Economic Manipulation and how it leads to Religious Extremism

Proto, I can appreciate that you have spent a lot of time and effort in putting this composition together. I suppose you are defining religion as one of the control mechanisms of Rome. And it is. But it is only one aspect.

I find a lot of metaphor and clues in scripture.

Rev. 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

First of all, this reminds me of the fairy tale about the little girl who was mean and told lies. One day she opened her mouth to say something nasty and found that she could not speak, instead, frogs fell out of her mouth.

We have three entities represented here with indication that they are nasty liars. The dragon, the beast, and the false prophet are the symbols for the world system. The whole world spins on this trinity: commerce, government, and religion.

They are all intrinsically woven together, each supporting and defining the other. All three must be defeated and it must be done all at once.

Armageddon is only mentioned once in the entire bible. It is just 3 verses down from the one I quoted. Rev.16:16 says that the kings (rulers of the triad system) are gathered at the place called Armageddon.

Scriptures also reveal that the world will be full of the knowledgeable of the lies and this is what brings on Armageddon.

Rev. 16:15 "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

It is the liars and deceivers who are now naked, having been exposed to the public for what they are. They have been hung out to dry. The truth is there for all to see. The problem is that not everyone is exposed to it, but the hundredth monkey has been kicking in, and its all about to crumble and shatter.

Armageddon has been on-going for quite some time, but some people are still looking for it as being a "future" event. It is almost at it's final throes. That's what I think the 2012 time line deception is all about...to keep people looking ahead instead of seeing what's right in their faces.

reply to post by Alethea

It is the liars and deceivers who are now naked, having been exposed to the public for what they are. They have been hung out to dry. The truth is there for all to see. The problem is that not everyone is exposed to it, but the hundredth monkey has been kicking in, and its all about to crumble and shatter.

Armageddon has been on-going for quite some time, but some people are still looking for it as being a "future" event. It is almost at it's final throes. That's what I think the 2012 time line deception is all about...to keep people looking ahead instead of seeing what's right in their faces.

There is so much involved that is not just taken on faith but requires the imagination to fill in some of the gaps and blanks.

After all the prophecies are anything but, as they are vague and often interchangeable with various circumstances and events.

One thing is certain and that is most fears are based on imagination, so the more the media, religion and the government can play on our fears, the more fears we imagine, and not only does that lead to rash and desperate measures at times, but creating a self fulfilling prophecy based on one's fear.

You are right in that I do believe it's a huge part of Rome's plan to create the events that would make it possible, even preferable to instill and install a one world government.

It's why I think its a good idea for people to exercise caution and be open to the possibility that they may be, in fact being manipulated to that end.

Great post Alethea thanks for sharing.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Thank you for pointing me out to this thread. It's well-written and I share many of the views within it.

It's true that when people feel threatened, they will pull the hatred card from the bag of tricks supplied to them by their religious and political leaders.

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Thank you for pointing me out to this thread. It's well-written and I share many of the views within it.

It's true that when people feel threatened, they will pull the hatred card from the bag of tricks supplied to them by their religious and political leaders.

Thanks so much for responding, I think it's something we should all be pondering and at least considering before potentially over reacting to events.

The interesting thing is while it often manifests itself in hate or fear, it is as much an appeal to the ego, by instilling a belief that yours is the supperior and moral position, whether it is or isn't.

It can become a persmission slip to abuse.

Thanks for sharing my friend.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Without reading most of this thread (due to time restraints), here's my view on religion.

It's very simple, humans are very existential creatures. They require something to believe in. The fact is that humans exist in three states of existence: physical, mental, and spiritual. However in the modern world, people who choose to live by their heart are usually considered mentally unstable or terrorist. Question is, would you rather live by your heart or by some system that you were born into which clearly has little interest in the lives of other people?

Mainstream religion and economy go hand in hand; it is no big secret that the Vatican is the largest and oldest corporation in the world. Same goes for Islam, it is not hard to see that the most prominent Islamic leaders are rich sheiks or warlords.

But the modern world itself is going to sh*t. This 2012 stuff seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, and most uneducated people, without a tangible understanding of what is good or bad anymore, are turning towards mainstream religion to give them answers. Religion itself is a social cause, and if you are religious then at least there's more of you out there. In some ways, it is a social survival technique.

