Satan and Science, His Creation to Mislead

reply to post by jennybee35


I cant believe, someone that believes in God...thinks that the design and events going on dont have some deeper purpose for Thee and what is to happen.

I know you want to think none of this world was meant to be this way...but it would not be, if God would not of allowed it to happen, so it must, have purpose....Thee must of, needed us to learn through trials and errors.

If Thee is perfect, then what ever is happening, if perfect for Thee's plan.

Originally posted by jennybee35
I can't help but believe that this is all just a moot argument. If Adam and Eve had never taken it upon themselves to rebel against Father God, not one medical issue would ever have arisen. There would be no cancer, no starvation, no dreaded and terrible disease at all. Everyone would have a perfect, indestructible body, maybe completely unlike the one we have to wear for now!

One could argue that by giving us Free Will and not preventing us from taking part in behaviour that brought these things, God was negligent towards the welfare of His creations. Also, if things were perfect before then why was the Tree of Life put there? Why was there a need to allow for the chance for His creations to take part in behaviour God would not approve of?

It was that first sin of rebellion that caused everything that followed, right up until this very moment. And just look around you, that SAME CHOICE is still being made by mankind today. It shows, too. Just look at the increase in all diseases and famines, and all other terrible things. A direct case of cause and effect.

Sin and rebellion are concepts that derive from God - the Creator of all things. Diseases, Famines and ALL other terrible things could be stopped by God. He is aware they exist and he decides not to stop them. Why does God not stop these things?

We never learn, no matter the misery brought about by our own rebellion.

Religious people experience pain and suffering. Why are those who follow His word still prone to misery?

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Where to even begin?! So, it is God's fault that we cannot make the right choices? He created the first of their kind in Adam and Eve. They were to be perfect specimens, with a free will to make their own choices. Those choices included NOT choosing rebellion. To me, it is no different than having your own child and giving them the choice to do as they will. Do you remove everything in that child's path that might cause it pain, suffering or stumbling? You raise that child and teach it the difference between right and wrong, and allow it to make the choices for itself, after you have made sure that your wisdom has been given to help it determine the best choices for a full, happy life. God did the same with His first perfect specimens. He came to them daily and walked with them. They KNEW God personally, yet could not overcome their own sinful rebellion. That is not a fault of God's. That is a fault of mankind.

God does not stop these terrible things because they are all still a direct result of mankind's choices, from the first act of rebellion to today. We refuse to acknowledge Him as our God, and continually harden our hearts to Him and His call to our souls. Even in your own post, you directly throw a challenge at Him. You express your disdain and rebellion towards Him with every word. Now imagine that rebellion times billions. That is what God sees when He looks upon us. We lost our ability to love our Creator millenia ago, and still conciously choose to reject Him. God does not cause the terrible things that happen. He may ALLOW them to continue, because we made the choice to rape and pillage the earth with everything form strip mining to nuclear testing. Yes, our own greed for material things has eaten away at earth's ability to protect us. If that first act of rebellion had not occured, we would have a perfect world. But instead of coming to the realization that we MUST be true to our Creator, we snub our noses at Him and tell Him "I'll have no God!"

Religious people? What has religion got to do with Almighty God? That concept has been created to control masses and sway politics, amass wealth and punish humankind through the millenia. God did not create "religion". Man did. That right there lets you know why it can never lead you to the true Creator. Those people that spout religion are just using another concept to cover their rebellion. Unfortunately, they use His name to obscure their real agenda. That is why people believe that they are actually followers of the Almighty, and why they have been able to wield His name as a punishing rod for so long.These so-called followers of His word are not following His word. They have made up their own set of rules and regulations to suit their agenda. Some may have fooled themselves into believing that they are doing His will, but as long as they are allowing other men to tell them what God has said, they are doomed to failure.

