A factoid that could be the undoing of the 9/11 conspiracy!!

***THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK AGAINST TRUTHERS, THIS IS JUST AN OBSERVATION THAT IS INTERESTING***

I have long held the notion that if anything the US gov is guilty of only incompetence and not of willful Murder when we talk about 9/11.

ON the Website of Architects and Engineers they list "11 remarkable facts About 9/11"

At position number 7 is this factoid.

7) There were warnings of the impending attacks from at least eleven other countries. Also prior to 9/11, insiders such as John Ashcroft, top military officers, and San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown were warned not to fly.

AE911truth - FACT no7

Now this to most might seem like nothing. But to me it seems very relevant. I have been debating back and forth with truthers on my other thread stating that I don't think the US gov murdered 3000 people.

This little factoid on the AE911truth.org is so telling.

ELEVEN countries warned the US that their could be impending attacks on the US. They warned the US that bin laden and Al Queda were planning on hijacking planes as a possible plan.

Other warnings were that a large scale attack had been passed around Intel sources prior to 9/11 and that warning were issued to Bush and his Admin.


So, if other countries "intel agencies" had prior knowledge of these attacks on the US by Terrorists would it be fair to gauge that the then said attacks were indeed carried out by the terrorist other countries "intel" had discovered.

Many papers reported that Bush was warned of huge attacks on the US in the immediate future.

Guardian - Bush knew of terror plot

CNN - Bush Briefed on hijacking prior to 9/11

NYTIMES - Bush warned of possible Hijackings before 9/11

This really does suggest that the US government are not the ones who actually KILLED and CARRIED out 9/11 but did not jump into action when they could of. This, if anything shows incompetence and negligence on the part of the Bush team. BUT definitely not MURDER.

The truth that the truthers want could be just that the Bush administration be charged with Negligence and failing to act on a terror report. This is a far cry though from being the ones who orchestrated it.

This could be tiny piece of rope needed to bring charges against Bush and Cheney.

I do not see them as the Murderers or the Plotters. Just a pair of stupid people thinking this could not happen on American soil.

So to sum up, this tiny fact that the AE911 truthers have on their FACT page could be the whole conspiracy. I do not think that other countries intel was wrong, not Eleven countries. I think the US got careless and the US got big-headed for want of a better word. You can't accuse the Gov of plotting the attacks and then notifying the world at the same time. This would be a very dumb move. I think the attacks happened as we saw them. But could of been averted if Bush had a brain. the white house claimed Bush did not see this happening in the US with all their security and the budget they had. He basically ignored it. Guilty: YES (of stupidity) Guilty of plotting and Murdering 3000: NO

I think that this might be the sole reason for the cover up by the US government and more than likely the OS is based on truth. However the best place to hide a lie is between two truths.

lets say you plan a fake attack, and you want to make the world believe it was someone else ... you need to plant the seed, so you can use that as evidence later

and thats my perspective on it ...

each one reading this can have their own take on it, and really, it doesnt matter

in the 911 discussion board, there are no winners, everyone is a loser, since, while everyone is here wasting their time discussing, the people that did it are getting away

everyone should be asking them questions, demanding more evidences, more videos

come on, until this day, nobody saw the freaking plane hit the pentagon, isnt that crazy? why wouldnt they release that?

This may be the truth the truthers are seeking in reality as they sure won't be proving anything else in the near future. I can actually believe that the US are that egocentric to think they could not be attacked in such a manner. To me this smells right. No matter how bad the US Administration is they would not kill off their own people in such a manner.

This is a nice point made OP.

reply to post by sassyncute


If Osama bin Laden was a "CIA operative" does your logic still hold? Not that I know either way, of course, but there have been reports asserting as much as early as a month after the attack:
emperors-clothes.com...

and as recently as last month Cuban leader Fidel Castro made headlines with the same accusation:
www.msnbc.msn.com...

I think this has to be considered at least a possibility. As well as the possibility that the "incompetence" you claim was actually complicit inaction.

Just a thought.