But like I said: it comes down to mind, body and soul. And of course all three of these are influenced by your decision to be on a right handed or left handed path... in other words, a follower (ignorance is bliss) or a leader (one who is able think on their own). I used to be ignorant, and I used to go to church when I was a kid... Then I grew up and realized that the good old Christian virtue lifestyle is BS like every other thing that my government promotes.

But to sum it up, when things get out of control like once vast economies, obviously people will turn towards something they know little of in hopes that it will save them. Unfortunately organized religion ALWAYS has an agenda. Americans cry about religious extremism developing in their country, yet they speak little of their crumbling infrastructure, falling bridges, gravel roads, cut off streetlights, high poverty rate, etc. I bet if you did a study, you would find that most religious people are probably either really poor or uneducated, or incredibly rich, and probably not by coincidence.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I might suggest that I was leaning towards that end in regards to Islam here on ATS. The ammount of shear propaganda and opinion has completely overshadowed the intelligent and common sense approach to fixing our issues as a society. As well as any actual facts surrounding the religion.

I almost want to compare it to the way Native Americans were treated by Christians during the colonization of the West. Be like us or we will kill you. Obviously it's not a perfect analogy, but it sums up my opinion of how they are being treated. Along with dozens of other religious sectors.

Especially something that is such a non issue it should not even grace the last page of the daily newspapers and online blogs.

Another proble, which I might be writing a thread about soon, is how regardless of the issue, time or place, it is always portrayed by extremists. Even things unrelated to religion, such as economics or moral values etc.

The people who represent us in these vital discussions are not "moderates" as most people are, they are either extreme left, or extreme right and DO NOT represent even a small margin of the general population.

People need to understand this, formulate their own opinons and start demanding proper representation.

This thread has certainly brought me back down to earth so to speak and allows me to analyze my rhetoric over the past couple of months.

Thanks Proto, and everybody else for the wonderful replies.

~Keeper

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

But the modern world itself is going to sh*t. This 2012 stuff seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, and most uneducated people, without a tangible understanding of what is good or bad anymore, are turning towards mainstream religion to give them answers. Religion itself is a social cause, and if you are religious then at least there's more of you out there. In some ways, it is a social survival technique.

But like I said: it comes down to mind, body and soul. And of course all three of these are influenced by your decision to be on a right handed or left handed path... in other words, a follower (ignorance is bliss) or a leader (one who is able think on their own). I used to be ignorant, and I used to go to church when I was a kid... Then I grew up and realized that the good old Christian virtue lifestyle is BS like every other thing that my government promotes.

Thanks for responding and sharing.

I too feel a lot of people are working towards creating self fulfilling prophecies, often for no other reason than to validate their belief in prophecy. Prophecy then becomes a dangerous manipulation, and I think if people in general were more aware of the history of religion as it pertained to the ancient pre-Christian world, prophecy was often a driving force in justifying means to an end to create what are always in essence self fulfilling prophecies.

Apollo and his muses played a key role along with artists in promoting the concept of prophecy, which in many ways is just a rather mystical way of saying, I have a plan, and getting people to accept that plan is a divine act and not simply the ambition of a man.

Artists today do play a big role in not just manipulating the masses through artistic musings but helping them imagine the possibilities and to prepare people for them.

While most people do prefer to be followers, those who do prefer being leaders do see much more clearly, because leading requires motivating and manipulating people to an end, just how easy some are to not just motivate but manipulate.

The best defense against that manipulation is marching to the beat of your own drum.

Thanks for sharing your perspective and thoughts, it is much appreciated.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

I almost want to compare it to the way Native Americans were treated by Christians during the colonization of the West. Be like us or we will kill you. Obviously it's not a perfect analogy, but it sums up my opinion of how they are being treated. Along with dozens of other religious sectors.

Not having lived back then, it becomes harder to gauge what the general attitudes amongst the population were. In other words did the average person believe there was a chance to convert the Indians to Christianity or did they believe it was hopeless, and genocide preferrable? It can be hard to trust the history books that are written by the victors sometimes when it comes to what the real attitudes of the people were.

The most disturbing things in today's trend, is the typical Christian and Jew does not believe that someone who is Islamic is likely to convert, so ultimately their thoughts do tend to lead to attrition and genocide.

