You don't mutilate your daughters - why do you mutilate your sons ? (Discussion concerning human se

Well, we all had a nice "hello" & the girls have gone off to buy some new lingerie(apparently the actress gets a discount) & get to know each other. That leaves me time to chill online.
Just as well I didn't hold my breath, eh?
As to what your, my & everyone elses mental health has to do with circumcision, dont worry, I'll wrap it up neatly eventually. I did say this'd take a few posts...
(Cont from above)
I'm sure you can imagine that, since I'm still here 20+yrs on, that I've become quite good at spotting when treatment is no longer helpful. Thus, for the bulk of the time, I am either way above averagely engaged with life, or about normal. I'm also cursed with an IQ that's in the upper range where most researchers agree that its meaningless to quantify (this is the main basis of my communication problems). The upshot being that having fun & working to pay for it is not enough for me. If I dont use that extra energy to also voraciously acquire knowledge, it quite soon has me doing stuff that may be fun, but is ultimately self-destructive. Thus I have 3 Bachelors & 1 Masters degrees. For some time I've been contemplating studying for a Phd (which would include elements of psychology actually).
So, 2 things:
1) Dont assume that I need google to know exactly what I'm talking about in this area &
2) do you really imagine that a person with problems like mine could have a sex life like mine if he were merely skillful at it? Or would he have to be a bit of a legend in his own lunchtime?
Now, when I said that your attitude was classically counter-dependent etc, you went right into a fit claiming I could not possibly know that, or you & that you are perfectly normal. Well, normal is nuts! Still, what you are asking us to believe is that you are 1 of the 10-15% of us that isn't, who just happens to express himself in a way that chimes exactly with people who do have those issues. Behave yourself will you? That in itself is classic "special & different" thinking!
(Cont below)

(Getting there )
Having established then that, Gorman91, in all likelyhood, you do indeed have some unaddressed issues, it should come as no surprise if there were more. I refer you to your claim that you can imagine a sensation which you've never had & when you have it, its pretty much the same. You sir are either a liar or a fantasist (either of which would be a defence mechanism just like special & different thinking is). My brother-in-law got the end of a finger crushed by machinery. He told me that on the way to hospital, there was something like an itch, but not quite, coming through the throb. He thought that maybe it was a piece of metal, so started scratching at the wound, which suddenly felt really wierd. Turns out that what he was scratching at was splinters of bone. Imagine that? You cant. Anyone who's had a decent injury might get close, but unless you've ever scratched your own bone, you'll never know what it feels like.
Also, we are not machines. The sensory input is not constant. It changes from day to day, even hour to hour. The variables are just too great for what you claim to be true.

Certainly, you can imagine what something similar to a feeling you've had before might be like & the more similar the thing, say the difference between Veuve Cliquot & Moet et Chandon, the more accurate your guess will be, but you can no more accurately imagine what being stabbed in the heart feels like than an axe in the head. Nor, since you do not have 1, can you imagine what a foreskin feels like, because the inside of it feels totally different to the rest of the penile skin or glans.
Back to the relevance of my experience of penises then:
I've seen or felt hundreds of them in action & used my own thousands of times. I know who is a proper rockstar in bed & who is just pretty good or merely very horny (they dont get a 2nd go if they're outside these parameters). I assure you that, particularly as they get older, cut men are rarely more than the latter. Dont believe me?
(Check below)

If I weren't circumcised when I was a baby, I would definitely have had it done later in life. I don't care about all the hype of one side or the other, my penis is just happier that way. I'm just thankful that I had it done as an infant so I don't have to shell out cash for surgery myself.

(Probably "& finally")
With everything thats been going on IRL, I've forgotten whether it was you, Gorman91, or 27jd, that I asked if you'd ever watched other men having sex (& frankly, I just cant be bothered to check). No matter: what you need to be looking for is "the frown". Not all men get it, but a significantly larger number of those that do are cut.
It stems from intense concentration as they chase that sensation that will lead to an orgasm. Conversely, some men cant help laughing their asses off during sex, for no other reason than the pure joy of it. I've never met a single cut man that does this.

reply to post by 27jd(Damn! I need more sleep. Forgot this also.)

And why you completely discount the many studies that do show benefit from the procedure and the doctors that do believe it is beneficial, but put 100% faith in those who are against it, is beyond me.