Edited to add: Poster above beat me to the punch LOL on the Osama bin ON PAYROLL errr I mean bin laden part and the addendum to known laws of physics and statistics that allow BIG BANG parting of the red sea and every lotto ticket sold in chicago in a day winning type unlikely events to occur .... (which when you add in all the unlikely coincidences that day is the bare minimum of how statistically and physically unlikely the events of that day could have happened as we are told they did)

For example OP you should maybe look up the mysterious coincidences that had an open ended Nation wide Air Defense drill where massive portions of the chain of command were ALL UNAVAILABLE during key time periods which is what allowed the multiple planes actually getting to populated areas portion of the official story. Or the pictures from later in the day showing Dozens of Key structural members all with near identical 45 degree angle and other "failure points" Plus the MOLTEN STEEL RIVERS pouring out of the building... OR even better yet statistically what is just the likelihood that two high rises would fall in their own foot prints from jets hitting them on the same day! Now beyond that We have the BILLIONS OF DOLLARS MADE IN AIRLINE STOCK SHORTS that when brought to light by various financial industry sources were not only NOT INVESTIGATED but said whistle blowers including BANK PRESIDENTS were forced out of their jobs and silenced. OH hey and BONUS ROUND in ISLAMO TERROR BOWL FALSE FLAG OFF hey hey how about the likelihood that 7/7 train bombings in england ALSO occured during a terror drill involving subways thereby impeding response and containment which allowed the follow on attacks to occur due to disorganization of emergency and enforcement personnel....

TWO major incidents which together present a MASSIVE part of the rationale and support of the public for giving up their freedoms and supporting the actions since... both of which are so statistically unlikely they would most likely cause a back to the future style causality violation one point twenty one jigawatts and all if they occured as we are told they did. BUt keep believing what you do and trying to tell people there's no evidence.... just don't try out for jeopardy or who wants to be a millionaire buddy.

Well other than the whole organization that is supposedly responsible for the attack being a CIA front org... You would be right IF that wasn't part of the equation!!

See but when the terrorists are armed funded and backed by one of the country who was attacked own intel agencies ...

Add into that the NEW laws of thermodynamics they had to invent to make their version of events plausible or even physically semi believable... YEah!!!

Your absolute refusal to acknowlege any PROVEN FACTS that do not fit YOUR agenda / version of events makes the act of even responding to this thread a complete waste of time. BUT should you ever choose to acknowledge the Indisputable Facts that you conveniently ignore to make your version of events plausible there will be no debate and you'll post retractions or slink off in shame at your former ignorance.

I doubt that will happen though so enjoy your Jonestown KOOL AID and good day

Originally posted by Faiol
lets say you plan a fake attack, and you want to make the world believe it was someone else ... you need to plant the seed, so you can use that as evidence later

and thats my perspective on it ...

each one reading this can have their own take on it, and really, it doesnt matter

in the 911 discussion board, there are no winners, everyone is a loser, since, while everyone is here wasting their time discussing, the people that did it are getting away

everyone should be asking them questions, demanding more evidences, more videos

come on, until this day, nobody saw the freaking plane hit the pentagon, isnt that crazy? why wouldnt they release that?

Agreed !! Was it something like 85 security cameras that covered that side of the Pentagon.........why can't they show us.....definitely hiding something.

UNLESS, those other countries were not aware that it was an inside job from the beginning. They then did the right thing by "warning" the US, and the admin just laughed at their naivete.

reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross



The "truthers" will only be happy when people stop poking holes in their made up stories.

Now they just say Bin Laden was a CIA operative. Before they used the defense he is not even involved because the FBI don't want him for the attacks. No sense. Just funny people!!

Typical conversation with truthers:

Me: Are you annoyed when people dispute the truthers stories?
Truther: Yes, I can not stand it when people do not agree with us.

Me: Really Does that strike you as wrong?
Truther: No, i am ignorant to anything that belittles the Truth movement.

Me: Would it be hard to admit you are in the worng concerning 9/11?
Truther: Damn right skippy, I refuse to retreat one step, just one step.

Me: Are you easily angered by those who argue with you on 9/11 topics
Truther: Most definitely, I hate all forms of opposition no matter how much REAL fact they bombard me with. Our gruop will assimilate you.


