The American "Hero"

Yes. Its a good thing we have these brave heroes to protect us from the things that go bump in the night. Like all those vietnamese who were just itching to come storming across the ocean and attack the great US of A with their sticks and their twigs. Like those awful El Salvadoran priests and educators who had hate in their hearts for our great nation 1000 miles away. Like that awful pharmaceutical plant in Sudan, who were making all those awful meds for children who might one day grow up to become terrorists and throw rocks at the US from so far away. Like those awful Iraqi's who dared to use the weapons we gave them upon their own civilians, rather than the enemy we wanted to attack, Iran. Like those damn persians who hadnt attacked another nation in 200 years, but had the nerve to protest when we overthrew their government and installed a nice fatherly dictator like the Shah. Like those awful Cubans who regularly try to assassinate our rulers and send groups of terrorists here to murder and foment discord....wait, i got that one backwards.

I dont understand how the world can blame america. When we provided them with wonderful banana republics, assassinated or overthrew multiple horrible democratic leaders who wanted to keep their nations natural resources for their own profit, instead of giving them over to our nice corporations, when we installed 16 dictators around the world to help show their people how to thrive in poverty, and enjoy the benefits of sweatshops, we were doing this all for their own good, and for the betterment of mankind. If you cant see that, then you are just shortsighted, and need to watch more fox news. Bill O'reilly can help you figure it out.

After a great deal of reading,
I am at a loss. Not a lot of actual direction here.
What to contribute?

Defend the US? No. She's made her mistakes and they've been big ones. Most of them are on par with the rest of the worlds mistakes. Like it or not, the US isn't the ultimate evil. Just another misguided government in a world full of misguided governments.

Attack the OP? No. He's got his own axe to grind and plenty vitriol to go around. Maybe he has a point in a blind sort of way. Seems pretty angry but misses the mark by attacking the ones he hasn't got any real dirt on.

Defend "actual" heroes versus “I don't like his reasons or policies so he's not a hero"?
No. Heroes don't need defending. Most of the true heroes are anonymous anyway.


Looks like just another thread full of vigorously applied opinions and ideas with no point other than to bash and insult.

Maybe I'm just getting old but it all comes out as a lot of rhetoric and no real point.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Ah nenothtu, me old antagonist... One of these days we'll have to get round that campfire & share a few bottles. You bring the Bourbon, your wife the Vodka, my belle the Potain & me the Scotch. Maybe we can get that old Sgt from Virginia to bring some shine?

Yeah, I was one of THOSE - you know, the guys who folks revile even more than soldiers, with even less conception of the job they do.

Its all coming out now, almost as if we were round the fire, eh?
A childhood mate of mine did 12yrs in the British Army, then decided to quit to marry his girlfriend. He took 1 of THOSE jobs so he could afford to buy a business.
When he got back, he told me "They're a shower of C-words. Its a 'kin dirty, dirty business &, I dont care what the 'kin per diem is, I'm f#ed if I'm doing it again."
I'm inclined to take his word for it...

Hey mate! Hope this finds you well!

My dear old dad used to drink bourbon, and it's vile stuff. I'll bring the 'shine, as the Virginia Gentleman is otherwise occupied at the moment, hanging wallpaper or something.

I commiserate with your friend. as I said above, there are some schemes that are silly, some hare-brained, and some hair-raising. The same goes for the outfits themselves. There are some "professional" outfits, and there are a LOT of "cowboy" outfits. Sounds like he fell in with one of the latter, and that CAN be a bitter pill! I don't blame him a bit for his reaction.

Former British military are some of the finest folks I've ever worked with. Near unflappable, always professional. I've gotta ask, though, what's up with stopping in the middle of a perfectly good firefight, and brewing tea? Seriously, they are some of the coolest customers under pressure I've ever run across. I can only imagine the frustration of a man who was used to 12 years of that sort of professionalism if he falls in amongst a bunch of "cowboys".

I hope he's doing well these days in whatever he decided to do.

reply to post by pexx421


So many deaf ears for this to fall on here at ATS. They are too hung up thinking that this whole thing is about someone trying to insult their soldiers, their "heroes". Funny how that ignorant defense is what this thread is REALLY about; the fact that they are ignoring these very REAL global issues because they don't want to offend the feelings of vets and their families. Will political correctness condemn humanity? This is pretty much exactly the mentality that most of the Germans who joined the Nazi movement had.

reply to post by Brood

Brood,

Did you realize that Nazi Germany also knows his fair share of heroes?

Recently we had a statue placed to honor a Nazi German soldier. I live in the Netherlands!!