Its beyond me why anyone would begin a written sentence with "And", considering that even a basic education ought to have explained the uses of the various forms of punctuation in written english.
That aside however, if you or anyone else can present us with a credible medical study which claims that the foreskin is not an erogenous zone, I'll concede that the disputed health benefits of circumcision may outweigh what clearly is damage to the penis. Otherwise, I'll stick to my position that the best prevention for any STD/I is condoms &, furthermore, if anyone is inclined to a promiscuous lifestyle, regardless of condom use, they also ought to be getting tested regularly & being honest about it to potential partners.
Now I realise that some people are born with a virus that their mother was infected with. This seems quite prevalent amongst Americans who have herpes. Its quite possible, therefore, for someone to not know that they have it, since it generally only breaks out into sores when a person is very run-down. I believe this is how I caught it.
The woman in question said that the couple of marks she had (which would presumably have gone on to become sores if not treated) were the result of skin allergies & she had similar on her arms. She was travelling with some particularly expensive clothing impregnated with silver which, apparently, helped to control these allergies. I believed her & I'm pretty much still inclined to accept she didn't know. Of course, at the time, I had no idea how endemic herpes is in North America, otherwise I would never have applied my mouth to the affected region. Still, I didnt get it on my unprotected intact penis.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
. . . what you need to be looking for is "the frown". Not all men get it, but a significantly larger number of those that do are cut.
It stems from intense concentration as they chase that sensation that will lead to an orgasm. Conversely, some men cant help laughing their asses off during sex, for no other reason than the pure joy of it. I've never met a single cut man that does this.

I know what you mean about the laughter. While married, I had to shut my eyes and concentrate so as to not get carried away and start laughing, or moving too much, because my husband would get get really upset. It was a huge relief later to be able to let go with an uninhibited, uncut Dutchman.

Re using the imagination as Gorman has described, sure it's impossible if this world is purely the material world science describes. Now I'm no religion nut and I'm all for science, but there's something else going on here as well. Many people have had experiences science can't understand. All my life, if I've needed to know something, I've just daydreamed I was talking to someone I knew who would know the answer. And, in my daydream, they'd tell me. I used to imagine I was looking at a familiar clock to see what time it was. I've had good advice, (i.e. it worked) from unknown advisers in my dreams. I've had all sorts of other weird things happen, and so have many others.

So, if a sincere sounding man says he can imagine something and then when he experiences it it's the same, I judge it more likely he's dipping outside the physical constraints of this world than that he's lying or mistaken.

reply to post by Bunken Drum


Don't honestly care if you believe me or not. It's not my fault that you are not the same mind as me. I can. And you twisted it also. I did not say that I can anticipate a feeling I've never had before. I said once I have the derivative, I know what it will be like. That's quite different, you see.

So once again. Stop twisting, stop going off topic, and stop lying. It's really quite hilarious. You need to go out into the real world more and stop categorizing people.

The people who categorize people are the people on the window too afraid to go out into the world. They mark what they see and sort it in their insanity.

But I don't think you're insane. i just think your a kid who think she knows everything. lol. Dream on.

reply to post by Kailassa

I had to shut my eyes and concentrate so as to not get carried away and start laughing, or moving too much

Yeah, I know what you mean (glad you got sorted eventually! ). I already mentioned women moving: to elaborate, when it gets intense, women are going to jump about, but, unless she moves her pelvis further than the length of my average penis (which I mention, oh ye complainers-about-frankness, to further illustrate that I really haven't got much going for me other than ability & experience), which obviously does happen in the heat of the moment, my foreskin can feel, even through a thick condom, where my penis needs to go next.
Since we are being frank, I wonder if you'd answer a personal question? Did you also have to shut your eyes & concentrate like mad to get off, because otherwise your husband's MO just wouldn't do it?

reply to post by Kailassa

So, if a sincere sounding man says he can imagine something and then when he experiences it it's the same, I judge it more likely he's dipping outside the physical constraints of this world than that he's lying or mistaken.