Which there really is a lot of manufactured belief by some vested special interests in this regard, that manifests itself as a steady stream of propoganda that practitioneers of Islam likewise not only want to eliminate Christians and Jews violently but that it's a key component and central to what the religion is all about.

Nothing could be further than the truth but many people do believe it because of all the fear based propaganda and distortions placed out there.

Another proble, which I might be writing a thread about soon, is how regardless of the issue, time or place, it is always portrayed by extremists. Even things unrelated to religion, such as economics or moral values etc.

The Internet is a cheap way to reach masses of people, and I think one of the preferred tactics of agenda driven groups is to try to make it appear through coordinate efforts, and posting in mass, that extreme views are the majority views and then to attempt to use their numbers to effectively use peer pressure on moderates, and liberal minded people.

We know it is taking place because such groups have made the news and do maintain an online recruiting presences.

While the internet's annonymity makes it hard to prove, I think most who spend any time online on blogs or discussion boards accept it is happening on some level.

Once again it is a drive to create self fulfilling prophecy which while many imagine it is divine in it's origins it really isn't.

The people who represent us in these vital discussions are not "moderates" as most people are, they are either extreme left, or extreme right and DO NOT represent even a small margin of the general population.

Which they do often to conspire to overcome by being overly vocal and developing deflecting and derailing tactics aimed at steering the conversation always towards their key talking points and casting aspiritions while heaping derrision on those they don't agree with.

While it doesn't work on everyone, longers, and dissafected personalities become easy prey sometimes when they find themselves all of a sudden welcome into a group, and made to feel both welcome and relevant.

A lot of times they will hide their religious agenda by claiming to be athiests, or simply alarmed by the behavior of those in the targeted religion. Sometimes by wrapping themselves in the Constitution, anything that might better mask that often the solutions and remedies they are propossing or not conducive to any religions gospels or teachings.

People need to understand this, formulate their own opinons and start demanding proper representation.

This thread has certainly brought me back down to earth so to speak and allows me to analyze my rhetoric over the past couple of months.

I have been alarmed and concerned ATS hasn't been a place where the deeper issues are being discussed as they normally might be. I think it's in part to a coordinated invasion of discussion boards by agenda driven groups, and people, but I also think it's because the drama of it all sucks many people in to what then often become sound but ego driven arguments where it ends up being all about you/me instead of the bigger and deeper issues and the real ramifications of these trends and where they are heading.

Our on demand lifestyle, much of it driven I think has led some to foolishly believe these things can be turned on and off with a button, but once things snowball out of controll, well they are out of controll.

So I think it's important we start focusing more on discussing the deeper aspects in an honest open minded way.

Thanks for joining in to do that.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

While most people do prefer to be followers, those who do prefer being leaders do see much more clearly, because leading requires motivating and manipulating people to an end, just how easy some are to not just motivate but manipulate.

The best defense against that manipulation is marching to the beat of your own drum.

Here's a good example; Jesus. He came around in a time of great existential crisis in humanity and while everyone else could not agree on anything to believe in, he simply decided not to believe in any of that crap. Because of his ability to stand tall and live a pure life, he became a leader by example. Unfortunately, the powers that were killed him off because he was a threat to their control of the masses. He was an advocate of freedom of the heart.

And look at what history has done to Jesus. The Christians have idolized him while completely misunderstanding everything about him, or God, or spiritualism in general. The bible itself is a testament of humanity 2000 years ago, created by the available materials and interpretive wisdom of the time. In our much more advanced world, there's still too many people out there who just don't understand the bible at all, yet are willing to let it lead their hearts. This is extremely dangerous, and from what I can see, all Christians are worshipping false idols... is this not hypocrisy?

There is no such thing as God; 2000 years ago, the big shiny hot thing in the sky was God. This is how people, 2000 years ago, interpreted the world around them. Modern Christians, without any logical thinking at all, read the bible as if it is a literal record of events instead of understanding the concept of what they're trying to say about their present and our future.

For instance, look at Noah and the flood. When was that, about 10,000 years ago? Ice ages occur about every 10,000 years on this planet according to science, and there are many signs now that it will probably happen again. Maybe if Christians wanted to do something constructive, they should learn from their own book and build an ark... or maybe they will just drown from their own ignorance, just like all those who disappeared in the infinite seas under Noah's ark.