If you are seeking the true Creator, you must first forget EVERYTHING that men have taught you about who He is. That is very long, arduous process. The only way to come to know the true God is to let Him guide and teach you. If you rely on other men for your ideas of Father God, you are already lost. They will always have their own agenda to fulfill.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


God, the Prime Creator is not the same being as the God of most religious scriptures. The Creator is much bigger, grander and his/her greatness cannot be fathomed until we become ONE with him/her again. He is the creative force who created the original ones and directed them to create. They created lesser beings who where instructed to also create. And on and on. So the creator Gods of this world are far down the heavenly hierarchy, so to speak. At some point darkness and light separated. Each is needed to support the other in balance. We are temporarily out of balance presently and a correction is being made. So obviously the Creator has been paying attention, but he doesn't micromanage. He has ordered the appropriate subordinates to correct the imbalance. This will occur, soon. Whatever power that is needed to achieve the correction will be made available, no more, no less. So obviously any opposing force will be easily overcome. I think it's rather like a creation school and we are all nearing graduation time. Whole classes will be graduating. Those who pass will move to the next higher dimension.

reply to post by HUMBLEONE


What God are you referring to here? There are many Gods with many names.
I can chose one for you to like and have the others that are similar in backup.

It is better that science and religion unite and together solve the problems of the world.

There is no inherent conflict between science and religion.

For if God is God then he is the greatest and first scientist

Re Jennybee35

You wrote:

"Those choices included NOT choosing rebellion. To me, it is no different than having your own child and giving them the choice to do as they will. Do you remove everything in that child's path that might cause it pain, suffering or stumbling?"

You have some mighty peculiar ideas about upbringing, making me wonder if you ever were a parent yourself, and in that case, if your children survived it. Any sensible parent would either instill a sense of discipline in a child without 'free will' ("concerning this, you do as I say") alternatively remove the dangers from the surroundings.

Badly chosen methaphors seems to be in vogue these days.

You wrote:

"......We refuse to acknowledge Him as our God,...."

Maybe because he isn't, what he pretends to be, but only a wanna-be semi-deity who's surfing ideologically on the consequences of his own miserable handiwork. That is .... if he really is the universe-creator (which doesn't automatically makes him 'ultimate god'), and not only a kind of dark lord filling out a convenient niche by scaring the natives into submission.

You spurn organised religion. So do I. But how did you arrive at this astounding knowledge of 'god' and his ways and means? Surely not through a book, which is the outcome of much bitter inter-christian secterian disputes as to its interpretation and how it should be edited. Or do you possess special esoteric methods giving you direct access to an understanding of genesis and how it's incompatible with most other contemporary knowledge mankind has, and still being 'true'.

The whole Jahveh thing is about grovelling and blindly obeying. Otherwise he'll have one of his fits, as promised in OT (which you maybe have a sugarcoated explanation of).

reply to post by bogomil

Any sensible parent would either instill a sense of discipline in a child without 'free will' ("concerning this, you do as I say")

Is that not exactly what He has done? What are all the laws and commandments, then? How many places did He say "Do as I say". And every time it is for one's own benefit. Just as any parent does, because He LOVES you. It's your choice to go ahead and do the wrong thing anyway.

Wow. Attacking my parenting skills. Really don't have anything to say about that, except that yes, I have three children. A college student, a high school freshman and one in pre-k. Maybe you feel better about yourself now.

I can see that you have been terribly abused by religion at some point. For that I'm sorry. I grew up in religion also, but I was lucky enough to have been exposed to family that realized there was only one way to know the true Father God. Those lessons were passed down thru generations, even though we had some indoctrination in the church. It has been a very long, hard-fought battle to rid myself of even the small amount of false doctrine that I was taught in "church". It is a very subtle, destructive thing.

I would never claim some esoteric knowledge that I don't have. I simply have learned to open my heart and soul and let God teach me. I never realized that you could hear Him so clearly until I finally shut up and just listened. All the things you need to know can be learned directly at His feet. I first had to admit that I was completely lost as to who the real Gos was. Not one thing that is taught by men is true. They have lied, obfuscated and perverted the truth until it is a mockery of what is real.

All the anger and contempt you feel toward Him are a result of manipulation by men. If you really are ever interested in knowing the true God, just ask Him. He is always waiting to reveal Himself to a truth-seeker, which I think you are. All He wants is a heart that is looking to receive truth. Try it, it could change your life.

reply to post by jennybee35


You "opening hour heart to God" isn't any different than some beduin sacrificing a goat in the desert. You're doing it for the same reasons, and both of you have ZERO credible proof that would support your actions or make them seem logical.

Religions have a loot of good messages such as "thou shall not kill". If religious people would focus on that, rather than focusing on "going to church ever sunday to compare clothes", or "kill all infidels", or "don't eat pork"...all would be good. Sadly, a large part choses to take things literally, trying to force the viewpoints of people who lived 2000 years ago on modern men. THIS IS WRONG!