I take your point about strange phenomena: I've had a few experiences with prophetic dream-states/OBE myself (which I've posted about in the Paranormal Forum), but what it comes down to, as you say, is sincerity. From the way Gorman91 had to be bullied into an unequivocal response to the central issue of personal choice & has consistently dismissed or avoided the issues of mutilation & the ongoing dispute between various doctors & scientists about whether, if there are any benefits to circumcision, they outweigh the damage, I judge that he is not sincere.
If I have a point to make, I make it & then respond to any counter arguments. If I cannot rebutt such refutation, I concede the point (a glance through my posting history in long, passionate, threads will confirm this). Its because I dont get into a passionate debate unless I know about the subject matter & want to learn more, ie I am sincerely attempting to deny ignorance. Why should I expect anything less of others?
Er... yeah. Experience has tought me otherwise, however, if I were to treat everyone as if they're going to disappoint, then I'd never get any decent interaction with those of integrity.
This is also a funky metaphor for circumcision. To whit: the removal of hope from our personal communication creates a viscous circle of poor expectation leading to poor outcomes, which reinforce the poor expectations, ad nauseam (quite literally sometimes). The removal of the foreskin creates poor outcomes, which generate poor expectations, leading to further poor outcomes, etc ad nauseam...

reply to post by Bunken Drum

Where possible, spoon shape, read book to keep myself awake seeing I was not allowed to move, look after the "details" later. He could get violent if upset.

I left as soon as my littlest could start school.
Do you know the memory of a partner once loved can give you life-long happiness?
Whenever I remember him I smile and enjoy my freedom from him.

I'd felt sorry for men sexually because they were never able to have anywhere near as much fun as I did, (before and after marriage, no fun was had during,) and I thought it was just that women were lucky. But then I met a guy who had not been circumcised, and it was fun to be able to give him the sort of pleasure-range I could give a girl. It's like playing a harp instead of a banjo.

I believe circumcision makes a guy more masculine in the tuff-gruff bash-'em-up kind of way, because of the loss of feeling and the effect of the shock on his infant psyche. Hmm, I wonder if that could be connected with the way men tend to faint at births? And back at school there were always a couple of guys who'd faint when it was time for injections.

And I wonder if the foreskin produces any hormones? It's possible no-one's ever checked to see if it does.
hmmm...

(Smegma) is thought to be rich in squalene and contain prostatic and seminal secretions, desquamated epithelial cells, and the mucin content of the urethral glands of Littré. Some state that it contains anti-bacterial enzymes such as lysozyme and hormones such as androsterone, others dispute this.

Androsterone is mildly masculinising and possibly a pheromone.

There's still an awful lot science doesn't know about body and mind.

reply to post by Bunken Drum

To be fair, Gorman did say the medical issues were not relevant to him because it was a religious thing.
And when it comes to arguing circumcision with Jews, I leave it to their fellow Jews who understand where they're coming from. There is a healthy group of Jews questioning the practice and providing an alternative.

And when it comes to psychotherapy, remember how painful that can be?
Definitely should be a matter of choice, because forcibly separating the psyche from the coverings of learned reactions and delusions and removing them can be most unpleasant.

I'm not surprised you've had odd experiences too. You seemed the type to be open to them.

reply to post by Gorman91

So once again. Stop twisting, stop going off topic, and stop lying. It's really quite hilarious. You need to go out into the real world more and stop categorizing people.

The door was ajar; the bucket of paint balanced atop; you walked right in
Why do you think I changed my avatar before you could reply? It was because I knew that, after I posted that you are either a liar or a fantasist (by which I mean a self-deceiver, so not telling deliberate lies) you could not help but react by accusing me of lying also. This is 1 of the only pix I have of my belle that isn't too pornographic for ATS & doesn't show her face. It was a quick snap (my finger covers part of the lens; I wanted her face in it, because she was sticking her tongue out at me whilst simultaneously making a provocative gesture with her hands; I was about to call her a cab, so I had my phone in hand, but it wasn't set to 'portrait'), but fortunately, in this context, if you look to the right of her elbow, you'll see the boots I mentioned earlier, in connection with numb skin from chafing, in their habitual place by the door to my hallway.
Just what do you claim I'm lying about?
(Actually this might take a few posts also: ho hum; the girls are watching porn on the 21" & I find most popular types of it a bit disturbing, although, to be perfectly frank, I'm also knackered so, if I were to get between them right now, I might well suffer from an embarrassing failure to rise to the occasion. They look happy enough so I'm cool to use ATS as distraction from the porn.)
I'm afraid I cant post pix of the actress, b/c, apart from her face, she has some ink that could not be covered by the clothes she has here (& I'm certainly not going to ask her to put a top of mine on just so I can refute you!).
Do you get it? I do undertand you at least well enough to accurately predict your behaviour b/c you are human.

reply to post by Kailassa

Whenever I remember him I smile and enjoy my freedom from him.