They say purgatory is when "God" is going to kill off all of the sinful people. My interpretation is that if you have such a clouded judgement and can't see what is right in front of you, then you will die off when the world hits the fan in the near future. Am I going to let some religious extremists try to "save" me? Yeah right.

Thank Christ that modern humanity does indeed have its own testament; it's called music. It is the greatest achievement of the human culture. That's probably the only worthwhile thing that has advanced after the industrial revolution, in my opinion... and not long yet until we all feel the effects of the "industrial disease".

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
"And look at what history has done to Jesus. The Christians have idolized him while completely misunderstanding everything about him, or God, or spiritualism in general. The bible itself is a testament of humanity 2000 years ago, created by the available materials and interpretive wisdom of the time. In our much more advanced world, there's still too many people out there who just don't understand the bible at all, yet are willing to let it lead their hearts. This is extremely dangerous, and from what I can see, all Christians are worshipping false idols... is this not hypocrisy?"

I could partly agree with some of what you say .I might change the all to some ...No doubt when you study Christan faith from someone that doesn't believe there is a God, that there will be different agreements ...Not going into spiritualism because I am not so sure anyone has the answer to that .I will leave that defining to God .Oh and I believe that a false idol is just that false . peace

I wonder how Andre would respond to this one.
Go for it mate.
Steer it straight my friend.

You speak as one with a clear mind Proto.
Springwater and organics, or just a whole lot of 'concern'?
Makes a feller wonder.....

No one pays you for your 'work', no?
If so, I suppose it's ok if for done with good intent.
What do you think proto.....las prima de lineas es de no importantes.
Who here can correct the syntax norte de aqui?

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Your amazon book review article concerning the secret society 'how to' business made me think of just another threat on.....or rather in your horizon: I believe the msm missed this one as well. It seems so few are awAre of such 'things', no?

Seemed appropriate.....
Maybe not.

Ok.

So here's my contribution to the thread.

The Merva-Fowles study on the consequences of unemployement was conducted during two years (1990-1992) by the university of Utah. The total population included in the study was approxiamtely 80 million, in thirty different large cities, or metropolitan areas.

The study concluded that a 1 % rise in unemployement led to :

a 6,4 % rise in homicides (1459 additional homicides during the time frame of the study)
a 3,4 % rise in violent crime (62607 additional violent crimes during the time frame of the study)
a 2,4 rise in property crime (223500 additional property crimes during the time frame of the study)

If we understand that a rise of unemployement is actually synonymous of a rise in poverty, then one simple conclusion is that basically, poor(er) people tend to act in a more radical and violent way.

When humans (or any other species for that matter) are subjected to a hostile environement, they adapt to it by becoming more aggressive. This is a simple and biological reaction, linked to our own survival instinct. Our world is certainly complex, even to the degree that we may seem far removed (especially in the western world) from survivalist situations, because we are constantly surrounded by an abundance of ressources. This however, is an illusion. Ask any tramp.

Anyhow, I think that what I'm getting at is that economic hardship (= reduced access to ressources) generates an excess of stress, which in turn generates a equal amount of aggressivity in the people affected. This has repercussions on all aspects of the human "being" ( i.e. it's not just physical aggressivity) and can also lead to a radicalisation of our mental patterns. Let us not forget that the last "great depression" (and the exraordinary economic pressure put on the german state post-WWI by the rest of europe) paved the way for the Nazi party. Nazi ideology stigmatized jews as "the problem", a threat that was insidiously trying to gain control of Germany (and the world), and were bent on destroying "the german way of life".

This to me is fairly analogous of the many reactions of fear and hate that devellop (and are encouraged) in contexts where religion and poverty intermingle, be it in a Texan trailer park, or the Afhghan mountain regions.

And that's all I have to say about that.

reply to post by Ismail

This to me is fairly analogous of the many reactions of fear and hate that devellop (and are encouraged) in contexts where religion and poverty intermingle, be it in a Texan trailer park, or the Afhghan mountain regions.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Some excellent statistics there that underscore the contention that the thread is based upon.

It's poverty that is really the number one enemy to peace, which some might say the time honored "Peace and Plenty" take the bounty of Plenty away, and the peace goes out the window with it.

