Leggo My Ego

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Freud and his ego can kiss my libido!

S&F dog

I don't post often and my ego/superego tells me I don't have the intellect to post on this thread. Okay. One of them wants me to post anyway. The below best describes my understanding of id/ego/superego.

understanding I have of id/ego/superego

Our personality is made of up of three main interacting systems: id: This is present at birth. The id operates according to the pleasure principle i.e. it seeks pleasure and avoids pain. It is our instinct. If we want to do a particular thing we will do it. for example, if we are in a lesson and we want to go to sleep, we go to sleep.

ego: The ego has to decide between the demands of the id and the superego. It operates according to the reality principle. It controls the id's drive for immediate satisfaction until an appropriate outlet can be found. So, from the example of the id, above, the ego would say there is no bed here but I could lay on the table.

superego: the superego develops from the oedipus complex. This is the moral part of the personality; a product of socialisation. the super ego is divided into two parts; the ego-ideal and the conscience. the ego-ideal is the standards of good behaviour that we aspire to. the conscience is seen as an "inner voice" that tells us when we have done something wrong. depending on whether the ego-ideal or conscience is activated, The superego is seen as the source of rewards i.e. feelings of pride and satisfaction and of punishments i.e. feelings of shame or guilt, respectively. So again, continuing with the same example, your superego would say that you cannot possibly go to sleep in a middle of a lesson. The demands of the id ('I want it, I want it now') and the demands of the superego ('no it's wrong') frequently conflict.

The ego deals with this conflict by operating unconscious defence mechanisms.

So the ego is a balance between instinct and moral learning.

My problem is that I think some instinct is learned from past incarnations. I am a parent and have seen my children exhibit seeming instincts and understandings that belie their age...18 months.

Can instincts be learned from conditioning and be wrong? Can morals be learned from conditioning and be wrong?

So, in this understanding, it is the ego's job to recognize the source of these conditioning's and sort it out? This is not a bad thing if it is used for this purpose.

For instance, there was a time when I would compliment people to get in their good favor. With my current understanding, this was wrong. Pure manipulation to gain acceptance. Was that id, ego or superego?

Ouspensky, in speaking of Gurdjieff says we should observe ourselves, meaning we should observe our reactions/responses and why we do them. This to me seems to be the balancing of the id and superego.

I welcome thought but have no problem if no person speaks to this as it is bit out of the realm of discussion.

Sdog, always loved and appreciated your posts. As always, much food for thought. So glad I dropped in today for some enlightenment.

I have nothing against personal narratives. They are analogies or metaphors. Like the idea that fiction may hold more "truth" than a scientific treatise. My child's face is imprinted on my soul. I wouldn't want to discover it anew from moment to moment. My thoughts or habits of thinking may be shaped but are not relative.

Can "truth" be contained in symbols or analogies? If something is somewhat true is it close enough for "truth". To be without ego and "in the now" would manifest many of the attributes of schizophrenia or complete disassociation and result in the inability to provide the basic necessities for life and the inability to relate with other humans.

Let's just say these symbols of the mind are close to truth. These narratives or stories we tell ourselves guide our perceptions. The narratives can be wishful thinking or complete fabrications and yet even in the fabrication there is probably sound subjective emotional reasoning for the deception.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Bugger, I thought this thread was about Leggo and I like Leggo

Wow dude what did you do, read a library of phylosophys, if so what kind of snacks do you like chips or twinkies, both are good no doubt..... Ego, ID, superego, these are some of the construct's that the self uses to view and interpret reality with....My this or my that, is interpretation of facts, mostly of what was or will be My goal, My car, My political party, My doritos bag, ever notice that as soon as any "my anything" is achieved and brought into the present its no longer an issue....it is the egos job to search and compare the reality it is instructed by the "self" like a probe sent out into the unknown, "the past and the future"...the present simply "is" so therefore the ego does not see it, because it's but a tool...like your hand, you reach out to touch something, to identify it, to relate to it, you sense with it, and the mind brings it into being by way of what we all are "self" Myself, yourself, there is no weself or noself but in relation there is "ourselves". When anyone argues, there ego is doing it's job...it's trying to relate to "what is"...An impossible task, if you believe that ego is all "there is", the self sees all through it. So mister sdog, "if that is your real name". When you dEGOnstruction (ego deconstruction), you are also d EGO nstruction (the ego instruction) you instruct outward as the ego is instructed by the inward, so its deconstructed....but it still is. Those that say they got rid of there "ego" have reached there self in the present, but since the present is always changing, they are also full of it. Past, Present, Future, or if you prefer as the ancient greeks called there Necassity's for being, the three daughters of fate...The moerae... the first daughter/past wove the fabric of life...the second daughter/present measured the thread's of life...the third daughter/future cut the thred's of life...of those three only one can be known the present because you can measure it. It's funny how the concept's of life change with time, but most retain some paterns, derived from the past, by way of the present, leading to the future.

