So, ATS, Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

Originally posted by TailoredVagabond

Personally, I want more men held to account for their children, as in social terms at least, men can /(and too often do, including my own "father") simply walk away if a woman has their baby. This should, in a financial sense, never be allowed to happen.

Notice that I've not touched on when women 'trap' men with pregnancy/a baby. That's a whole other circumstancial issue.

When mandatory Paternity and financial support becomes law - - - for all children born. Then I'll consider the man's position and rights in abortion.

Would you pay to have the fetus "harvested" and put into a surrogate? Then pay the surrogate to carry the baby to term?

Women trap men with pregnancy?????????????????? My knowledge of biology says it Takes Two. Wear a damn condemn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply to post by TokiTheDestroyer


It is a painful circumstance, but has no business being a political "issue." It is the most personal and private question that any man or woman might face. But in the end, it is the woman's decision, it is her body. We as men may not like it, but that's the way nature works and men don't really get a say. Life is not fair.

That said, if the woman is to make the choice, she should have to make it within the first 2 trimesters. She bears that responsibility. Thus, no 3rd trimester abortions except when the mother's life is at risk or the woman has been prevented from seeking help due to a repressive/abusive relationship.

Basically, people should mind their own business.

If for some reason society forces woman to bear their children, then that same society should be obligated to support the child for the entirety of their juvenile years. To hell with the "pro-life" radicals who would force birth, but then leave the child in poverty. I've learned that the majority of "pro life" radicals don't give a damn about children or their parents once they are born.

Pro life.

Every day those of you reading this make decisions in, of and about you and others under your care.
100% of the time you choose LIFE.

It is pretty agreed uponn that those who choose thanatos,
or death by suicide have some abnormal, not normal issue.

So rewind the tape back to when you were two months old.
When you were hungry, you on a spiritual level, knew that
you were "dying" so you choose life by screaming for food.
100% of the time.


Rewind back to when you were only six months past your
conception, in the womb, and the same truth exists, you were choosing life.
100% of the time.

Now believing in evolution, we are pond scum, and it matters not
if an older pond scum chooses to end your life two months after your conception,
in spite of the fact that even at that time you were 100% of the time choosing life.

The evolutionary NAURAL RIGHTS are LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT of HAPPINESS.
These rights are codified in the Constitution for one and other laws.

A inalinable and unalienable right is a right that a being possesses inherent in their self.
It is the primary right from which any and all others originate.

A NATURALIST which includes atheism, agnosticism, secular humanism, existentialism, nihilism, Marxism, New will say about abortion: "It is fine, due to we are POND SCUM, and the foetus is a blob of unwanted growth."
A POLYTHEIST which includes Hinduism, Mormonism, Neo-Paganism, Wicca, will say that the decision is up to the woman due to all morals being relative.
A PANTHEIST which includes Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, New Age Consciousness, is that it is up to the woman as morals are relative.
A PANENTHEIST, FINITE THEIST, DEIST, and THEIST will generally say choose LIFE.

"WOMEN trap men with pregnancy?????"

This is a statement an earlier poster typed.

This comment is emanating an odor which if traced to its origin would uncover a heap of preemptive environmental superfluity.

This thought process is called VICTIMSTANCE.

In my opinion, the question of abortion is moot.

Why we always focus on it is beyond me. We are all capable of analytical thought, I'm sure, so why is it we always concern ourselves with the morality and legality of abortion rather than the root causes of the individual need for abortion?

Abortion has been around for a very long time. Unfortunately, in periods of drought, extreme cold, and famine, human beings have had to consider rudimentary family planning. Herbs, saps, stress positions, potions, movements and, lamentably, infanticide have all been practiced as ways to avoid bringing a new life into the tribe at an inopportune time. In modern times, abortions, which can be very harmful to the woman, have been practiced legally with chemicals and pills - as well as illegally, in back alleys.

The main question is, if abortion is occasionally inevitable, why is it we concern ourselves so much the act of abortion itself, rather than concerning ourselves with the total prevention of unwanted pregnancy?

**Abstinence is not a panacea for unwanted teen pregnancy; as Purity Rings and the Bush Administration clearly demonstrated over the last decade.

I don't think this should even be an issue. I'm pro choice for one simple reason. I hate when people try and force their beliefs on everyone else. If you think its wrong, don't get an abortion. The only thing pro lifers are really doing is trying to get legislation passed to reduce our freedom just a little more.

reply to post by ALOTOFBS


it is "someone else" telling a baby in the womb what to do.

I need you to die. they tell the child.
They say, I do not care what choice
you are making, have been making,
I choose for you to be killed.

The baby does not, repeat not want to die.
From the moment of conception onward it has 100 % been choosing to live.

reply to post by slugger9787


"A NATURALIST which includes atheism, agnosticism, secular humanism, existentialism, nihilism, Marxism, New will say about abortion: "It is fine, due to we are POND SCUM, and the foetus is a blob of unwanted growth."
A POLYTHEIST which includes Hinduism, Mormonism, Neo-Paganism, Wicca, will say that the decision is up to the woman due to all morals being relative.
A PANTHEIST which includes Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, New Age Consciousness, is that it is up to the woman as morals are relative.
A PANENTHEIST, FINITE THEIST, DEIST, and THEIST will generally say choose LIFE."

