civitas said.

Further rulings, according to the report, approve polygamous marriage and enforce a woman's duty to have sex with her husband on his demand.

The Civitas study said the Islamic courts should no longer be recognised under British law.

Its director Dr David Green said: 'The reality is that for many Muslims, sharia courts are in practice part of an institutionalised atmosphere of intimidation, backed by the ultimate sanction of a death threat.'

Philip Davies, Tory MP for Shipley, said: 'Everyone should be deeply concerned about the extent of these courts

Veteran Tory Lord Tebbit provoked anger among Muslims earlier this month by comparing Islamic sharia courts to gangsters.

He likened the tribunals to the 'system of arbitration of disputes that was run by the Kray brothers'.

Lord Tebbit told the Lords: 'Are you not aware that there is extreme pressure put upon vulnerable women to go through a form of arbitration that results in them being virtually precluded from access to British law?'


www.dailymail.co.uk...

reply to post by ollncasino


And just 40 years ago, in Texas, you could find 15 year old strippers, because that was the minimun age for marriage and if your owner, sorry, I mean "Husband" allowed you to "have a job", you could.

I am with curious here.
So, we get the bold statement sharia law is used.
We get one case
In it the judge looks at the defendants culture to determine criminal intent, and goes too far. It is successfully appealed.
Now criminal intent does not determine wether what you did was wrong or not, it just has influence on the punishment. Example: I swing a baseball bat, you lose a tooth. What punishment should I get? Should I get the same if I hit the ball with the baseball bat, and it slipped your fingers when you tried to catch it, as i should if you lost a tooth because you were lying bound on the floor while I beat you to pulp with the bat?

reply to post by neo96


The propaganda is so strong with this one that it is...literally pushing me away from the computer..

I think you need to know real people who are "left" as you seem to have only this guy in your head that represents left, and you seem to imagine him saying "I hate America and love muslims"

I've never heard just about anything like what you have said from any left leaning persons I've known.

reply to post by ollncasino



Well I believe this to be true. As I am not a holocaust denier the actual number does not bother me it is the principal. Hence if there are 85, 58, 29 or just one sharia it court it doesn’t matter.

Yes you have done your research but I have to look at the context.

These courts have been operating for decades in the UK. I think that fundamentalist Islam is a complete lifestyle that is probably bad like all fundamentalist religions. Basically the human spirit under fundamentalism is twisted, corseted and yes even subject to “cosmetic surgery” . I know this as I have unfortunately seen Christian fundamentalism close up.

Given that sharia courts have been applied to moslems for decades in the UK. Why the braying hysteria now????

Would we feel better if a xtian flew a jet into the twin towers??

Now Britain faces the double whammy of Islamic terrorists and the “Real Ira” funny that how both terrorists represent fundamentalist book religions. When the first bomb goes of from the Real Ira I hope ATS will be heaving with irate Christians denouncing Christianity and those Irish Americans also completely outraged.

Anyway

What your post does point out and you cannot deny thisis that moslems are doing it to moslems. It is something for them to sort out . That is right if you choose to stay in the abusive end of a religion, relationship or even country. That is fine I may even be sympathetic to you as it is difficult to sever your ties with your culture.

However when you choose to leave because you just can’t take the abuse I will support you. BTW that is exactly what the British government is doing. There are laws to protect those wishing to leave and there are various places of safety set up by women as places of safety for women and children. Yes the womens refuges have been running for over 40 years and do a fine job as places of safety for women and children that are “Men Free” can enter. Okay braying idiots of ATS fell free to denounce this but hey it works. Furthermore what place of safety have you set up?

If sharia law is done insecret then we do not know the verdicts…So how can we denounce what we do not know? Sharia law is not the only quasi constitutional situation in the UK? We have other religious groups and even the way some familie behave. We also have trial by TV!

reply to post by tiger5



sounds like you guys are screwed.

we don't even want to go there, here.

Originally posted by fooks
reply to post by tiger5

 

sounds like you guys are screwed.

we don't even want to go there, here.

Nah we survivied the blitz. These guys are a bunch of wimps. Which is the reason why I am very optimistic that Sharia will not grow outside of the small Islamic community. I think the biggest fear is that people will convert to Islam. I certainly wouldn't but i like the Sufis I have met.

I believe tiger5 have the best view regarding current situation of syaria in UK. It is true some syaria law is quite extreme, but we Muslims, willing to accept it as our way of life.

What your post does point out and you cannot deny thisis that moslems are doing it to moslems. It is something for them to sort out . That is right if you choose to stay in the abusive end of a religion, relationship or even country. That is fine I may even be sympathetic to you as it is difficult to sever your ties with your culture.

If a person so into BDSM lifestyle and get whipped till bleed for his "mistake", what can you do ?its his/her willingness.
If a person so into Islam and get whipped till bleed for his mistake, what can you do ? its his/her willingness.
The syaria law affect to Muslim more than non Muslim and yet, non-Muslim that the one cried about it ?


