not sure where to post this...

Originally posted by DarkHelmet
That's the stuff they don't show you on tv. They show it on that Al-Jazeera station though.

People have no idea how many lives have been destroyed. You wonder why the Arab world hates the west?

I personally think it's important that people see the true cost of the War on Terror. Yes the iraqis had it bad under Saddam, but now they have it bad under the coalition. So what has changed? It's mostly innocents that die / are dying in either case.

Great work justyc. I found that moving.

After all the spin, re-spin, info and mis-info we're fed daily, it's important to remember that men, women and children are dying at our (the coalition's)hands.

No wonder they hate us.

I ask myself what would I do if my country were invaded and everybody around me, including my children, were killed?

Thanks for "helping" Iraq America. Way to go.

we're doomed and if there is a god, he'll make us pay

Just checked it out. The mechanics of the flash show are nice, Good Work just.

Content however is really inflamatory.

Blood on the camera.....who's blood?

Crowd scenes....protest of occupation or cheering after learning of the planes hitting WTC?

Birth defects.....come on?

Swaztika's on the American flag.....ok I'll give you that one.

News anchors, is that supposed to be a juxtoposition between the destitute Iraqiis and the decadent americans. Don't blame the messengers, they're just simple pawns anyway.

The carrier with F@#K IRAQ, spelled out by servicemen, wasn't that proven to be fake.

I find these little videos to be very disturbing. Content in anything can be molded to produce any bias that one wants.

*puts two cents worth in*

nyarlathotep - lets start with depleted uranium. Its radioactivity isnt the main problem - its toxicity however is & is harmful when ingested, not so harmful when just touching the skin. When blown up into tiny particles its very easy to be dispersed around & in a dry & dusty place like Iraq you can imagine the problems that would cause. Yes, I am well aware of the deformities in children born from soldiers who were exposed during the gulf war, but as I said, their exposure was brief compared to having to live with it daily. If you are aware of the soldier's illnessess & their children's deformities then why do you think it would affect Iraqi people less than them?
several DU articles for your perusal -
www.idust.net...

www.independent-media.tv...

www.commondreams.org...

www.miltoxproj.org...

traprockpeace.org...

www.converge.org.nz...

now - "I like that this is the only point I brought up that you chose to refute. Nothing about the photoshopped upside book or the fact that you used pictures from the freakin Afghan war. I iamgine that was unjustified as well. I suppose that going after Bin Laden is unjustified because GWB OK'd the 9/11 attacks, right"

Your right, i perhaps shouldnt have used a photoshopped image to portray how stupid Bush is. I could have added some classic 'quotes of his' like...

"There is no such thing necessarily in a dictatorial regime of iron-clad absolutely solid evidence. The evidence I had was the best possible evidence that he had a weapon."

or

"You're free. And freedom is beautiful. And, you know, it'll take time to restore chaos and order?order out of chaos. But we will."?Washington, D.C., April 13, 2003

We need an energy bill that encourages consumption."?Trenton, N.J., Sept.
23, 2002

or "And so, in my State of the?my State of the Union?or state?my speech to the nation, whatever you want to call it, speech to the nation?I asked Americans to give 4,000 years?4,000 hours over the next?the rest of your life?of service to America. That's what I asked?4,000 hours." ?Bridgeport, Conn., April 9, 2002

or

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"
-Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000

"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test.'' -George W. Bush, Feb. 21, 2001

"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating."
-U.S. News & World Report, April 3, 2000

or that classic ....

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier...just as long as I'm the dictator..."

The war in Afghanistan - hmmm, now theres a tough 1. I dont suppose you have ever studied the geography of the area have you? I mean really study it - like look at various types of maps to see why Afghanistan was strategic if you were perhaps lets say for example, planning to build an oil pipeline that would stretch all the way up to the west and the countries it would have to pass through. Because if you were planning to build such a pipeline then you would have to invade yet another country to allow it to go into Pakistan (if it wasnt for that tiny bit of Afghanistan that sticks out & borders onto Pakistan). Lets say you wanted in the future to get oil out of China to Europe? Would it not be a more technical nightmare to go up through Mongolia & Russia and across to Europe (if you look at a geological map) or build an almost straight pipeline all the way up to, lets say, the Caspian Sea? This makes an interesting read - www.wsws.org... & lets mention the heroin production there. ist-socrates.berkeley.edu...

As for Bin Laden - the US could have had him several times but chose not to - never wondered why? & Bush's prior knowledge of 9-11? Maybe I just ask different questions to the one the commitee set up to investigate it have.

I can go into that one another time as this post is getting too long lol.

Finally, 'Lies to make Bush look bad' - I dont have to lie about Bush to make him look bad - he's remarkably capable of doing that job himself!

Nice retort justyc, well written

Justyc, it is obvious that we don't see eye to eye on this matter. I guess I'm what you'd call a staunch patriot and it will sometimes blind me to other people's entitlement to their point of view.