Is that so? I just love it when people claim to know my mind and what I will say. What I really say is that people like you may have autocratic or theocratic tendencies, are likely repressed and most likely to have no more than a high school education.

Im with newlyawakened. I think that abortion should be legal only if the person aborts immediately. The time span for the availability for abortion I'm not sure of yet. If this was a law it would help both sides.

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by ALOTOFBS

 

it is "someone else" telling a baby in the womb what to do.

I need you to die. they tell the child.
They say, I do not care what choice
you are making, have been making,
I choose for you to be killed.

The baby does not, repeat not want to die.
From the moment of conception onward it has 100 % been choosing to live.

You mean from the moment the brain develops? Because from the moment of conception to cca 4 months it cannot choose anything, the act of choosing is facilitated by nervous system, which is nonexistent at the time.

Pro life. Pretty simple way. Unless you were raped, your body and choice were to have sex.

Not to mention the whole brain argument. is a fallacy seeing as the human brain is not special until a long time after birth.

Originally posted by Gorman91
Pro life. Pretty simple way. Unless you were raped, your body and choice were to have sex.

Not to mention the whole brain argument. is a fallacy seeing as the human brain is not special until a long time after birth.

What do you mean by "special"?
Functioning human consciousness deserves protection, even if its not completely developed to maturity, since that time comes long after the birth. But embryo does not have ANY consciousness, not even a partially developed one. Thats the point.

Just as brain death marks the medical end of human persons life, the begining of functioning brain should mark the begining of human persons life. Simple as that.

If abortion is no big deal, just another procedure, just removing a cyst, a bit of tissue, than what is the big deal? Why bring up the subject at all? We don't agonize over having a a pair of tonsils cut out, right? We don't wring our hands and rip out our hair over an appendix removal do we?

I am a woman, I've been in both situations ; abortion - ruined my life .
Adoption I had so many good things happen when I gave her to the parents,
both had Degrees in Education. And I can tell you that abortion is never the right way to go.

Abortion Hurts Women!

Abortion = 1 dead, 1 wounded for life.

This is a pro-woman, pro-life, pro-men, pro-family issue. An abortion involves many more folks than a pregnant woman and an abortionist.
You must take into consideration the best interest of the child's life, the father, and other family members that may have an interest in this new child. Also the children that are already born are going to find out eventually that mommy killed my little brother or sister. She didn't want him and he was killed. Why wasn't I killed? What if she wants to kill me sometime?

The father and his family have an equal interest in this child. He provided his half of the procreation of a new life. He is half responsible. Having children is so special that it allows two people to create with God! This is the only time we can truly create something with God! A new person, something that has never been created before! A truly unique person! And we humans go against this at our own peril. The bond between mother and child is the strongest bond that is known.

Back to topic. If you were going to have an invasive surgical procedure, wouldn't you check the credentials of the surgeon at the very least? You have extensive research when you buy a home or a car.
These are your children!
There are lots of small clinics that are un-licensed (you must have a license to cut hair, drive a car, catch fish etc.), but anyone who wants can set up the abortion chamber can do so!. They are not inspected or regulated. One botched abortion where the woman died happened at an acupuncture clinic!

Please,please when you ask (like your computer) "Do you really want to delete this file forever"?
Think it over for awhile.

reply to post by pajoly


check the grammar in the sentence oh bachelor of science
What I really say is that people like you may have autocratic or theocratic tendencies, are likely repressed and most likely to have no more than a high school education.

Remember what Forest Gumps mom told him .................Stupid is as stupid does.

Nevermind

reply to post by TokiTheDestroyer


I too am pro-choice. I choose to have my coffee with cream and sugar. I do believe there are some things that should not be left to choice. This is why I am not in favor of child rape or beating your wife to death.

Ever wonder why the Pro-Death crowd always claim they are Pro-Choice? It just isn't nce to say, "Yeah, I'm all for ripping unborn children to shreads, then sucking them out of the womb with a powerful vac and flushing what is left of an innocent baby down the sewer". Nope, gotta say Pro-Choice so it "sounds good and acceptable".

Nuf Said.

reply to post by Annee


fanastic
good of you to refrain on expressing your strongly, wrongly held opinions.

Exactly how is a foetus ABORTED?

1. Inject very strong salt water into the amino sac and the salt burns the baby's tender skin off their body. Do not think the nervous system is operating, I could give you a couple of websites to watch the foetus silently scream.

2. Invade the womb with a very strong vacuum which sucks off the hands, feet, arms, legs, pulls the trunk in half, and finishes by suctioning the remains of the human out into the cannister.

3. Insert wire into the womb and scrape the baby who is clinging to the wall of the womb, thereby severing the atachment that gives the baby oxygen and blood.

We would put in prison someone who killed a puppy or a kitten in this manner, but we use our tax money to do this to our own human offspring?

I can understand some reasons for having an abortion, those ones must be a gut wrenching decision.

For other reasons mainly because of bad choices regardless...chopping a living forming baby into little pieces with a a variety of butcher(surgery) tools and then vacuum them out of the mother is an abhorrent process.
It's a vial choice in too many cases(not all), it's a putrid act by mother/father/doctor...