The American "Hero"

reply to post by 19872012


true, this job is going to be here whether you like or support it or not. someone is going to get suckered into going overseas and fighting over petty nonsense, that's just how it is. if you don't like pork, the whole pork industry isn't going to shut down because lots of other people do. if you hate pork, don't blame the guy working in the pork factory trying to support his family. you never know, that poor worker might not even like pork himself.

Originally posted by Jenna


I'd like to direct your attention to the last post on the second page where I showed claims that the troops are all poor and/or ignorant are woefully incorrect.

I accept the statistics Jenna , but i did not state that "the troops are all poor and/or ignorant " .

Surely there is a difficulty for families drawn from the bottom two quintiles ,aprox.29 %* of total recruits , to contribute to their children's education etc.. Even middle class families must have difficulty paying for college fees.
The assistance given by Education and Tuition Assistance Programs after completing military service ,are surely an incentive . And certainly represent an option otherwise unavailable, to people drawn from this economic bracket.

Just to clarify ....... i accept that :
Enlisted recruits are significantly more likely to come from high-income neighborhoods than from low-income neighbourhoods.


And regret using the term piss poor.

I wonder if the OP lives in the USA...he doesnt state it in his profile...wonder if he is scared or ashamed of saying he lives in the USA, if so, he can pack up and leave, there are PLENTY of countries he can go to
That goes for everyone else bashing on America or her soldiers: if you dont like it here, LEAVE, free up jobs for people that WANT TO BE HERE

Originally posted by Brood
...Firemen do not need to hang up their morals on life and death to serve their country...

You seem to be hung up on "morals" a lot, and the compromise thereof. I submit that you are referring to YOUR concept of morals, and trying to make them apply to everyone.

I have NEVER compromised my morals. To have done so would have made me less than a man in my own eyes, regardless of what others may think. The fact remains that some folks just desperately NEED killing. To believe otherwise is to indicate you've never banged around in the seedier parts of this old planet. Only the sheltered think everyone is "innocent".

To have left those individuals of that nature whom one runs across from time to time still able to function would compromise MY morals. That allows them to go on their merry way victimizing yet more innocent folks, who are for the most part unable or unwilling to defend themselves. That, by the way, is not an indictment of the gentler folks. We NEED those types of people. They just aren't geared towards the necessary mindset to stop the predators. That's WHY they're gentler folks.

And someone sometimes has to man the walls on their behalf. Those who do so will continue to do so, whether you approve or not.

As a disclaimer, I probably need to inform you that I've never been a part of the official US military, but I HAVE seen my share of bullet-flinging contests in various parts of the world in one capacity or another.

Yeah, I was one of THOSE - you know, the guys who folks revile even more than soldiers, with even less conception of the job they do. The only real difference was that I was afforded the luxury of picking my battles rather than having them picked for me, and I could turn down the ones I didn't like. Honest to God soldiers don't have that luxury, and I have to say, I believe their choices are harder than mine were, and they probably have a higher sense of duty than I do in order to be able to force themselves to go wherever they're sent. My hat's off to 'em, and by God they ARE heroes.

Myself, I've been called a lot of things, but never a "hero", and wouldn't take the title if anyone ever tried to pin it on me, because it's not a title I deserve.

That doesn't mean that I don't know what one IS, and I know one when I see one - and I have.

Originally posted by HomerinNC
I wonder if the OP lives in the USA...he doesn't state it in his profile...wonder if he is scared or ashamed of saying he lives in the USA, if so, he can pack up and leave, there are PLENTY of countries he can go to
That goes for everyone else bashing on America or her soldiers: if you dont like it here, LEAVE, free up jobs for people that WANT TO BE HERE

I've stated several times that I am from Canada. Don't bother showing up here and arguing as if you're involved in the topic, what you're arguing has nothing to do with any of the issues I have brought up at all. You showing up here to defend the American military is undoubtedly just more proof toward my point about how the American government controls its people with fear and the worship of the military and image of the "hero", the actual issue in this topic.

Telling me to pack up and leave is very mature, though. Actually, It's funny that you should think you are arguing against me by saying that if I don't like what the military is saying, I should "LEAVE THE COUNTRY", because this is exactly the kind of preverse brainwashing of your media that I am talking about.