Dirt poor people typically have only three things. 1. Love of family and friends, 2. Love of God and their Religion 3. Pride

These then become the things they will fight to keep from loosing.

When the media or their government or religion or all three point to a specific group as the source of the reason for their poverty and that group by extension becomes a threat to their family, friends, notions of god and religion or pride, then yes they will violently defend all that which they do have left.

Poverty is the number one enemy and one no one need face in reality considering the earth's bounty and the technology we have developed to extract, harvest and distribute it.

I would contend that it is purposefully being horded to bitterly divide the people, to keep the world a threatening and chaotic place that then favors the rule of the horders at the top as the true gods who can bestow what people need for peace and prosperity and that's the plenty of bounty from the earth.

The horders get to set the rules and the hoops we all jump through for a serving of that bounty, as long as we serve them in a way that pleases and amuses them in the process.

Poverty is the enemy not our fellow human beings.

Thanks for posting my friend.

Excellent post my friend. You make some cogent points and pretty much cut to the quick on what makes us humans tick.
Political extremism is very similar to religious extremism, sort of a secular replacement where country, political aims and leader replace God and the holy trinity. Fascism leaves no room for compromise and faith to the party equates with faith in God. National aims become the highest goals and those who "get in the way" are treated as subhuman.
Our current political system is becoming eerily reminiscent of Nazism, but with a 2-party polarity to achieve the overarching agenda of the elites. This maintains the illusion of "choice" for those who remain blind to what and who is behind the curtain.
Real Christianity is astoundingly simple at it's core and truly only has one basic requirement - to accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour. Everything else is window dressing yet it is also where the church splits into so many different schools of dogma and practice, enough so that people have been willing to fight and kill over it.
Somehow, mankind has fallen into the trap of thinking that we are neither good enough or smart enough to rule ourselves and require some type of control from outside be it religion or politics. This may be our most tragic mistake of all since, in the end, man still rules over man despite whatever divine claim to power they may have.
With the enlightenment we were smart enough to dismantle the idea of royalty yet 200 years later we still treat the wealthy as if they were of divine lineage somehow.
The love of money is one of the roots of evil, the others being the love of pleasure and of security (well being and safety).
We are still progressing as a species despite the best efforts of the elite to keep us dumb, sick and fighting. Somehow I know that humanity will continue to move forward even if most of the world is decimated by religious or political Holy war.
We DO have a spark of the divine within us and I can agree with religion on one thing; that we are created in God's image. We are a special animal with a unique destiny on this planet. While there is no final goal to be won, it is the road to finding it that makes us better as a species. As long as our sense of wonder does not die, neither shall humankind. We might even learn to live up to that name - Humankind.

Again, good thread. S&F for you Proto

Deep waters go here (in this thread).

Pro-Trav you have embarked on another trip of monumental proportions.

I would point out that you misstated a scripture early in your presentation when you said "money is the root of all evil". Of course it should be "the LOVE OF money is the root of all evil". This is a very important distinction. It being a state of the heart of the individual, not the money itself, as the evil. Sin is always a matter of the heart.

Nevertheless, I would say that what your overall message that comes through to me, on first quick glance is a call for "balance". I am in full agreement. This has been a life-long battle cry for me personally and has kept me from error many times. Balance is the key to not "going over the edge" in what is otherwise important guides in your own beliefs.

I also feel it is important for all religious people to recognize that everyone else around is on a personal "spiritual journey", as are you. It is important for us to honor this truth and allow that person to grow in knowledge acquired through experience. If we are called upon to offer guidance by the person, we should help in whatever way we can, but do no harm.

As a Christian, I believe in the principle of "being a witness" to my fellow man regarding Christ and His love for mankind. However, it is my considered belief that this is done in a "life example" form, more than a verbal onslaught of religious talk. My life is my ministry. This keeps me humble and keeps me on my toes, so to speak.

I hope to add more of my thoughts later,,,


......

reply to post by Asktheanimals

Our current political system is becoming eerily reminiscent of Nazism, but with a 2-party polarity to achieve the overarching agenda of the elites. This maintains the illusion of "choice" for those who remain blind to what and who is behind the curtain.