Truthers are burdened with these 4 major symptoms:

1) Concern that people have hidden motives in everything they do

2) Expectation that they will be exploited by others

3) Detachment

4) Hostility

I have to admit that I agree with the OP on this matter. Devil worshiping aside, she has quite possibly spotted the fact that could be so damaging to the truthers movement.

Double post sorry

reply to post by sassyncute

Truthers are burdened with these 4 major symptoms:

1) Concern that people have hidden motives in everything they do

2) Expectation that they will be exploited by others

3) Detachment

4) Hostility

Sorry to burst your bubble mate but thats just silly to paint every truther with the same brush..

I could say all the "Believers" are just "brainwashed sheeple" or dissinfo agents out to muddy the waters with rediculous claims of nuclear bombs and space based weapons..But that would be just acting like you...

The fact is, I believe "NO" story, conspiracy or the OS..

NONE completly explain all the events and distruction that occured on 9/11...

The only difference with the OS version is that the US has acted on it...
Invaded countries, took away rights and has lead to the death of many innocent people....

Not to mention the cost of the war on terror which has played a major part in where the US is now at in financial terms....

SO, Does the OS not deserve a little more scrutiny than the other theories????

reply to post by L1U2C3I4F5E6R


One thing I see OSers do a lot is say that truthers just pick on one little detail to nit pick on..

And here are you, making up your own little fantasy from one of eleven items listed....

And BTW, IF I had been incharge of setting up an inside job such as whats been suggested, of course I would leak some information prior....

But I'd make damn sure it "just" wasn't enough to get the full picture and foil the mission..

reply to post by L1U2C3I4F5E6R


I understand that you don't want to believe the US government would do such a thing, but the evidence doesn't support your theory.- or should I say your imaginoid factoid.

Given the many warnings the US Government had received, the luck of the terrorists was truly phenomenal that day. See all the luck they had in the article below:

This is an extract from a statement made to the 9/11 commission by the wife of one of the victims.

Source:
www.9-11commission.gov...

Quote:

The Theory of Luck
With regard to the 9/11 attacks, it has been said that the intelligence agencies have to be right 100% of the time and the terrorists only have to get lucky once. This explanation for the devastating attacks of September 11th, simple on its face, is wrong in its value. Because the 9/11 terrorists were not just lucky once: they were lucky over and over again. Allow me to illustrate.

The SEC
The terrorist's lucky streak began the week before September 11th with the Securities and Exchange Commission, or SEC. The SEC, in concert with the United States intelligence agencies, has sophisticated software programs that are used in "real-time" to watch both domestic and overseas markets to seek out trends that may indicate a present or future crime. In the week prior to September 11th both the SEC and U.S. intelligence agencies ignored one major stock market indicator, one that could have yielded valuable information with regard to the September 11th attacks.

On the Chicago Board Options Exchange during the week before September 11th, put options were purchased on American and United Airlines, the two airlines involved in the attacks. The investors who placed these orders were gambling that in the short term the stock prices of both Airlines would plummet. Never before on the Chicago Exchange were such large amounts of United and American Airlines options traded. These investors netted a profit of at least $5 million after the September 11th attacks.

Interestingly, the names of the investors remain undisclosed and the $5 million remains unclaimed in the Chicago Exchange account.

Why these aberrant trades were not discovered prior to 9/11? Who were the individuals who placed these trades? Have they been investigated? Who was responsible for monitoring these activities? Have those individuals been held responsible for their inaction?

The INS
Prior to 9/11, our US intelligence agencies should have stopped the 19 terrorists from entering this country for intelligence reasons, alone. However, their failure to do so in 19 instances does not negate the luck involved for the terrorists when it comes to their visa applications and our Immigration and Naturalization Service, or INS.

With regard to the INS, the terrorists got lucky 15 individual times, because 15 of the 19 hijackers' visas should have been unquestionably denied.

Most of the 19 hijackers were young, unmarried, and un-employed males. They were, in short, the "classic over-stay candidates". A seasoned former Consular officer stated in National Review magazine, "Single, idle young adults with no specific destination in the United States rarely get visas absent compelling circumstances."

Yet these 19 young single, unemployed, "classic overstay candidates still received their visas." I am holding in my hand the applications of the terrorists who killed my husband. All of these forms are incomplete and incorrect.