You are not against me, you are simply an example of one of my points. I suggest -- if you want to continue posting in this thread as if you're against me -- you actually read what I am posting and not make comments that directly show proof of what I am saying.

reply to post by nenothtu

I find your response interesting are you a mercinary,someone involved with Blackwater/XE or non military security apparatus,myself personally I've only been shot at once cant say I enjoyed the experience nor was I heroic my primary concern was survival and extricating my ass from the vicinity.

reply to post by nenothtu

Originally posted by Jenna
Leaving Iraq or Afghanistan with no working government and no military/security forces of their own would be irresponsible and would have left the civilians in those countries at the mercy of whichever warlord was strong enough to impose his will on everyone. But apparently that's what some people here would prefer.

Congrats on recognizing that, Jenna. I see a lot of folks who just can't think that far, but recent history DOES prove it. That is PRECISELY the mistake we made in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal there, which led directly to what we have today.

When the Russians exited out the front door, the US exited out the back door, leaving a power vacuum to be filled by the ISI created Taliban, and various warlords, haggling over the remains of a country like so many buzzards. There were those at the time, even back then, arguing against such a boneheaded move, but the higher-up wouldn't approve of it, washing their hands and proclaiming a job well done. Yup, there were those BEGGING for aid for the devastated Afghans, but those pleas fell on deaf ears.

"Job well done" my ass. It was a job HALF done, and the half that wasn't done came back to bite us later. It amazes me to see people now, thinking themselves superior, proclaiming that we ought to do it again in the face of historical precedent.

The mind boggles. One has to wonder who will die to save them or their children from their own short-sightedness on down the road...

Originally posted by anglodemonicmatrix
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I find your response interesting are you a mercinary,someone involved with Blackwater/XE or non military security apparatus,myself personally I've only been shot at once cant say I enjoyed the experience nor was I heroic my primary concern was survival and extricating my ass from the vicinity.

I once WAS a "mercenary", but that was years ago. I'm just a broke down old man now. Back when I did such things, it was a different world. There was no "Blackwater"/Xe at the time, and most contracts involved "security" for private concerns, or people with technical knowledge (like the guys who trained the Saudis on their new missiles for Vinnell Corp., I believe it was) or specialized skills. Some contracts were for government agencies or cutouts for them, and some were purely private concerns. When Blackwater started out, all I knew about them was that they had a shooting range and training facility in Moynock, NC. Never dealt with them at all.

I fought in Nicaragua during the Sandinista war as "security" for a mining concern. I won't name the company in an open forum, but it was a Canadian company, the mine was in Departmento Zelaya (taking almost all of eastern Nicaragua at the time, so that doesn't narrow it down much) which is now the RAAN, and I wound up defending villagers from Sandinista depredations more than I did the mine itself. I barely made it out alive, being "smuggled" out by the same villagers I'd once stood up for. Sometimes, it pays to help folks out, even when others will revile you for it. Some of the other guys with me, MOST of the other guys, weren't so lucky.

Yeah, we lost. Sometimes happens.

I refused an offer to go back to Nicaragua for the Contra Wars, under a different employer. I probably should have gone, considering what the Sandinistas did to the Miskitos, but I'd had enough of the place with one narrow escape, and "my" villagers were already in Honduras. That's not the only contract I've turned down. Some were silly, some were hare-brained, and some were just plain wrong.

I went a few other places, like Lebanon and Afghanistan, and a couple others, but would rather not go into much more detail on them.

I spent 13 years or so working for Wackenhut.

Now, I sit around and talk, so that folks can laugh at me behind their hands. Call it a hobby.

Touching on your concept of "heroic", what I've found is that the difference between a "coward" and a "brave man" is only a matter of self control. Anyone who says they've never been scared is either a liar or a psychopath. Psychopaths are best dealt with summarily, for the good of all concerned - excepting the psychpath in question, of course. They not only kill the wrong people, but they will get your OWN people killed.

"Bravery", I believe, is not the ABSENCE of fear, it's the MASTERY of it. It will still be there, but you make yourself do what you have to in spite of it. Sometimes, that will involve un-assing that AO, post haste, so you can report, and maybe have to run right back into it. Sometime, that will mean running straight into what has you scared spitless, and screaming like a maniac while you do it. Sometimes, it will mean something else, in between.

I did a job, nothing more. I picked and chose based upon what I believed needed done. Nothing heroic about it, but I have carried - and buried - real "heroes", whose boots I wasn't fit to polish.

But hey, it's all in the paycheck, right? Anyhow, that's why I get bent out of shape when folks trash "heroes" that they know nothing about. Most of those I ever knew are dead now.

Take it for what it's worth, and bear in mind that it comes from a crazy old guy.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by seagull

 

I know can't really give you one but here you go.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7ef741d6ec81.gif[/atsimg]

Ditto.

"Ditto" is only one line.

Can I ditto again?