I'm not being patronising, so please take this as its meant: babe, I feel for you.
On occasion I've pushed a partner too far. I didnt mean to or even notice at the time, b/c I was too wrapped up in myself. Afterwards (& still), I felt/feel really guilty.
I think I can relate to what you're saying tho, b/c, even tho my own marriage ended amicably (basically she was sick & tired of my overexuberance & how demanding that makes me & I was frustrated by what I perceived as her 'failing' get-up-&-go), we're both happy to be out from under the pain we were causing each other, towards the end, as a result of our differing expectations. I'm just glad we held it together long enough for our kids to understand when we did split & that we're still friends (even tho she's a proper pain in the arse I still love her.).
Re: harp vs banjo - Totally! I'm a natural dom but that doesn't mean I enjoy giving any less than receiving. It really is about the subtleties of unspoken communication rather than just the orgasm/s, eh?
I'm not a sportsman, so the only time I can tell if a man is cut or not is in a sexual setting. Generally, if they were a dickhead, they wouldn't be there, so I really cant comment on the incidence of dickheadery amongst cut vs uncut.
Haven't much experience of smegma either & its not something I'm prepared to encourage for the sake of an experiment! However, androstenone is powerful stuff! I know several men that wear it with body spray. Once, a bloke left a tiny vial in my en-suite so I did try an experiment. Not wearing it but spraying a little around the staircase that led to my room in a shared house. Yeah, the girls (only 1 of whom I previously knew @all) began visiting me in my room more often. Not sure that allowing smeg to occur would have the same effect tho!

reply to post by Bunken Drum


K maybe you are not listening. You are derailing the thread. And in terms of lying, read the last post. I did not notice your banner change. I just click the name on what pops up in replies and reply. It's as simple as that.

Again you assume, and again you label me. Do tell, why do you bother if you keep changing the label and go on a mile long tangent? I've skipped your tangents thus far. You start speaking about some girl, skip. Skip all the way down to where you attempt to reply. Then read. Please don't pump unneeded fat in your replies. You're becoming a troll. You're very close to getting reported for that. Take a look at the topic. Take a look at the the topic of your tangent. perhaps you don't realize it, but you are like talking to a person with dementia. Get on topic, or you're getting reported for spam.

reply to post by KailassaI grasp the whole Judaism thing. I am 1/4 ethnically Jewish. My paternal grandmother was &, descended from her brother, I have a branch of extended family who are practicing Jews. Nonetheless, I dont accept the prevailing attitude towards freedom of religious practice. Why should it be held to any less rigorous ethical standards than any other human behaviour? If something is wrong, its wrong: end of story. Just because its not as wrong as something else changes nothing (which, I believe, was the OPs point in comparing circumcision to FGM).
I also take your point about psychotherapy: it is difficult &, I suspect, if I had known just how bad it would be, then, the 1st time, I would've chickened out for longer than I did. However, there was a pressing reason to go ahead &, despite the pain & realising that it would only get more difficult, as my therapists & I peeled back the layers of my self-deception, defence mechanisms & habitual coping strategies, I took comfort in the fact that doing it diminished the unconscious harm I'd do to those around me & improve my quality of life. Still, as you say, it has & continues to be a proper bastard.
Lets be fair to me though re: "forcibly" - I haven't dug deep into anything anyone has said: I've merely identified some issues. They are free (& probably inclined) to ignore me. However, if, @some point, they find themselves in a real mess, I hope that what I've said may induce them to seek the help which is available, regardless of the stigma. Hey, if Tony Soprano can do it...
Btw, I'm adding you as a friend b/c of your last comment.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
If something is wrong, its wrong: end of story.

In my opinion also, circumcision is wrong. But I'm a pragmatist.

When I discovered my 14 year old daughter was smoking, (many years ago now,) I pretended to not know, never said a word. When she was 16 and told me, I just said thanks for the info, and when she went outside for a smoke, (no smoking in my house,) I'd often go out with her to chat.

I knew my daughter, and knew how bloody stubborn she was. I was certain that, underneath, she did not want to be a smoker, stinking of tobacco, coughing in the morning, getting out of breath and wasting all that money. And I knew upbringing counts for a lot. So if she could use her stubbornness to fight off her habit, she eventually would. However if I started lecturing her, her stubbornness would be directed outward at me, and she'd go into "protecting the habit" mode instead.

It took a long time, addictions can grip some people awfully hard, but she decided to struggle against it and succeeded about 10 years back.