Some of the terrorists listed their means of support as simply "student" failing to then list the name and address of any school or institution. Others, when asked about their means of support for their stay in the US wrote "myself" and provided no further documentation. Some of the terrorists listed their destination in the US as simply "hotel" or "California" or "New York". One even listed his destination as "no".

Had the INS or State Department followed the law, at least 15 of the hijackers would have been denied visas and would not have been in the United States on September 11th, 2001.

Help us to understand how something as simple as reviewing forms for completeness could have been missed at least 15 times. How many more lucky terrorists gained unfettered access into this country? With no one being held accountable, how do know this still isn't happening?

Airline and Airport Security
On the morning of September 11th, the terrorists' luck commenced with airline and airport security. When the 19 hijackers went to purchase their tickets (with cash and/or credit cards) and to receive their boarding passes, nine were singled out and questioned through a screening process. Luckily for those nine terrorists, they passed the screening process and were allowed to continue on with their mission.

But, the terrorist's luck didn't end at the ticket counter; it also accompanied them through airport security, as well. Because how else would the hijackers get specifically contraband items such as box-cutters, pepper spray or, according to one FAA executive summary, a gun on those planes?

Finally, sadly for us, years of GAO recommendations to secure cockpit doors were ignored making it all too easy for the hijackers to gain access to the flight controls and carryout their suicide mission.

FAA and NORAD
Prior to 9/11, FAA and Department of Defense Manuals gave clear, comprehensive instructions on how to handle everything from minor emergencies to full blown hijackings.

These "protocols" were in place and were practiced regularly for a good reason--with heavily trafficked air space; airliners without radio and transponder contact are collisions and/or calamities waiting to happen.

Those protocols dictate that in the event of an emergency, the FAA is to notify NORAD. Once that notification takes place, it is then the responsibility of NORAD to scramble fighter-jets to intercept the errant plane(s). It is a matter of routine procedure for fighter-jets to "intercept" commercial airliners in order to regain contact with the pilot.

If that weren't protection enough, on September 11th, NEADS (or the North East Air Defense System dept of NORAD) was several days into a semiannual exercise known as "Vigilant Guardian". This meant that our North East Air Defense system was fully staffed. In short, key officers were manning the operation battle center, "fighter jets were cocked, loaded, and carrying extra gas on board."

Lucky for the terrorists none of this mattered on the morning of September 11th.

Let me illustrate using just flight 11 as an example.

American Airline Flight 11 departed from Boston Logan Airport at 7:45 a.m. The last routine communication between ground control and the plane occurred at 8:13 a.m. Between 8:13 and 8:20 a.m. Flight 11 became unresponsive to ground control. Additionally, radar indicated that the plane had deviated from its assigned path of flight. Soon thereafter, transponder contact was lost - (although planes can still be seen on radar - even without their transponders).

Two Flight 11 airline attendants had separately called American Airlines reporting a hijacking, the presence of weapons, and the infliction of injuries on passengers and crew. At this point, it would seem abundantly clear that Flight 11 was an emergency.

Yet, according to NORAD's official timeline, NORAD was not contacted until 20 minutes later at 8:40 a.m. Tragically the fighter jets were not deployed until 8:52 a.m. -- a full 32 minutes after the loss of contact with flight 11.

Why was there a delay in the FAA notifying NORAD? Why was there a delay in NORAD scrambling fighter jets? How is this possible when NEADS was fully staffed with planes at the ready and monitoring our Northeast airspace?

Flight's 175, 77 and 93 all had this same repeat pattern of delays in notification and delays in scrambling fighter jets. Delays that are unimaginable considering a plane had, by this time, already hit the WTC

Even more baffling for us is the fact that the fighter jets were not scrambled from the closest air force bases. For example, for the flight that hit the Pentagon, the jets were scrambled from Langley Air Force in Hampton, Virginia rather than Andrews Air Force Base right outside D.C. As a result, Washington skies remained wholly unprotected on the morning of September 11th. At 9:41 a.m. one hour and 11 minutes after the first plane was hijack confirmed by NORAD, Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon. The fighter jets were still miles away. Why?