While stationed in Holland he managed two save to children from a farm that was about to be blown up by infantry fire. He saved those children but lost his own life in the process....

Heroes are not defined by the regime they serve under!!

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by Brood

 

Brood,

Did you realize that Nazi Germany also knows his fair share of heroes?

Recently we had a statue placed to honor a Nazi German soldier. I live in the Netherlands!!

While stationed in Holland he managed two save to children from a farm that was about to be blown up by infantry fire. He saved those children but lost his own life in the process....

Heroes are not defined by the regime they serve under!!

Have a nice day.

Pointing out the similarities between the German Hero and the American Hero: You think you are arguing against me? Peculiar; you are doing quite the opposite. Also, I never said that this mentality was limitted to the country's borders. Please, pay attention to what you are trying to argue.

Have a nice day.

reply to post by Brood

Brood,

I am very sorry if I misinterpreted the underlying message of your thread (I get that a lot, I'm a bit ignorant you see) but I got the impression that you were arguing that because the war in Iraq is an illegal one, the soldiers fighting in it are morally detestable and can never acquire the title of "hero"....

So I gave you my example of a soldier belonging to a regime which we can all agree upon, was a morally detestable cause. Yet, as an individual, this German soldier gave his life to save the life of two children from the enemies site.

What is the definition of a hero in your book??

Peace

actually you are making his point for him. Many people here just classify all soldiers as "heroes". Sadly this is just not the case. Many of them ARE just ignorant, uneducated, arrogant, ruthless, and inhumane....probably in greater proportion than general populace, as those are the types more drawn to military service, and ideals like nationalism, and patriotism, which are truly just racism under a different name. At any rate, his point, as yours, is that a hero is defined by his actions, his choice to put himself at risk for something other than money, or orders, or survival. The nazi that you pointed out, risked his life to save children that were not related to him or to his mission. I think we can all agree that this is one good definition of a "hero". Further, it sounds, and i may be assuming here, like he may have been trying to save them from a conflagration caused by his own side. It does take heroism to go against what your own group is doing, that you recognize is wrong. THIS, i think, is largely the heroism that many feel is lacking in the american military, and when it IS exercised, it is often met with derision, admonishment, and punishment, by the establishment and civilians alike. Our own nation is so awash in nationalism and misinformation that they cannot recognize true heroism when they see it. The criticize and castigate whistleblowers and people of conscience, who recognize the wrong they are doing and try to expose it to the light of day. When truth is espoused it is shouted down, and the bringers of truth are imprisoned, blacklisted, and declared craven and pariah. If ever you feel truth to be dangerous to your agenda, then truly should start questioning your motives.

It is true these soldiers took an oath to uphold the constitution and to protect us from enemies foreign and domestic. If they truly believed in this oath, and had the courage of their convictions, then surely the only true heroism would be to come home, and save us from the corporations and congressmen and leaders of industry and media who are assaulting our freedoms, stealing our money and livelihood, and destroying our childrens hope for the future.

Originally posted by pexx421
actually you are making his point for him. Many people here just classify all soldiers as "heroes".

No, I get it but here's my problem...

A hero is somebody who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice

What is the definition of a hero? According to me a hero is somebody who is willing to risk his/her life to preserve that of another. But I have no claim on this term, everybody has his/her own definition of what a hero is.

Is a hero also somebody who is willing to risk his/her life not for the preservation of another life but the preservation of the morals and values of the society the hero comes from??

Sure!! The term hero is pretty relative so you could label 'm as such. It is only within that group they are heroes but heroes nonetheless.

You see, I do not have a problem with somebody saying that soldiers are not heroes just because they are soldiers but than you should also question whether or not you can agree with the morals and principles your army upholds. With other words, if you belong in the society you are in!!

I have no problem with American people regarding their soldiers as heroes, I also have no problem with Al-qaida regarding their suicide terrorists as heroes....

It's relative

Peace

Several members have pointed out, with some justice, that Nazi Germany had heroes, too. ...and so they did, heroes are seldom, if ever, defined by ideology. They are defined by the actions they take.

Heroes. Can't be defined readily, but we know 'em when we see 'em. Actions always speak louder than words. Merely showing up for a war as a soldier, or fire as a fireman, a criminal action in progress as a policeman, doesn't necessarily make one a hero. It can certainly set one up to become one. Actions, and actions alone, make one a hero, or conversely, a villain.

No group of soldiers, firemen, or police are all heroes. Nor are they all villains.

I choose to view them all as more apt to be the former, rather than the latter. I respect them more than words on a computer screen can ever convey, though I won't stop trying.