Muslims try to take over your country with syaria law ? Cmon, give me a break, we're living in the new age where all bit of lands been mapped and claimed already. Theres no need to raise gory crusade, inquisitions or jihad war stuff anymore.
The best solution for Muslims and other religions is to use dual law systems.

Originally posted by RainCloud
I believe tiger5 have the best view regarding current situation of syaria in UK. It is true some syaria law is quite extreme, but we Muslims, willing to accept it as our way of life.



The best solution for Muslims and other religions is to use dual law systems.

edit on 26-9-2010 by RainCloud because: add quote

RainCloud,

You have been so patient and civil in this thread, and I respect you for taking the time and energy to explain some very controversial ideologies and stating your opinion so passively.

While I may be (er, try to be) passive when it comes to cultural differences, I believe this is beyond 'cultural difference' and certainly isn't something to be viewed passively. I'm referring to our legal system, here in the U.S.


I absolutely DO NOT believe there should ever be a 'dual legal system' here, in the United States.

Our court systems have evolved to what they are today. We have evolved, nationally and internationally. We have evolved faster than any other court system, world-wide.

In a flash point of time we have done more to positively change human kind, than any court system in history. We have leveled playing fields for all; made all humans legally equal; and even extended a hand to bring up those of us who've historically been dealt a lesser hand.

I don't care what those cry babies, who haven't a clue how great they have it here in our nation, say about this wonderful country. It is the best, it is the model, and it is still the land that the majority of the world strive to someday walk on.

To allow Sharia Law, or any other law, to be upheld in any one of our courts, is a very clear step backwards. Those who are fortunate enough to find their own fortunes here, should embrace everything the land (and laws) has to offer.

I'll tell you what most Americans are afraid of. We are afraid that our equality, kindness, and charity will be seen as weakness and used against us in a way that takes the very core of this great nation for granted.

We will accept you, we will embrace you. Is it too much to ask for the same in return? I mean, it is our house that you have been invited into. If you come here for a better life, I would hope you want the same for your wives and daughters.

All this Sharia hysteria is based on ignorance and bigotry propelled by bigots like Gingrich.

The meaning of Sharia is path

Sharia is only the exoteric theory of Islamic metaphysics. The esoteric or more inward is known as the Tariqa.

Sharia is outward theory and action and Tariqa is inward theory and action.

Aspects of Sharia in this sense would be equivalent to the Ten Commandments or belief that God is one, as in “Here oh Israel he God is one" in Judaism. It is merely the external religious law of Islam.

All religions have their equivalents to Sharia, which BTW has many different interpretations according to the varying Islamic schools of thought.

According to the Quran it says regarding religion:

“There is no compulsion in religion”

Therefore it is impossible to impose Sharia on anyone who doesn’t want to practice it themselves.

To have a dual law system in a democracy is out of question.

With reference to the many differences stated by OLNCASINO further up,
Sharia law would be bound to produce judgements by majority inconsistent
with the Constitution and therefore invalid. They would have to be quashed,
and the litigation before a US court repeated.

This would make a dual system superfluous.

Even if a marriage was pronounced in a Sharia court room, it would still need
an American Court´s legalization to enter the public registers and have the
name and passport changed. Neither is it of any importance, who verbally
rejects his/her partner three times. It may have a bearing on the alimony
of the wife or husband, again without a legal entitlement, if not ruled in an
American court.

The Sharia court, consisting of males only, because by Sharia women cannot
become judges for lack of competence (see Iranian EBADI peace nobel prize
winner) is only set up to discriminate against women and girls
regarding their inheritance (alimony ?) with only half that of men and boys and
with their testimonies only having half the value of the men´s, which is a
violation of the American Constitution again.

Sure, if a woman accepts a settlement behind closed doors and sticks to it,
it may be o.k. for the Muslim community, but would not be for the majority of
the American people, whose declared wish it is to rule every resident under
the jurisdiction of the US.

Originally posted by inforeal
All this Sharia hysteria is based on ignorance and bigotry propelled by bigots like Gingrich.

The meaning of Sharia is path

Sharia is only the exoteric theory of Islamic metaphysics. The esoteric or more inward is known as the Tariqa.

Sharia is outward theory and action and Tariqa is inward theory and action.

Aspects of Sharia in this sense would be equivalent to the Ten Commandments or belief that God is one, as in “Here oh Israel he God is one" in Judaism. It is merely the external religious law of Islam.

All religions have their equivalents to Sharia, which BTW has many different interpretations according to the varying Islamic schools of thought.

According to the Quran it says regarding religion:

“There is no compulsion in religion”

Therefore it is impossible to impose Sharia on anyone who doesn’t want to practice it themselves.

good, then there is no problem

to take it elsewhere or stfu about it and follow the rules.