OP, its been stated clearly that they are heroes because they are in an environment of danger in fear for their lives following orders and protecting their combat team. Of course by that definition so are al qeda, hammas, and so were the nazis. Good thing we have so many heroes around in the world today, makes me feel very safe.

reply to post by Brood

Originally posted by Brood
.... it is not my intention to offend anyone in any way.

"... it is not my intention to offend anyone in any way"

-Brood

post by Brood

Originally posted by Brood
It's funny that you should all refer to Nazis so negatively...
Source, posted by Brood

Your intention is not to offend anyone .... but it is funny that others should ALL refer to Nazis so negatively.

[quote splice]
It is not Brood's intentions to offend anyone in any way, but it is funny that others should all refer to Nazis so negatively.
[/quote splice]

how could that possibly offend anyone?

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Jenna
Leaving Iraq or Afghanistan with no working government and no military/security forces of their own would be irresponsible and would have left the civilians in those countries at the mercy of whichever warlord was strong enough to impose his will on everyone. But apparently that's what some people here would prefer.

Congrats on recognizing that, Jenna. I see a lot of folks who just can't think that far, but recent history DOES prove it. That is PRECISELY the mistake we made in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal there, which led directly to what we have today.

When the Russians exited out the front door, the US exited out the back door, leaving a power vacuum to be filled by the ISI created Taliban, and various warlords, haggling over the remains of a country like so many buzzards. There were those at the time, even back then, arguing against such a boneheaded move, but the higher-up wouldn't approve of it, washing their hands and proclaiming a job well done. Yup, there were those BEGGING for aid for the devastated Afghans, but those pleas fell on deaf ears.

"Job well done" my ass. It was a job HALF done, and the half that wasn't done came back to bite us later. It amazes me to see people now, thinking themselves superior, proclaiming that we ought to do it again in the face of historical precedent.

The mind boggles. One has to wonder who will die to save them or their children from their own short-sightedness on down the road...

This all focuses on stuff that really has very little to do with the discussion. Again, just a defense against America's actions and blah blah, seriously. There are more important issues than this in the world, and America won't convince the world that the American military doesn't have an agenda that goes beyond their democratic beliefs, considering Iraq is not nearly as oppressed as some other countries in the world at current. It's obvious that this is grounds for 6 billion people in the world to consider a possible conspiracy, and question America's TRUE intention on the wars it wages. I suggest you read up on what this topic is really about before you continue writing essays about foreign politics that don't really defend against anything I've said at all. It's great the you were in a war or something, I'm sure you feel very accomplished about it; this is the last place to talk about that, though. Sorry.

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher


This is an argument based on material that is taken WAY out of context in an attempt to sabotage the topic at hand by using political correctness to make everyone offended into not dealing with some serious issues that are trying to be discussed maturely here. the post was clearly creating a comparison between the actions of the German military and the mindset of the German soldiers and those of the American military and the American soldiers. I'm not lying, it's not my intent to offend anyone. If you are offended by this comparison, consult your [snip] government about it because this is how most of the world sees it; sorry for inferring the truth and expecting you to understand; that is all you will find me apologizing for here. Grow up, flamer.

reply to post by nenothtu

Now, I sit around and talk, so that folks can laugh at me behind their hands. Call it a hobby.

That's only because they are, as all too many are these days, clueless.

My words will, without a doubt, bounce off their armour of ignorance and apathy, and that's fine...wrong, but it's a free land, for the moment.

My words, such as they are, are meant for you, and others like you, who gave up what we, who've never served a day on a battlefield, laughingly call "real life" to stand between us, and the stuff that goes bump in the night.

I've seen the scars, both physical and mental, that men and women like yourself bear. ...and strange as it may sound? I thank you for that. Because I've seen the scars, mental and physical, of people who didn't have someone like you, and my family, standing between them, and the things that go bump in the night.

I know that most of you didn't do it for me, specifically... But you did anyway, and for that I thank you. It doesn't help with the memories, or the pain, but it's all I have. My thanks, my gratitude, and an anger that you and others like you were put into the danger in the first place.

Reading back over that, it's sounds like platitude, but I hope the thoughts behind it came through.

reply to post by nenothtuAh nenothtu, me old antagonist... One of these days we'll have to get round that campfire & share a few bottles. You bring the Bourbon, your wife the Vodka, my belle the Potain & me the Scotch. Maybe we can get that old Sgt from Virginia to bring some shine?

Yeah, I was one of THOSE - you know, the guys who folks revile even more than soldiers, with even less conception of the job they do.