Heroes.

Well you say that today's soldier doesn't protect your freedom. That is fairly easy to say when no nation has ever attacked us since 1941 (Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists be damned). If there were no soldiers, no army, would you still have what little freedom you have now? And, compared to other nations, do you really think you don't have freedom?

Spoiled little child is what you are, had to sacrifice little to nothing and you think you have the right to be up in arms about the people who do sacrifice.

I consider a soldier a hero that has the right intentions at heart. No, a soldier is not automatically a hero; a hero would be SSGT. Salvatore Giunta and company.

This is directed to no one in particular, rather it is directed to all in which it applies.

Now see, thats the kind of catchy phrase, party slogan, ad homonim attack I know and love from "patriots". Of course, according to your logic, we could also state that without stalin's russia, we would all be speaking german (as we would likely have lost the war without the russians), and so stalin was a good thing that preserves our freedoms as well. See how that works? Its fallacy to take what we have today, this massive overweening Military industrial complex that engages nations all over the world, meddling in others politics, and supporting our corporations grasping for natural resources, and then say "what if we had no military at all, how would that be, Duhh??" as if there is no middle ground. Dont be ignorant. We could have a much smaller, less corrupt, and more efficient military that we all believe in, that stays here and truly protects our borders, and is not sent out to threaten nations who decide they dont want to follow the same religion, social ideology, or financial system we do, or just want to trade oil in euros instead of dollars. Where we dont have to see casualties of countries we go to "save" running up into the millions, and hear stories about our soldiers raping and murdering, or mass wedding bombings because our planes and drones cant tell the difference between a wedding and a bunch of terrorists.

And as I stated before....If the soldiers truly want to protect our freedoms they need to come home. We need them here while the bankers are throwing us out of our homes, while the FDA is telling us we must eat poisonous foods, and are not allowed to take natural medicines. We need them here when the government is telling us we have no right to defend ourselves, our homes, or our property. We need them here when the government is deciding that we all must pay 40k or more of our life earnings so the big bank execs can continue to buy yachts. We need them here when BP or Exxon decide to pollute our land sea and air and just walk away.

Further more, you are RIGHT when you say no country has attacked us since 1941....and no COUNTRY has THREATENED to attack us....SO HOW ARE THEY FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM???

Originally posted by pexx421
Further more, you are RIGHT when you say no country has attacked us since 1941....and no COUNTRY has THREATENED to attack us....SO HOW ARE THEY FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM???

We will bury you

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d73af0ffa3a1.jpg[/atsimg]
We will bury you

On August 24, 1963, Khrushchev himself remarked in his speech in Yugoslavia, "I once said, 'We will bury you,' and I got into trouble with it

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/db5ff0b5d72f.jpg[/atsimg]
N Korea Threatens US, S Korea With Nuclear Attacks

(RTTNews) - North Korea's military on Friday threatened the United States and South Korea with "unprecedented nuclear attacks," accusing them of trying to topple the Pyongyang regime.

reply to post by pexx421


I agree with you on the fact that we shouldn't have military outside of our border. We should do what Japan is doing, sustaining a military that has defense capabilities only, but that isn't realistic for us anymore. We have too many enemies. We can't pull out of Japan because China could easily eliminate them, and that wouldn't be good for us in the least.

We should pull out of places that we don't need troops for, like the Middle East and Europe. Why are we there? Yes, they aren't defending our freedom over there. They are defending themselves while following orders from the top, and the top tells us all that they are defending our freedoms.

Oh, and we did need Stalin in WWII. He wasn't an ally, but he was useful, you cannot deny that. If Hitler didn't have to split his forces, he could have taken Europe. How does that affect us? It affects us more than you can possibly fathom. It didn't happen, so thinking about what could have been is irrelevant.

Our soldiers are not equipped to fight for us against the Government, against corporations. They are equipped to fight other soldiers. It is up to We The People to take on the Government and corporations. We have the power, we just don't use it. If it came right down to it, most of the military would side with the people. I don't see how anyone with a heart could kill the innocent, especially their own people, but that is a whole separate can of worms.

Originally posted by pexx421

And as I stated before....If the soldiers truly want to protect our freedoms they need to come home. We need them here while the bankers are throwing us out of our homes, while the FDA is telling us we must eat poisonous foods, and are not allowed to take natural medicines. We need them here when the government is telling us we have no right to defend ourselves, our homes, or our property. We need them here when the government is deciding that we all must pay 40k or more of our life earnings so the big bank execs can continue to buy yachts. We need them here when BP or Exxon decide to pollute our land sea and air and just walk away.