So the hijackers luck had continued. On September 11th both the FAA and NORAD deviated from standard emergency operating procedures .Who were the people that delayed the notification? Have they been questioned? In addition, the interceptor planes or fighter jets did not fly at their maximum speed.

Had the belatedly scrambled fighter jets flown at their maximum speed of engagement, MACH-12, they would have reached NYC and the Pentagon within moments of their deployment, intercepted the hijacked airliners before they could have hit their targets, and undoubtedly saved lives.

Leadership
Joint Chief Of Staff
The acting Joint Chief of staff on Sept 11th was on the morning of September 11th, he was having a routine meeting . Acting Joint Chief of staff Myers stated that he saw a TV. report about a plane hitting the WTC but thought it was a small plane or something like that. So, he went ahead with his meeting. "Meanwhile the second World Trade Center was hit by another jet. Nobody informed us of that," Myers said. By the time he came out of the meeting the Pentagon had been hit.

Whose responsibility was it to relay this emergency to the Joint Chief of Staff? Have they been held accountable for their error? Surely this represents a breakdown of protocol.

Secretary of Defense
The Secretary of Defense, was at his desk doing paperwork when AA77 crashed into the Pentagon.

As reported, Secretary Rumsfeld felt the building shake, went outside, saw the damage and started helping the injured onto stretchers. After aiding the victims, the Secretary then went into the 'War Room'.

How is it possible that the National Military Command Center, located in the Pentagon and in contact with law enforcement and air traffic controllers from 8:46 a.m. did not communicate to the Secretary of Defense also at the Pentagon about the other hijacked planes especially the one headed to Washington? How is that Secretary of Defense could have remained at this desk until the crash? Whose responsibility is it to relay emergency situations to him? Is he then supposed to go to the war room?

President
At 6:15 a.m. on the morning of 9/11, my husband Alan left for work; he drove into New York City, and was at his desk and working at his NASDAQ Security Trading position with Cantor Fitzgerald, in Tower One of the WTC by 7:30 a.m.

In contrast, on the morning of September 11, President Bush was scheduled to listen to elementary school children read.

Before the President walked into the classroom NORAD had sufficient information that the plane that hit the WTC was hijacked. At that time, they also had knowledge that two other commercial airliners, in the air, were also hijacked. It would seem that a national emergency was in progress.

Yet President Bush was allowed to enter a classroom full of young children and listen to the students read.

Why didn't the Secret Service inform him of this national emergency? When is a President supposed to be notified of everything the agencies know? Why was the President permitted by the Secret Service to remain in the Sarasota elementary school? Was this Secret Service protocol?

In the case of a national emergency, seconds of indecision could cost thousands of lives; and it's precisely for this reason that our government has a whole network of adjuncts and advisors to insure that these top officials are among the first to be informed--not the last. Where were these individuals who did not properly inform these top officials? Where was the breakdown in communication?

Was it luck or No Fault Government
Is it luck that aberrant stock trades were not monitored? Is it luck when 15 visas are awarded based on incomplete forms? Is it luck when Airline Security screenings allow hijackers to board planes with box cutters and pepper spray? Is it luck when Emergency FAA and NORAD protocols are not followed? Is it luck when a national emergency is not reported to top government officials on a timely basis?

To me luck is something that happens once. When you have this repeated pattern of broken protocols, broken laws, broken communication, one cannot still call it luck.

If at some point we don't look to hold the individuals accountable for not doing their jobs properly then how can we ever expect for terrorists not to get lucky again?

And, that is why I am here with all of you today. Because, we must find the answers as to what happened that day so as to ensure that another September 11th can never happen again.

Commissioners, I implore you to answer our questions. You are the Generals in the terrorism fight on our shores. In answering our questions, you have the ability to make this nation a safer place and in turn, minimize the damage if there is another terrorist attack. And, if there is another attack, the next time, our systems will be in place and working and luck will not be an issue.

Mindy Kleinberg is a founding member of September 11th Advocates, a family advocacy group that spearheaded the grassroots effort for the establishment of the independent commission on September 11th.