Its all coming out now, almost as if we were round the fire, eh?
A childhood mate of mine did 12yrs in the British Army, then decided to quit to marry his girlfriend. He took 1 of THOSE jobs so he could afford to buy a business.
When he got back, he told me "They're a shower of C-words. Its a 'kin dirty, dirty business &, I dont care what the 'kin per diem is, I'm f#ed if I'm doing it again."
I'm inclined to take his word for it...

Originally posted by Brood
There are more important issues than this in the world, and America won't convince the world that the American military doesn't have an agenda that goes beyond their democratic beliefs, considering Iraq is not nearly as oppressed as some other countries in the world at current. It's obvious that this is grounds for 6 billion people in the world to consider a possible conspiracy, and question America's TRUE intention on the wars it wages.

Indeed there are, yet you chose to start this topic and not a thread on one of those more important issues. The thing is, American's as a whole really don't care what the world thinks of us. After so many years of being the scape goat for every little bad thing that happens in the world, we're used to it. An earthquake hit China? Blame the Americans. Haiti got hit by a hurricane? Blame the Americans. African tribes are killing each other again? Blame Americans. A suicide bomber blew up a market and killed a bunch of innocent women and children? Blame Americans. If we don't try to help any other countries, we're insensitive buttheads who think only of ourselves. If we do, we're an imperialist nation trying to take over the world.

I've participated in enough of these discussions to come to the realization that the rest of the world needs a scapegoat and they've chosen us. That's fine, whatever. I really don't care anymore. Doesn't matter what we do, there are those who will find someway to make everything our fault anyway so what's the point in trying to fight it? It's just a waste of my time. What I will not tolerate is nonsensical claims about our men and women in uniform. They are not setting houses on fire and shooting whatever children run out of them. They are not the dumbest and poorest the country has to offer. They are not brainwashed, puppy killing, murder-loving rapists.

Is every single person in uniform a hero? No. There are a few who aren't quite right in the head and really do all the bad things American troops are accused of doing, but they are few and far between. They are not heroes. There are some who just got out of basic, or are still in it, who've done nothing but put the uniform on. They are not heroes. Not yet, anyway. Time will tell if they become heroes. There are some who cowered in fear and wanted discharged the first time they thought they might get sent somewhere. They are not heroes. The ones who really are heroes don't think of themselves as such and would laugh at you if you tried to call them one.

The problem here is you tried comparing it to a man in a soup kitchen who lost his hand. There are different kinds of heroes and different types of heroic acts. That doesn't make one a hero and the other not just because they didn't perform the exact same heroic act. That man was a hero for trying to feed those who would otherwise starve. So is the guy in uniform who defends himself and his friends when he knows few (or none) of them are going to make it out alive instead of turning tail and running while leaving his friends to die. So is the guy who tries to get as many of his friends out of harms way as possible if he sees a way out. So is the guy who gets deployed to a foreign country and does nothing more than try to get running water working for the city/town/village he's stationed in. So is the guy who stops and pulls someone out of a burning car without stopping to think of the danger he's putting himself in. One being a hero doesn't mean the others aren't heroes as well.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I see a lot of folks who just can't think that far, but recent history DOES prove it. That is PRECISELY the mistake we made in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal there, which led directly to what we have today.

Some people seem to think only in the short term with no regard for what those short term solutions will cause to happen in the long term. What I find really sad is that if we had pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan years ago and let history repeat itself, the same people who complain about us still being there would then be complaining because we left those countries defenseless. Can't please everyone I suppose.

reply to post by Jenna


Bravo Jenna, star for you

Originally posted by Brood
reply to post by Esoteric Teacher

 

This is an argument based on material that is taken WAY out of context in an attempt to sabotage the topic at hand by using political correctness to make everyone offended into not dealing with some serious issues that are trying to be discussed maturely here. the post was clearly creating a comparison between the actions of the German military and the mindset of the German soldiers and those of the American military and the American soldiers. I'm not lying, it's not my intent to offend anyone. If you are offended by this comparison, consult your [snip] government about it because this is how most of the world sees it; sorry for inferring the truth and expecting you to understand; that is all you will find me apologizing for here. Grow up, flamer.

edit on 12-9-2010 by Brood because: (no reason given)

edit on 9/12/2010 by 12m8keall2c because: Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

Yes, WAY out of context. The original post leaves out a lot of context, too. You want merely to get on a soapbox and bash away at "heroes" (never a safe or sane avocation, by the way), yet ignore the contextual circumstances that create them. Furthermore, you get your knickers in a wad if someone brings up the context, so that there is a background to showcase your rant.

Gotta wonder as to motivations when you see someone start sweating and trying to draw attention away from a discussion at hand. Makes one wonder if the knife got too close to the bone.