I think that we should concentrate on what we do now. I will agree with you that the Iraq situation in a huge cluster**ck. It certainly won't do us any good to argue why we went to Iraq, we're there.

We need to worry about how to get the hell outta there and fast. I peronally think that we should have gone to Iraq regardless of WMD's, reagardless of supposed Al Qaeda ties. Remember why we went in '91. Iraq invaded Kuwait. Iraq with it's own oil reserves AND Kuwait's would give Iraq a huge percentage of those reserves and that is dangerous.

It would have been a matter of time before Hussein attempted another such invasion and he had to be ousted. That is my opinion and you are entitled to yours as well and I guess I'll just leave it at that.

If I got personal (I don't think I did, but as I said before I get blinded), then I am sorry for that.

BTW, for just learning flash, I thought is was pretty good.

I peronally think that we should have gone to Iraq regardless of WMD's, reagardless of supposed Al Qaeda ties.

....(shaking my head)... I certainly hope this isn't a common viewpoint in your country. I really hope not.

Originally posted by Durden
I certainly hope this isn't a common viewpoint in your country. I really hope not.

Even if it is what do you intend to do about it?

More importantly what does the world intend to do about it?

The US can go around projecting its power at will and there isnt that much the ROTW can do about it.

Originally posted by Durden
....(shaking my head)... I certainly hope this isn't a common viewpoint in your country. I really hope not.

Why? You are aware of what Hussein has done in the past, right? Are you aware of the atrocities he has pepetrated against the Kurds? Do you know how many innocent women and children he killed by using biological weapons? This man has proved himself to be a dangerous leader.

Durden, read this
Read the whole thing and then tell me what you think of going to Iraq just to oust Hussein. Or do you think more along the line of "If it's not happening in my country, who cares"?

[edit on 6-22-2004 by nyarlathotep]

echosounder - the camera was meant 2 represent the journalists that have been killed bcos i think peeps tend 2 forget them 2 quickly. They risk their lives daily to show the world something they may never see & some pay the highest price of all for their stories & photographs.

content - just my thoughts on how i see things - you have the right to disagree with them

crowd scenes - who knows where the photographs were taken except the photographer because i have seen photographs claiming to be crowds cheering what happened on 9-11 that turned out to have been taken several years earlier. Truth is a hard thing to come by in the media sometimes as the fake Mirror pics show.

Birth defects - they exist in areas where depleted uranium has been used & those soldiers exposed to it briefly to a greater or lesser extent depending on the exposure. Coincidence or cover-up?

Swastikas on the American flag - sure to inflame some citizens of the US but I would ask them this - in the 2nd world war, who would they have supported? www.lpdallas.org...

the news media - www.constitution.org...
the rare times i do see uk tv news ( i dont own a tv & never will) it seems more concerned with celebrity gossip, trivia & sport. tv has gone drasticly downhill and is rarely educational anymore imho. still, some people are easily entertained, so much so that they will watch the same game shows for years. is that all there is to life now?

F@#K IRAQ carrier photo - fake or not, it displays the sentiments of some people that i have talked to towards the Iraqis who, lets face it, have done nothing wrong to the American people & yet they still hate them. Sad.

Yes, I find them very disturbing too, but what i find more disturbing is the amount of people who bury their heads in the sand and really dont care whats going on it the world or its future. Do we really learn nothing? Or do we just not care anymore?

The newest member of the Michael Moore fan club.
Why is anyone wasting time discussing a fabricated piece of editorialising?

I am surprised Rwanda and south Detroit pictures weren't in there.

War bad. We get it.

Originally posted by justyc
F@#K IRAQ carrier photo - fake or not, it displays the sentiments of some people

All the same you are misrepresenting the truth and thats never good.

You would have a lot more credibility if you hadnt lifted pictures of the Afghan War, West Bank, and airborne press releases for American Military Aircraft.

Oh and the swearing isnt too cool either around here.

me bows to nyarlathotep. whilst we may not agree on some things, you at least considered what i had to say. you have my respect

Originally posted by justyc
me bows to nyarlathotep. whilst we may not agree on some things, you at least considered what i had to say. you have my respect

Thank you for the kind words. You have mine as well.

Originally posted by Agent47

All the same you are misrepresenting the truth and thats never good.

Someone tell me the truth. Is Bush representing the truth? Is the mainstream media? Is the Internet?

You appear aggressive, perhaps because of your fierce patriotism..?
There's nothing wrong with America and Americans, you have much to be proud of.
I see everything wrong with the Bush Administration though, He's selling you all down the river.

nyarlathotep, you don't have to send me links to convince me of the fact that a great number of human rights-laws have been broken under Saddam's leadership in Iraq.

Now do you think this gives the US the right to totally go against the UN Security Council (pretty much the rest of the world), act as world-police and singlehandedly attack Iraq? No it doesn't. Preventing things like this is the reason why UN was started in the first place.