Her husband Alan Kleinberg was a NASDAQ security trader with Cantor Fitzgerald in the NorthTower of the WTC on the 104th Floor. He was 39 and had been a NASDAQ security trader for 15 years.
Unquote:

Originally posted by sassyncute
reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross

 

The "truthers" will only be happy when people stop poking holes in their made up stories.

Now they just say Bin Laden was a CIA operative. Before they used the defense he is not even involved because the FBI don't want him for the attacks. No sense. Just funny people!!

Typical conversation with truthers:

Me: Are you annoyed when people dispute the truthers stories?
Truther: Yes, I can not stand it when people do not agree with us.

Me: Really Does that strike you as wrong?
Truther: No, i am ignorant to anything that belittles the Truth movement.

Me: Would it be hard to admit you are in the worng concerning 9/11?
Truther: Damn right skippy, I refuse to retreat one step, just one step.

Me: Are you easily angered by those who argue with you on 9/11 topics
Truther: Most definitely, I hate all forms of opposition no matter how much REAL fact they bombard me with. Our gruop will assimilate you.


Truthers are burdened with these 4 major symptoms:

1) Concern that people have hidden motives in everything they do

2) Expectation that they will be exploited by others

3) Detachment

4) Hostility

I have to admit that I agree with the OP on this matter. Devil worshiping aside, she has quite possibly spotted the fact that could be so damaging to the truthers movement.

Please read the statement by Mindy Kleinberg, link above, who is the wife of one of the victims and one of the 'truthers' you treat with such contempt.

To understand possible motive, please read:

9/11 Staged to Derail ONI Investigation of Nazi Plunder
www.citizensforgovernmentaccountability.org...

Then, bear in mind that as well as the incredible 'luck' of the terrorists, the incredible 'coincidence' that the exact offices of those involved in the investigation were hit, and how 'lucky' the government criminals were that all the evidence and all the witnesses of their massive crimes were completely lost that day.

There sure was a lot of 'luck' around that day for some people.

Originally posted by chupa-chups

Originally posted by Faiol
lets say you plan a fake attack, and you want to make the world believe it was someone else ... you need to plant the seed, so you can use that as evidence later

and thats my perspective on it ...

each one reading this can have their own take on it, and really, it doesnt matter

in the 911 discussion board, there are no winners, everyone is a loser, since, while everyone is here wasting their time discussing, the people that did it are getting away

everyone should be asking them questions, demanding more evidences, more videos

come on, until this day, nobody saw the freaking plane hit the pentagon, isnt that crazy? why wouldnt they release that?

Agreed !! Was it something like 85 security cameras that covered that side of the Pentagon.........why can't they show us.....definitely hiding something.

Oh, you know, they were probably out of service for maintenance that day....such a coincidence!

reply to post by L1U2C3I4F5E6R

I have been debating back and forth with truthers on my other thread stating that I don't think the US gov murdered 3000 people.

Are you suggesting that the government wouldn't willfully murder 3000 people? They seemed to have no problem with "willfully" sending our troops off to die by the thousands (many, many more are disfigured) in Iraq for business interests. They deliberately lied to the world and the American people to send these kids off to war. Now, before you say that Saddam was a maniac that needed to be dealt with, there were many maniacs in the world that needed to be dealt with, yet we didn't deal with them and the world hasn't come crashing down because of it. Furthermore, the people of Iraq fared much worse because of our invasion. I believe that a low estimate of Iraqi deaths is around 100,000.

Another thing is that the government had no problems with lying to the American people that the air in Manhattan was safe, causing many more deaths, dying that will continue far into the future. You can't say that the government didn't know or even that they didn't know the consequences of the contamination, as the Bush admin ordered the EPA to make false statements about the safety of the air quality, even against the advice of many scientists that insisted that homes and buildings needed to be thoroughly and professionally cleaned before being occupied.

That finding is included in a report released Friday by the Office of the Inspector General of the EPA. It noted that some of the agency's news releases in the weeks after the attack were softened before being released to the public: Reassuring information was added, while cautionary information was deleted.

"When the EPA made a September 18 announcement that the air was 'safe' to breathe, it did not have sufficient data and analyses to make such a blanket statement," the report says. "Furthermore, the White House Council on Environmental Quality influenced . . . the information that EPA communicated to the public through its early press releases when it convinced EPA to add reassuring statements and delete cautionary ones."