SD, you never cease to amaze.

I'm inclined to believe that being in your presence would somehow be enlightening.

But enough with the brown nosing.

First I'd like to congratulate every single member who has contributed to this thread. This is what ATS is, at it's core, and it should serve as a reminder to what our community is capable of when presented with such intense subject matter.

So it's safe to say that ALL of that was ego...(?)

It's very difficult for me to even formulate an opinion about the ego in the sense. It's something that we all must deal with constantly.

I think some give it less credit that deserved however. The "ego" is ever changing, shifting and one could say scheming to prevail at all turns.

And from the majority of today's society, in terms of values, spiritual understanding and behaviors, it's clear to me (my ego/id) that the "ego" is doing a very good job.

Truthfully that entire comment could be a defense mechanism concocted by my ego....

So, I don't think I have much of an opinion at this point. Just reading some of these replies has broadened my perspective. Some pondering must occur before a proper reply can be made.

~Keeper

ego.

linear thinking....

Fight or Flight, make the choice

"neither is an option"

Fight or Flight, choose!!!!
"neither is acceptable"

FIGHT OR FLIGHT!!! MAKE THE CHOICE!!!

“I can’t make that choice”

Fight or Flight, choose!
There was no choice to make…

Hell is an event.
It is 2006. I’m at Ballad air base outside Bagdad. I’m a firefighter in the usaf. I’m a crew chief of a T-3000 Aircraft Rescue Fire Fighting Apparatus (fire truck)
Akin to this one:
www.boisefiretrucks.com...
www.ci.el-paso.tx.us...

A clamshell structure:
media.vcstar.com...


Fight or Flight, choose!
There was no choice to make…

I’d been awake for more than a week. No sleep. We were busy every day.

It was a little before midnight. A clamshell was on fire. There was an aircraft in it. A chinook:
img.dailymail.co.uk...
actually, there were two chinooks in it.

There was about 15 feet between the two clamshells. Behind the flammable storage shed we discovered the flammable storage shed had no back wall whatsoever. We also discovered a dozen 55 gallon drums with jet fuel in them behind the shed. A hole had been burnt through the wall (thick canvas) of the clamshell.

Here is a rough diagram of the fire scene. It isn’t exactly to scale, but gives an idea of what the scene looked like (and i left alot of stuff that was inside the clamshell out of it:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b54aaeff0405.png[/atsimg]

fight or flight?

[edit on 2-9-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

What I am doing goes against all I had ever been trained for, and is the exact opposite of what I should be doing. I know better, I shouldn’t do this.
“the power isn’t off. Rescue crew has not turned off the electricity to the building yet. There is water and foam on the ground from our water turrets.

There were huge metal lockers blocking the water from hitting the fire through the hole in the side. There were 5 firefighters perched, huddled, over the 55 gallon drums of diesel (jp4&jp8) jet fuel.

Something within me told me to do it, keep going, through all the fire, and reach the far side of the fire inside. Too much radio traffic, but I told them I was making entry.
On Scene Commander: “stand by crash 10, power is still on”

I make entry, through the hole in the side. I reached the far side, my mask is steamed up, it is difficult to see. My hose is laying in water/foam but surrounded and burning in fire as well.

Crates are there, in fire, on fire, charred and already black. 6 crates of hellfire missiles. Two dozen crates of chaffs and flares. (no, i did not count them at the time. why? they are hellfire missiles, one is too many already)

We should not be here. We should evacuate. Hellfire missiles involved in fire, 4,000 feet radius. We should be 4,000 feet away. Standard operating procedure.

I’m spraying the crates down, I’m surrounded by fire almost all around. There is a lot of stuff in here. Flames 30 to 50 feet high. Arcs of electricity were coming down from the ceiling. Arcs of electricity are coming down from the ceiling. Cans of stuff, aerosol cans and stuff popping and exploding in the fire.

There are crates of hellfire missiles at my feet. Five of my closest friends are pushing the fire at me from the jet fuel they are protecting the fire from. They don’t know. Omg …. They don’t know. We can’t be here. We can’t get away fast enough. Fire everywhere. It is hot. I am tired.

I try to speak on the radio. Too much traffic, they are talking over eachother.

Pop! Am I still here? Did they explode?

“guys there are munitions in here”
“command, we have munitions. Hellfire missiles.”
“command, this is crash ten, hellfire missiles inside”

POP! Am I still here? Are we still here?
“command this is interior command, crash ten, we have hellfire missiles involved in fire, do you copy?”

Too much radio traffic. They don’t know.