Now Jews are part of a changing world, much more part of it than the cultures practicing FGM. This changing world has become more sensitive to issues affecting babies, as evidenced by the number of studies done on them. Of course sometimes the old way of "stick it a drawer to sleep and let its siblings look after it while mum's flat out doing whatever mum has to do," worked well, but life's different now. Doctors took over, life became "scientific", mothers were brainwashed into circumcisions, bulk vaccinations, formula feeding and creches, and told newborn babies can't feel pain. As mothers were more distanced from their own offspring they depended more on what the medical profession told them, and less on their own instincts.

Now we have science telling us that not all we were recently told was correct, and, with parents having smaller families, they are getting closer to their babies and wanting to protect them. - Jewish mums too .
These mothers, who already have some Rabbis on there side, will be the leaven in the loaf if left alone. However they can get very stubborn and defensive if they believe their religion is being challenged, so attempts at change from outside will slow the process, and hamper their efforts by making it seem they are fighting with the goyim against their own faith.

I also take your point about psychotherapy: it is difficult &, I suspect, if I had known just how bad it would be, then, the 1st time, I would've chickened out for longer than I did.

I've tried six different therapists, and could tell you some funny stories.
- One used earplugs and meditated instead of listening,
- one explained why my childrens' genetic disorders were all due to my being a single mother and insisted I go to single's bars to catch a man, and she explained boys grow up impotent if expected to do women's jobs like tidying their own rooms,
- one used to bawl her eyes out if I told her about things that had happened to me and I'd have to comfort her,
- one wanted me to keep coming because he was getting advice from me about how to manage his own sons,
- one wanted to see the youngest boy too, separately, and I caught him with his hand inside my son's pants,
- and one who has been really helpful, who is deregistered for stealing babies under the pretext of adopting them out privately, faking their birth certificates, and handing them to a local CIA funded sect which used drugs and torture on them and engaged in child trafficking. - and for illegal experiments into months-long deep sleep therapy experiments. But I guess we're none of us perfect.

They are free (& probably inclined) to ignore me.

You could be a very hard guy to ignore.

However, if, @some point, they find themselves in a real mess, I hope that what I've said may induce them to seek the help which is available, regardless of the stigma. Hey, if Tony Soprano can do it...

Trouble is, the "help" available seems to be crazier than their patients.

Btw, I'm adding you as a friend b/c of your last comment.

Likewise, thank you.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
reply to post by Kailassa

 

So, if a sincere sounding man says he can imagine something and then when he experiences it it's the same, I judge it more likely he's dipping outside the physical constraints of this world than that he's lying or mistaken.

I take your point about strange phenomena: I've had a few experiences with prophetic dream-states/OBE myself (which I've posted about in the Paranormal Forum), but what it comes down to, as you say, is sincerity. From the way Gorman91 had to be bullied into an unequivocal response to the central issue of personal choice & has consistently dismissed or avoided the issues of mutilation & the ongoing dispute between various doctors & scientists about whether, if there are any benefits to circumcision, they outweigh the damage, I judge that he is not sincere.
If I have a point to make, I make it & then respond to any counter arguments. If I cannot rebutt such refutation, I concede the point (a glance through my posting history in long, passionate, threads will confirm this). Its because I dont get into a passionate debate unless I know about the subject matter & want to learn more, ie I am sincerely attempting to deny ignorance. Why should I expect anything less of others?
Er... yeah. Experience has tought me otherwise, however, if I were to treat everyone as if they're going to disappoint, then I'd never get any decent interaction with those of integrity.
This is also a funky metaphor for circumcision. To whit: the removal of hope from our personal communication creates a viscous circle of poor expectation leading to poor outcomes, which reinforce the poor expectations, ad nauseam (quite literally sometimes). The removal of the foreskin creates poor outcomes, which generate poor expectations, leading to further poor outcomes, etc ad nauseam...

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm cut, and EXTREMELY sensitive (to the point that I sometimes must wear a condom to decrease sensitivity). Even then, I have been guilty of 'three minutes of magic' due to the overwhelming pleasure I feel during sex. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't...

reply to post by cleveract


Okay then when you have a son, you should be present when they do it.

reply to post by J.Smit


Again for the millionth time........nobody should be cutting anything off a newborn baby unless it is a medical necessity period.

No I don't agree to female mutilation.

But men/baby boys should be allowed the same rite.

Yes you are more than correct, female mutilation is worse but nobody should be inflicting unnecessary pain on a baby.

reply to post by SirTFiedSkeptic


They like me did what they thought was right.

But, times change and people grow wiser (hopefully).

When you have a son, let him chose.