Yet the core truth is what made Nazism so appealing was the scapegoats it created in blaming tough economic times on. Post World War I Germany was crippled with hyper inflation during the world wide Great Depression, and politicians like Hitler became master's at blaming the woes of the economy, and the nation itself on a scapegoat like the Jews.

It unites the people with something that allows them all to focus their anger on, while bonding them with the politician and the political idealogy that extolls them too.

There is not one rational reason for the incredible burst of religious intollerance rocking the land right now, except when you probe past all the rhetoric and you look at the fear and uncertainty brought on by very hard economic times and the need for people to vent displeasure and fear on something and anything.

Unwittingly many end up transfering the fear and anger from one aspect and issue, then to another, in this case that desire to persecute an entire religion.

Amazingly if it were the Jews being persecuted again, every alarm bell in the nation and the world would be going off.

But because it's a different sect this time, most fail to equate it with Nazism, even while most will muse they don't understand how all of Germany could have been so turned against the Jews, even while they are all turning against the Muslims!

al Christianity is astoundingly simple at it's core and truly only has one basic requirement - to accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour. Everything else is window dressing yet it is also where the church splits into so many different schools of dogma and practice, enough so that people have been willing to fight and kill over it.

Here we see the real potential danger in having a non-interactive God, that kind of highlights why Pharoahs and Emperors chose to make themselves living Gods in the eyes of their peoples.

At least then the buck stops some place when it comes to the ultimate definition that is not so insanely chaotic.

Everyone and his brother ends up with his own unique take on how the religion ought to be practiced in a rather vague at times book purposefully filled with riddles to make it more vague at times.

Yet I must say I am in awe of how the Pennsylvania Dutch Amish have made what is basically a timeless culture of not picking and choosing or attempting to interpret the Christian Gospels personally, but just following them all word for word.

A very peaceful and loving group of people, who not only would have nothing to do with all this nonsense, but not even the technology that helps facilitate the debate.

Somehow, mankind has fallen into the trap of thinking that we are neither good enough or smart enough to rule ourselves and require some type of control from outside be it religion or politics. This may be our most tragic mistake of all since, in the end, man still rules over man despite whatever divine claim to power they may have.

Humans it would seem prefer not to be responsible for the more primal and darker aspects of their nature.

It is an abdication and a cop out, in exchange for a paltry yet powerful word, absolution.

All that is required is submission (slavery) to God and or King and or Country to obtain that word absolution.

With the enlightenment we were smart enough to dismantle the idea of royalty yet 200 years later we still treat the wealthy as if they were of divine lineage somehow.

Could it be because they control the resources that we all need to sustain life? Could it be we admire the fact that through hook or crook they acquired them and we envy their power and independence and admire it, even while we reject notions of our own personal power in favor of God, King and Country's power?

We are still progressing as a species despite the best efforts of the elite to keep us dumb, sick and fighting. Somehow I know that humanity will continue to move forward even if most of the world is decimated by religious or political Holy war.

Rightly or wrongly we do seem to all be choosing sides at this time for better or worse.

Most if not all of us are inflexible in our positions, the tollerant refuse to be less than, the intollerant refuse to be more than.

Traditionally such rancor and accrimony only leads to one thing. War!

We DO have a spark of the divine within us and I can agree with religion on one thing; that we are created in God's image. We are a special animal with a unique destiny on this planet. While there is no final goal to be won, it is the road to finding it that makes us better as a species. As long as our sense of wonder does not die, neither shall humankind. We might even learn to live up to that name - Humankind.

Evolution is a slow process especially when many are of the opinion you have to be cruel to be kind.

Our conditioning by God, Country and King teaches us to embrace a lot of premises and actions that are at odd with one other.

No wonder so many people do have that nagging suspicion that they are failing at some fundamental level and seek forgiveness and absolution.

Yet I think we have to ponder are they seeking forgiveness and absolution from the very same entities that have taught them to fail through conflicting doctrines and messages?

It seems for many it's all about deflection, where it's never ever, lets talk about how I am failing, but instead lets talk about how they are failing, failing worse!

Again, good thread. S&F for you Proto

Great reply friend, and it's not easy in this emotionally charged atmosphere, but I firmly believe we all have to keep trying to foster a intellectual discussion on these issues.