On the morning of Sept. 12, according to the report, the office of then-EPA Administrator Christie Whitman issued a memo: "All statements to the media should be cleared through the NSC (National Security Council in the White House) before they are released." The 165-page report compares excerpts from EPA draft statements to the final versions, including these:

The draft statement contained a warning from EPA scientists that homes and businesses near ground zero should be cleaned by professionals. Instead, the public was told to follow instructions from New York City officials.

Another draft statement was deleted; it raised concerns about "sensitive populations" such as asthma patients, the elderly and people with underlying respiratory diseases.

Source: www.commondreams.org...

The government "willfully" sent many of these people to their deaths and most likely for the simple reason of money and business. If you can "willfully" send thousands of young soldiers to their deaths for profit and "willfully" send families, tourists and New York citizens to their toxic deaths for business, then you could most certainly kill a few thousand people to pass your political agenda to benefit corporate and special interests. They had much more to gain from killing people on 9/11 than from killing people in Iraq or from the air quality of New York. In fact, Iraq was one of those "benefits".

So, if other countries "intel agencies" had prior knowledge of these attacks on the US by Terrorists would it be fair to gauge that the then said attacks were indeed carried out by the terrorist other countries "intel" had discovered.

This means nothing. First of all, US and/or Israeli intelligence agencies could have "planted" the intelligence that lead to these warnings, in an effort to make the scenario more plausible. Furthermore, these countries may have picked up on the plot by factions within the government and they may have not made the connection to those factions within the government. We simply don't know how or when that intelligence was gathered.

Furthermore, if the government was complacent, meaning they purposefully "let it happen" and actively impeded defenses, then it would be expected that some other countries would have gathered intelligence and it wouldn't lessen the guilt of those suspected within government on bit. These factions within government could have also used patsies and planned the whole thing.

The point here, is that just because other governments picked up intelligence on possible attacks, doesn't mean that the factions within our own government are any less guilty or had nothing to do with it. You seem to be missing a lot of variables here. Your argument is extremely faulty, as it implies that most truthers are suggesting that government employees conspired together, then carried out the whole attack all on their own and by themselves. Truth is, it is common knowledge that Mossad has their hands in almost every Islamic extremist group so factions within the Israeli government and factions within the US government could have planned or helped in planning it, then had their assets carry it out, while using their positions of influence inside government to make sure it happened according to plan.

We don't know at what level of involvement that government players could have been involved, though it's safe to say that any level of involvement is guilt of treason and murder. The fact that we don't know, sure does seem like grounds to me for a real and transparent investigation. If you have done nothing wrong, then there should be nothing to hide, yet the Bush admin and the Obama admin sure are hiding a lot, as is evident by the actions of both.

Personally, I don't think that the government itself was complacent in the attacks, so much as I believe that elements within the government were complacent and probably are guilty of those attacks happening. With that being said, I do think that th government itself is complacent and guilty of the subsequent cover-up. It is painfully obvious that there is a cover-up happening and even official conspiracy theorists should agree with that. Why else would the MSM refuse to air any kind of damning evidence or even question the 9/11 report in any intelligent capacity. It has been taboo to even suggest anything against the OS. Why else would the Bush admin strongly oppose any type of investigative panel on the attacks, especially when he championed an investigative panel on Bill Clinton for his affair. Furthermore, the investigating panel was compromised by industry and political insiders with huge conflicts of interest, not to mention a Bush admin official and personal friend and business partner to Condi Rice. Then, to top it off, the panel was greatly underfunded and given a quick deadline to complete its investigation. The investigative panel looking into the adulterous affairs of Bill Clinton had a lot bigger budget than the panel looking into the worst terrorist attack on US soil. As if that's not enough evidence that certain people have things to hide, Bush and Cheney first refused to even be interviewed by the panel, then only agreed if they could meet together, behind closed doors without any records and not under oath. There is no reason for that what-so-ever. Why not under oath or even separately, when the meeting could still be kept secret? They could have been playing "go-fish" for all we know. Clearly, there is something to hide... something so damning and huge, that they were willing to put in so much effort and take a political hit by demanding these very stringent conditions. What is it that they were trying to hide?