That's exactly why we should tell children to listen to the base message (be kind, etc.), but laugh at people who talk about the "mark of the beast" when microchips are mentioned, or that Harry Potter is "an enemy of god". It makes religious people look VERY stupid and detached from modern society.

Children should learn the difference between blind belief (aka believing women were created from a rib and there's talking snakes) and the good parts like "be kind". But if you go to a large majority of Christian/Muslim churches, that's not the message you get. You get crazy evangelists who don't believe in evolution yet buy DVD's of some money-hungry priest because they seriously believe he has a special connection to a super deity we have no proof for. Or people blowing themselves up because they believe they get dozens of virgins that way.

If you take a 2000 year old book literally, and teach that to your children, you are an IDIOT and yes, you are brainwashing a helpless child with your nonsense. If you use religion as a means to teach your kid the difference between good and evil, fine...but don't try to sell off religion as "truth" or "fact"...it just makes you look incredibly stupid given the modern times we live in.

Re Jennybee35

Anybody who has had the least contact with pauline 'christianity' is aware, that it's about obedience and hierarchial authority. This has been clearly demonstrated for 2000 years now.

Trying to make it look better with cosmetically adding 'free will' and 'divine love' only accentuates the basic hoax, and if you'd read my text instead of twisting it, you would have noticed, that I put up authority as incompatible with 'free will'.

"You have free will, as long as you do what I want".

Maybe this is logic to someone used to blind faith, but outside the holy bubble it's considered nonsense.

In spite of your imagined insight on my background, I can tell you, that I grew up in a perfectly sane liberal family and that none of your priests ever has had his grabby hands close to my plumbing system.

I simply just don't like fascistic ideologies of any kind.

reply to post by bogomil


I really don't think that you read a single word that I wrote. I'm sorry you didn't take the time to realize what was written.

reply to post by MrXYZ


I have never and will never claim to have proof of my belief. By it's very nature belief is not a tangible thing, therefore unproveable. As for the rest, I don't think you realize what I wrote either.

Originally posted by jennybee35
reply to post by bogomil

 

I really don't think that you read a single word that I wrote. I'm sorry you didn't take the time to realize what was written.

He never does, lol. Don't let it get you down, though, just realize that he'll never provide any answers to your questions, beyond just throwing back another opinion.

Originally posted by bogomil
"You have free will, as long as you do what I want".

You know, I'm not really sure what you don't get out of this -- free will is the ability to make decisions freely. But to grant free will is not to acquiesce to evil -- there are still ramifications to your actions. You want to do what you want, you're free to do so. But don't expect that nothing will come of it.

By your logic, we don't live in a free society, because we put thieves and murderers in prison, right?

God tells you what you need to do to be right by him, but no one forces you to do it. Obviously, since you choose not to. But if Christians are correct, you will stand before him in judgement, and he's going to give you exactly what you've asked for, what you've tried to convince others to ask for -- existence apart from him.

So you make your decision of your own free will, and you live with the ramifications of it. What's unjust about that?

reply to post by adjensen


Yeah, I know you're right about never getting a real answer. I won't say "I give up", but there does come a point when I realize that there are those who aren't really seeking answers, but seeking a fight.

So you make your decision of your own free will, and you live with the ramifications of it. What's unjust about that?

Because they still have the need to blame God for their own decisions. It's not enough for Him to repeatedly warn them of the consequences of their rebellion. They also want Him to take their personal responsibility away, too. That way, nothing is their fault, cause He let them do it! Silly, isn't it?

reply to post by adjensen


hmmm....there is a huge issue here with this explanation of 'free will' and judgement.

The Divine design will allow all souls to come to Thee, to reach the perfect prime image that the Monad has already made for us all. It already is...we are just climbing and falling to get there.

Its not so much judgment as in something outside of you will judge you....but more YOUR OWN SELF seeing through the divine eye of IAM will KNOW what you have done, will KNOW why things of flesh caused you to do certain things over the life of Spirit and you will UNDERSTAND why you did those things, the IAM within you will understand, and be waiting, for you to continue to learn, and will be patient, will keep guiding, keep picking you up, keep helping you sift out WHO YOU TRULY ARE.

So there is only free will to a point really.

It is more like....can you look in the mirror and deny that its yourself looking back at you? What if to keep denying that its yourself there...you will not be allowed to leave from looking into that mirror. What if the only way to leave from looking into that mirror is to SEE YOURSELF THERE.