Their hose patterns are pushing the fire straight at me, and I cannot push the fire at them. They do not know.

Fight or Flight, choose!
There was no choice to make…
BOOM! I’m still here. Spray paint can or something. But now I can’t hear anything.

I consult every cell of my being, what do I do? There is no damn training for this! They never covered this in any class.

Pop! “self preservation” …. Don’t need here. Can’t really fight, can’t really flight. Nowhere to run, and no time to do it.

I drop my radio.

Fight or Flight, choose!
There was no choice to make…

There is no me. There is no my. There are no options. There is no choice. There are no choices. Nothing to think about. We might already be dead. We do something new.


[edit on 2-9-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

Boom! Another aerosol can or something. We are still here. We are not afraid. Fear is absent this moment.
we spray the crates down, we make sure they are out. It is hot. Time is so very slow. Time slows down. Literally, time slows down??? The fire and flames are slower. That sure is neat.

we set our hose to fog pattern. we aim it at in front of our feet.
We start sweeping back and forth, back and forth in front of us. And we start moving forward, towards the firefighters who are leaning on the 55 gallon drums, pushing the flames at us.

We will meet in the middle.

I was wearing a crash firefighter suit, the aluminum foil metal looking kind.

Afterwards, after the fire was out, we were reserving the trucks, loading back up the hose, and we were overhauling the fire scene, clean up stuff.

I was getting yelled at for making entry prior to the electricity being shut off.
This is a big no no. this is a major safety issue. I couldn’t explain why I did it. Not at all. And I haven’t until this moment. I heard my voice in my head tell me: “we have to get in there now”. Am I crazy? Maybe, but I am alive, I think.
The five firefighters that were covering the jet fuel drums and two members from the rescue crew were telling me and the assistant chief (on scene commander) how I was being hit by blue arcs of electricity from the ceiling.
Seven eyewitnesses said it happened repeatedly, but I didn’t know it. I thought all those pops and booms were cans of things blowing up in fire. Some of them were me being struck. Standing in water, wearing metal.

That is when everyone became aware of how the munitions were involved in the fire, and what happened. My lineman, he didn’t follow me all the way in, he turned around, he said I just went through the fire dragging my charged line and not really spraying down the flames as I went further in.
When everyone found out what munitions were involved (not to mention they should not have been there at all, by orders), my fellow firefighters didn’t really know what to say that night. We were all tired. It does not not matter. Maybe I can sleep tonight I thought to myself.

I lit up a smoke while finishing up with putting the hose on the truck, and the army colonel in charge of that clamshell (actually in charge of half the base) came up to me and said:
“a firefighter who smokes? That can’t be healthy for you.”

I looked that man straight in the eyes and said:
“would you send your wife or children to a doctor who has no tolerance for blood? Would you send your children to a pool where the life guard on duty has no tolerance for water? I’m a firefighter, sir. This is job conditioning.”

When I got back to the station, about 3:00 am, and finally took my gear off.
The back of my coat had 2 charred areas consistent with electricity burn patterns, like where lighting strikes. i also had to get a new helmut, same reason.

Fight or Flight, choose!
There was no choice to make…

Firefighters cannot forget, we shall always remember
What happened within us on the eleventh of September.

firefighter's prayer

i know a little bit about not having an ego, if even for a brief moment in time. whatever "time" is .... it is something different without ego, or rather when ego is not in play.

I know the ego cannot die
But I cannot explain why


i let go of my ego more than once in my life.
service before self, the second core value of the usaf.
i was in for more than decade of my life.

thanks for this thread Sdog.
Leggo My Ego


Hope this helps,
et



[edit on 2-9-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

TheAssoc.
















Joking. Star and flag, interesting stuff.

Thank you for the thread. I just woke up and thought about the one who thought he just woke up. Then, in a splash of ego-centric fear, I thought that such 2-tier thinking would make me schizophrenic. To possess is to fear, that's all I can say.

I'll Hang on to Mine, Thanks

And here's why.

Id, Ego and Superego are Freudian fictions, although they conform roughly to our perceptions of how our brains work when dealing with conflicting stimuli. We don't need these terms, nor do we need the terminology of Asiatic religion, pop philosophy or New Age cultism to explain what we have to do to be comfortable in the world. We merely have to grow up--all the way up. That's all.

A newborn infant knows nobody and nothing but himself and his sensations. He has no concept of an external world that couldn't care less about his existence and demands. He cannot understand that there are other people in the world, whose own demands and desires are in conflict with his own.

Over time, as he grows through childhood and adolescence to adulthood, the infant learns the facts of life.