Thanks for being one of the people of that mind.

I recently read an interesting perspective by Ryan Mauro on the 'Global Politician' website regarding foreign policy, religion and terrorism.

I think that we should listen to the former terrorists and the democratic leaders in the Middle East as to what caused terrorism. They know it better than we do, as they have lived in or amongst terrorist organizations. Their feelings about the cause of terrorism are unanimous. It is caused by state-sponsors who use it as an instrument of warfare, and we are merely caught in the cross-fire of an Islamic civil war between those who favor democracy, freedom, human rights and those who favor Islamic “purity,” oppression, and a denial of those values that every human possesses.

Full text from 'Global Politician'

reply to post by subby


One of the most frustrating things about "We will not negotiate with terrorists" has been the way that's been adopted to be, we will not listen to the concerns of anyone who might become so frustrated by those concerns and the determination of people not to listen to or address them that we might end up having to do something violent to get political attention and a platform to be heard.

People really would be well served to look in their dictionaries from time to time, as many really believe terrorism is a military weapon aimed at attrition and domination.

In reality it's defined as an act of desperation to make a political point and gain a platform to have those political points heard.

We in fact promote terrorism by not engaging in a real dialouge to address the underlying issues and needs of the people who turn to it in desperation to try to be heard.

I think in part that is being caused by people who see an advantage to all the war and fighting between the religious sects who then do everything they can to make sure reasoned voices are never considered and fundamental issues that lead to profound unhappiness and frustration are never discussed.

We talk at people, but we sure don't talk with people, and that's a huge part of the problem.

Great post, thanks for sharing.

reply to post by romanmel

I would point out that you misstated a scripture early in your presentation when you said "money is the root of all evil". Of course it should be "the LOVE OF money is the root of all evil". This is a very important distinction. It being a state of the heart of the individual, not the money itself, as the evil. Sin is always a matter of the heart.

I am sorry for having gotten that wrong, yet I think the truth is because money becomes a necessity in basic life, we all end up having a love/hate relationship with it.

I think some of us are better than others at not allowing money to be more important than some people and ideals we love, yet most of us, provided the proper circumstances would do almost anythign to obtain money especially when it comes to providing something vital to the people we love.

Nevertheless, I would say that what your overall message that comes through to me, on first quick glance is a call for "balance". I am in full agreement. This has been a life-long battle cry for me personally and has kept me from error many times. Balance is the key to not "going over the edge" in what is otherwise important guides in your own beliefs.

A happy life in my opinion, a productive life and a satisfying life is one that is all about balance. Food for the mind, body, heart and soul, are all needed for each to be happy and in balance with one another.

Media often denies us food for the mind and feeds it junk food as do our politicians and often our religious leaders too.

The powers that be that horde the raw materials to sustain the body to rule over us with a system of scarcity meant to produce productivity and a certain level of chaos that encourages people to embrace strict laws often conspire to make sure even when we are eating, it's chemicals and steroids instead of things that are healthy for the body.

This can lead to an unhappy heart and a bitter soul.

We need to restore balance to life.

I also feel it is important for all religious people to recognize that everyone else around is on a personal "spiritual journey", as are you. It is important for us to honor this truth and allow that person to grow in knowledge acquired through experience. If we are called upon to offer guidance by the person, we should help in whatever way we can, but do no harm.

We are all evolving towards somethign at our own pace, running around jealously and fearfully hating and killing one another for doing it at a different pace in a different way, is not speeding or aiding this process much!

As a Christian, I believe in the principle of "being a witness" to my fellow man regarding Christ and His love for mankind. However, it is my considered belief that this is done in a "life example" form, more than a verbal onslaught of religious talk. My life is my ministry. This keeps me humble and keeps me on my toes, so to speak.

Simply put talk is cheap and for lovers and fools. It's through our actions we best define our selves and speak for our selves.

We live in a world where people often say and claim one thing, yet more often than not do another, all the while believing they have in fact done what they said and claimed.

This is a huge part of the problem.

Believing one is doing good, is not the same as doing good, and people should be less reliant on those that would pat them on the back and tell them they are good and doing good, and a bit more curious as to why those who aren't in fact aren't.

We have become a race of finger pointers and deflecters.

This really ought to change.

Great post and thanks for sharing my friend.