You dont have free will to leave the mirror....but you have the free will to decide how long you will deny yourself. Eventually, time and experience will lead you to admit to your core being in that mirror and deal with what ever the purpose is of you being made to stand there.

I have no free will to just step out of this body. I have no free will to say 'today, the ones I call my parents are not the ones that gvae birth to me'. I have no free will to deny the world around me, if I open my eyes, its still there.

All things are here, as a mirror, for us to look into and see something. You might be able to turn away from the mirror...but as soon as you peak around again to see if its still there, tada, its still there waiting.

We can only buck like horses for so long...the design is to awaken all...for the IAM is within us all. Since Thee is perfect, the result will be perfect. To doubt this is lack of faith in what is Divine and Holy.

reply to post by jennybee35


We were meant to rebel....dont you see. It is the only way we learn personal responsibility.

You can not skip the steps of childhood or adolescences.

The orders and cycles all around you show you, there has been no mistake and we were never meant to just 'obey' like robots do.

Through our own will, are we to awaken to what we are a apart of. As one starts to look within, they can find their truest self, the Holy Spirit, the life therein, the light of God.

Just like a junkie, we are hooked on this world and the experience of being 'individuals'.

We all must come to the cross and decide if we are gong to hung up our earthly personality and things of flesh....to live for things of Spirit. We all must do this, no one can do it for us. It just so happens, someone showed us the way and showed us, its possible, we can....and ever do better things he said.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Thanks for the perspective, but it isn't what I believe, so we go on our separate paths.

You seem to be confusing free will for omnipotence. Free will is the freedom to make decisions, nothing more. If I wish to decide to fly, I have free will to make that decision. However, this does not enable me to fly -- the physical limitations of reality prevent it, but they are of no impediment to my free will.

To say "I don't have free will to step out of this body" is an incorrect statement -- you do, indeed, have the free will to make such a decision, but it's up to you to figure out how to follow up on your decision and actually make it happen. Free will only empowers the decision, it doesn't enable the subsequent action (which is the counter to the argument made that God, in granting free will, became responsibility for all the evil in the world.)

This thread is turning into a disappointing display of two very differing Mind Sets (while also bringing forth some interesting and unique perspectives from certain members).

The one mindset wants to use reason, logic and experience to understand why an omni-X God gave life to certain creations knowing in advance what this would lead to. This mindset wants to understand why Free Will can exist in a world where all one's decisions are predetermined by this omni-X being's simple act of creating.

The other mindset wants to invent excuses on behalf of an omni-X God to explain why many, many millions of God's creations have suffered pain and misery and why God does not put a stop to this. This mindset wants to believe that it is the collective fault of Mankind that is to blame for all these things; the rebellion of our ancestors has doomed us to paying for their sins.

I enjoy discussing these things and I am very aware and accepting of the fact that people will have opinions that are different to my own and this does not necessarily make them right or wrong. But this does seem in a sense to be a pointless debate.

God set the rules of physics, of chemistry, of all science. Why should the religious fear science? God wants all people to understand it's creation. That is our greatest gift, and why it created us in their image.

Originally posted by adjensen
You seem to be confusing free will for omnipotence. Free will is the freedom to make decisions, nothing more. If I wish to decide to fly, I have free will to make that decision. However, this does not enable me to fly -- the physical limitations of reality prevent it, but they are of no impediment to my free will.

There might be a fine line between the two. Does God have Free Will? Do Humans have Omnipotence? If you answer "no" to either of those questions, then I'm afraid they are an impediment to your Free Will or God's. What is the point in making a decision about something that is impossible to achieve? (Should God consider creating a rock that is so heavy he is unable to lift it? If He does, can He be held responsible for any negatives that arise from that decision?)

To say "I don't have free will to step out of this body" is an incorrect statement -- you do, indeed, have the free will to make such a decision, but it's up to you to figure out how to follow up on your decision and actually make it happen. Free will only empowers the decision, it doesn't enable the subsequent action (which is the counter to the argument made that God, in granting free will, became responsibility for all the evil in the world.)

We are told our suffering is caused by using our Free Will incorrectly. We are told that to correct this we should use our Free Will correctly. If we use our Free Will correctly (do things that make God happy) we will stop suffering. But is this true? Why do bad people find fortune and praise while good people find poverty and condemnation? Why can suffering be explained by rebellion against God's word but prosperity cannot be explained by conforming to God's desires?