He discovers that total gratification is neither possible nor, in the long run, desirable. He learns the difference between what is good to have and what is only pleasurable. He learns that the world is full of danger and malice. He learns that reality--in all its guises, from the nostalgic power of floral scents to the strictures of gravity and the penal code--has got to be accommodated and manipulated. He learns, as best he can, how to do this.

He learns about other people and the endless, ever-pressing consequences of the fact that they exist. He learns to play--again, as best he can--the endless game of mutual manipulation that is human society.

He learns that there are no unalloyed blessings, no unmitigated curses. He learns that nothing is ever just as it should be. He learns that he must die.

And he learns, for better or worse, to live with and make the best of these realities.

The better he learns, the happier, or at any rate the less unhappy, he is.

Some never learn. Nature and nurture have failed them. They go to their graves still wanting, still demanding, still resenting, still singing along with George Harrison, 'I, Me, Mine.'

Most learn at least the bare minimum that will allow them to function in the world, but not successfully or happily. They are the ones at whom Schrodinger's Dog's advice is aimed. The advice is almost certainly wasted, for happiness and success depend ultimately on one's capacity.

A very few, fortunate enough to be born with that capacity, will learn enough to attain some mental quietude before lives come to an end.

Does any of this matter? Does it really make any difference at all? I wonder.

*

A word about Buddha, Christ, Krishnamurti and all the rest. They are merely emergency-exit ushers. Their ways are for those who find reality too much for their tender hearts and minds, or who have come to the end of striving. The solutions proposed by the gurus and god-men work, but they are all forms of self-delusion and self-harm. They all demand, as their price, the sacrifice of a greater or lesser part of one's humanity and potential.

There is no Id, there is no Ego, there is no Superego. There is just You--an automaton with delusions of consciousness, an ape with delusions of grandeur. Sitting in a lotus position and thinking noble thoughts may cure you of your spiritual colic, but it's unproductive and habit-forming. Not recommended for grown-ups.

Existence has become banal. You win! I bequeath the entire expanse of time and space to you all. Go! Pass the code of life to your onto descendants. Live, live, forever!

This thread grew overnight - I bet Sdog has now lot of chances to observe "ego" reactions

So much have been said that I do not know what to say. Thought of remaining silent but then I got this:

So many internetgurus out there, trying to repeat like parrots this indian metaphysics related new-age stuff they've learned from somewhere. Yet they seem to have completely misunderstood what is about. The students ruin the teacher and the teacher ruins the students.

The one tha claims that all this mundane life we experience is an illusion is the greatest of fools. There in fact are layers of illusion. Our thoughts about the nature of reality are illusion, our thoughts about motives of other people are illusions. Our thoughts about world being endagered is an illusion. Life itself is not an illusion - only our fanciful thought constructs, that may have constituted society and all that, may be illusion. But even that is real. The thought is real, even the most sick one. I'm a complete fool to say this, because I know that these words here betray the purpose of my meaning. I might be rejected, despised, appalauded and anything between.

Hence I say baibai. All the best for all of you

-v

"A feeling of aversion or attachment toward something is your clue that there's work to be done." - Ram Dass

Trying to avert the 'feelings of aversion or attachment toward something' by work is aversion and another manifestation of ego.

I say there is no work to be done. You will act. You may observe if you wish.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower...This is what ATS is, at it's core, and it should serve as a reminder to what our community is capable of...

Totally agreed.

That I find myself captivated by and agreeing with both S- dog's OP and Astyanax's post is nothing short of a mental and emotional roller coaster ride that requires a lot more navel noodling. And a good wine.

Originally posted by kosmicjack

Originally posted by tothetenthpower...This is what ATS is, at it's core, and it should serve as a reminder to what our community is capable of...

Totally agreed.

That I find myself captivated by and agreeing with both S- dog's OP and Astyanax's post is nothing short of a mental and emotional roller coaster ride that requires a lot more navel noodling. And a good wine.

Good. So i am not the only person here who is struggling to put them both into a mutually conclusive context?

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


It's just so weird that both are true and yet seem so opposed. How can they possibly be reconciled in a healthy way? I mean other than just not thinking about it too much? And really, when I think of the people that I know or have known who are most contented, they don't spend to much time pondering this sort of thing...

And still, I think about it.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


morning SD

:-)

what is this attachment to being unattached?



(look - I used an emoticon)

Originally posted by kosmicjack

It's just so weird that both are true and yet seem so opposed.

Actually not at all ... I shall explain after coffee.

But just as a hint ... what asty and a few others have touched on, the whole id, ego, superego, psychological construct has nothing to do with what I was touching upon. They just happen to use the same word 'ego.' Actually, it's a pretty good example of how the mind operates.

In any case ... coffee then satsang.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8eec852c096b.gif[/atsimg]

[edit on 2 Sep 2010 by schrodingers dog]