I'm puzzled. First the US was attacked by members of Al Qaeda. Retaliation against Afghanistan begins. Then suddenly ol' dad's enemy Saddam was somehow behind this attack. Not only that; Iraq was building nuclear weapons to attack the free world. Hey, you gotta have the right to attack now, right? Yeah, sure pal, forget about what the rest of the world thinks; why even wait for evidence. Now, a good while later; still no evidence. Instead we're told this was an intelligence error. Now just trust me on this; that is not good.

And now, you're saying the obvious lack of credible evidence doesn't even matter anymore?

I'm hoping you're kidding. I really am.

Originally posted by Durden
nyarlathotep, you don't have to send me links to convince me of the fact that a great number of human rights-laws have been broken under Saddam's leadership in Iraq.

Now do you think this gives the US the right to totally go against the UN Security Council (pretty much the rest of the world), act as world-police and singlehandedly attack Iraq? No it doesn't. Preventing things like this is the reason why UN was started in the first place.

I'm puzzled. First the US was attacked by members of Al Qaeda. Retaliation against Afghanistan begins. Then suddenly ol' dad's enemy Saddam was somehow behind this attack. Not only that; Iraq was building nuclear weapons to attack the free world. Hey, you gotta have the right to attack now, right? Yeah, sure pal, forget about what the rest of the world thinks; why even wait for evidence. Now, a good while later; still no evidence. Instead we're told this was an intelligence error. Now just trust me on this; that is not good.

And now, you're saying the obvious lack of credible evidence doesn't even matter anymore?

I'm hoping you're kidding. I really am.

Where did I say the lack of crediblle evidence doesn't matter? Please point it out to me.

No I am not kidding, what now? Will you lose sleep because someone cares what happens in other parts of the World? And yes, when horrible atrocities like that happens and the European community doesn't do jack, yeah, that gives the US the right to do what they seem fit. I guess that happens when you are the big kid on the block.

So I guess it's OK to let these horrible attacks against his own people should just be handled by whom? By the Iraqi's? Do we continue to let it happen? Maybe where you're from that's is the norm and accepted as OK.

Where I'm from, the best country in the World, The United States of America, we don't like to see things like that happen and watch as the World community turns a deaf ear.

Just continue to make your jabs against the US, but let's face it, all you can do about it is bitch and whine.



Edit: BTW, the US did not singlehandedly attack Iraq. Gt your facts straight. Last time I checked, England, Australia and South Korea were invloved too. How does that make us the only one? Just because where you may be from is a spineless country unwilling to help police the World, doesn't mean the other countries are willing to let it happen.

I love how how you use gross inaccuracies to prove a point.

[edit on 6-22-2004 by nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by manc4
Someone tell me the truth. Is Bush representing the truth? Is the mainstream media? Is the Internet?

Im agressive because I like to see factual discussion and I dont think misrepresenting images of the West Bank conflict as Iraqi suffering is very factual. I may or may not be patriotic and I agree that in this day and age everything has its own spin on it. However images do come from certain places and this you cant spin. You cant spin a picture of Afghanistan bombing raids into images of Iraqi attrocities.

Agent47 - if you would care to point out which pics exactly r from the west bank conflict then i shall gladly remove them (after verifying they are what u claim them to be) and replace them with something of equal picturesque value from verified pics from Iraq. Perhaps you would even be so kind as to provide me with some pics of airplanes bombing Iraq so I can use them also. I shall, however, keep the Afghanistan pics as it is my personal opinion that that both wars are linked. If only it were so easy for the US Government to correct it's mistakes. No, swearing isnt that cool but then neither is wars based on lies, torture, apathy, ignorance & above all, people who can only make pathetic digs instead of reasoned argument.

Manc4, I agree - the world owes a lot to America & they have made amazing achievements which we should be thankful for but that doesnt excuse that their government has also done bad things. I am not bashing America or Americans which is why i included pics that show what the soldiers there are facing & the horror & tragedy of the ones who have died alongside the grief of their families.

nyarlathotep - i think the term 'patriot' appears to have 2 different meanings at the moment and what most people appear not to realise is that your government & your country are two seperate things entirely. What type of society is it that we live in if we do not have the right to question our Governments actions without being labelled as unpatriotic or even a traitor? Is that really a free society?

crmanager - yes, i read one of micheal moore's books, downsize this, many years ago as it was given as a present to me. I have read many books & haven't necessarily agreed with all of them either. I am however, looking forward to his new film, which i assume you will not go and see because you already know what its about - all lies, to which i would say, watch it & then prove it to be so. As for Rwanda, dont you think what happened there was appalling? Then why did the world stand by & let it happen? Yes, Saddam killed many people years ago & that was terrible too but no-one did anything about that either. It was only when he dared to try and sieze another countries oil supply that the world got outraged. & answer me this - as he was such a bad guy, why was he not removed from power then?