Considering the peculiar sort 0f "accolades" I got from going "there" and fighting rather than staying "here" and resting, I'll be damned of I'd lift a finger to defend you now. You're on your own. Good luck with that.

The folks I WILL defend already have my number if they need it, for the most part.

Further more, you are RIGHT when you say no country has attacked us since 1941....and no COUNTRY has THREATENED to attack us....SO HOW ARE THEY FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM???

See? THAT'S the variety of recognition I'm talking about - being told how useless my efforts were, while simultaneously lauding the results of them. I'll not make the same mistakes twice.

Like I said, good luck with your corporate boogey men, and godspeed.

Edit to add: I gotta admire your spunk, though. Heaping scorn on folks, then expecting them to exert themselves on your behalf. That's pretty ballsy. I know rich folks like that, too. You know, corporate types...

Well done. Taking a statement made in rhetoric, and painting it out of context as if he was saying it in front of an army, while making a promise. Of course, he was speaking about the fact that his leninist ideology would outlast the capitalist ideology, and had prefaced it with saying "if you dont like us, dont ask us to visit you, and dont accept our invitations to come here". Yes, sounds like hes just about to attack us.

I suppose you also ascribe to the "ahmadinejad is an anti semite, and iran hates jews" crowd as well....despite the fact that Iran has the largest jewish population outside of israel in the ME, jews are in the iranian parliament, and ahmadinejads regime has financially aided several of the many jewish temples in Iran. Just goes to show how far a catchy party phrase and a little hyperbole can get you.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Why would you take something so incredibly out of context if you're going to provide the link to the source that justifies the saying directly after it?

On August 24, 1963, Khrushchev himself remarked in his speech in Yugoslavia, "I once said, 'We will bury you,' and I got into trouble with it. Of course we will not bury you with a shovel. Your own working class will bury you," [4] a reference to the Marxist saying, "The proletariat is the undertaker of capitalism", based on the concluding statement in Chapter 1 of the Communist Manifesto: "What the bourgeoisie therefore produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers. Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable".

Basically, he is not saying "We will bury you", he is saying "You will dig your own grave". I swear there's a word for people who take things like this out of context and attempt to convince the public that it is something to worry about... oh right, fear-monger.

Yeah I thought people would respond that way. That's why I provided the link

However whether it was meant as a direct threat or saying that "How it was explained later after the fact" doesn't now matter the point is it was a threat.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Considering the peculiar sort 0f "accolades" I got from going "there" and fighting rather than staying "here" and resting, I'll be damned of I'd lift a finger to defend you now. You're on your own. Good luck with that.

The folks I WILL defend already have my number if they need it, for the most part.

The American military has done bounds to protect its people in the past; the reality is, they are no longer defending freedoms and rights. Actually, they are IMPEACHING on the freedoms and rights of OTHER COUNTRIES, not to defend ANYTHING, but to procure CORPORATOCRACY. Truth is, we don't care that you're not defending our rights and freedoms anymore because there is NOTHING ATTACKING THEM.

Further more, you are RIGHT when you say no country has attacked us since 1941....and no COUNTRY has THREATENED to attack us....SO HOW ARE THEY FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM???

See? THAT'S the variety of recognition I'm talking about - being told how useless my efforts were. I'll not make the same mistakes twice.

Like I said, good luck with your corporate boogey men, and godspeed.

I'm glad you're so quick to defend thee actions of the military based on defense of rights and freedoms that don't exist. I implore you, answer this question and you will receive some credibility: what rights and freedoms of America are you defending by being in the Middle East right now? Seriously, do not speak a word other than answering this, and you will gain my respect. Every time I ask you a serious question regarding REAL GLOBAL ISSUES you immediately right them off on this generic idea of the American "hero" and your brainwashing on how soldiers are to be regarded, and the American Military should always be trusted because they protect our "rights and freedoms". If it is your honest "opinion" that the war in Iraq protects America's rights and freedoms, I know of 6 billion people that would be happy to argue against you based on the REAL TERROR that America is spreading across the globe to procure resources and supply routes to further income for certain corporations that have way too much control over American politics. Don't let your emotions get in the way of your rational thinking.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Yeah I thought people would respond that way. That's why I provided the link

However whether it was meant as a direct threat or saying that "How it was explained later after the fact" doesn't now matter the point is it was a threat.

It was not a threat, it was a prediction. It's a shame that after directly showing you that you still choose not to believe. Blind much? Arguing against the reality of a saying in the Russian language... so arrogant in your ignorance.