The end result, is that the so-called investigation hardly addressed anything and ignored anyone and anything of importance. Panel members quit in protest, claiming that the whole thing was a white-wash. What it did do, is make people think that there was an investigation, when there really wasn't. They addressed hardly any of the concerns of people who can still think on their own and people who simply want answers, the whole reason to have the panel in the first place.

The Obama admin seems to have something to hide as well, going out of his way to block any kind investigation or evidence to come as a result of that fateful day. He has government lawyers step in to argue against any litigation on behalf of victim's families and then rewards those efforts with appointments. The appointments that he does make, seem to be people who have a particular issue with anyone who demands answers and that's not even the half of it.

So, if the government is willing to kill it's own citizens for the benefit of the few and they have something to hide, then it isn't a stretch to suggest that they couldn't have easily killed 3,000 people on that day for a bounty that wouldn't have come otherwise. They are guilty of something, otherwise there wouldn't be anything to hide and because we don't know the level of guilt, there should be a real investigation. That certainly is grounds for a real investigation.


--airspoon

Originally posted by joechip
reply to post by sassyncute

 

If Osama bin Laden was a "CIA operative" does your logic still hold? Not that I know either way, of course, but there have been reports asserting as much as early as a month after the attack:

The conspiracy people's claims still wouldn't make any sense. They keep insisting that Bin Laden's tapes showing his admission of guilt are faked/staged/forgeries/whatever, but if Bin Laden was a CIA operative they wouldn't need to forge any admission tapes. He's supposedly a CIA employee- simply pay him to create real admission tapes.

The only real and true fact is that the conspiracy people are just making up stuff as they go along, and they really don't notice or even care if they contradict themselves. Riddle me this- what manner of dumb-as-a-brick moron in the gov'ts false flag planning committee is going to sneak out and fake a aircraft crash site and plant manufactured aircraft wreckage out in an empty field in Pennsylvania when an actual plane can be crashed there to create a crash site for real?

reply to post by GoodOlDave


But Dave, you are making a critical error: not all "conspiracy people" believe the same thing. Most of us believe that Saudi terrorists actually flew the planes into the building. There are nutjobs that believe the drivel Judy Woods spouts, but they seem to be few in number. Most "conspiracy people" I have talked to know that we are not being told everything about that day, especially from the intelligence agencies. And since they are withholding information, how can we trust what they say?

reply to post by L1U2C3I4F5E6R


Okay, I see your logic. But reject your conclusion.

Why?

If it happens once, bad luck. If it happens twice, really bad luck.

If it happens ELEVEN times, then that is a systemic failure that requires orders from the very top to ignore, disregard and bury intel.

well... your assessment puts us all back at the very plausable reality: 'Let It Happen'

in my version the CIA and the toothless Anti-Terrorist Force were allowing cells & individuals
that were/should-have-been deemed 'Persons-of-Interest'... these Intel agencies allowed the
Arab men to travel freely & unhindered all over the USA---
for the purpose of following their contacts & connections and to then create a presumed network
of cells & how & with whom they interacted.

there's proof of sorts... in that several of the 911 attackers were tailed while in Calif.(San Diego i think)
and other persons-of-interest attending the fuzzy flight school connection out there in AZ
(no that instance wasn't the Scottsdale Airport it was over at the farming community just 10 miles west of Phoenix --?Avondale crop dusters?) all this was in the 1992-96 era even before the Florida flight schools
where more of the 911 attackers were involved in big jet-aircraft training. (yeah the same flight school where Anthrax was sent prior to 911)

What's missing is the acknowledgement that many Arab men (some future zealots) were taking flight training at military installations for many years prior to 911.... there was a program by the USA to privide pilots for less developed countries as a 'good neighbor' policy...you know -- the liberal, we gotta help out the unfortunates get up to date with western-civilized-society & have an educated class of pilots that will help the Arab states create a upward mobility society


looks like 'good intentions' backfired...looks like covert spying & tailing these 'recruits' backfired....
looks like the Administration, CIA, Anti-terrorism group...all engaged in a cover up to cover their own arses
and careers