Is Yahweh really the prime creator?

Hi Memyself

I would like to thank you for the initiative you took by starting this thread and for your competent handling of information and material.

It's not often a thread survives the ten-day attention-span limit, but apparently this topic and its presentation have filled a specialised need in a small group. A forum thread is as dependant on its operative frame, as it is on the subject it debates.

Maybe now is the time to present a few off-topic, but relevant, thoughts.

Fundamentalists (of all kinds), and especially militant extremists, have already found their own absolutes, and combined with a black/white mindset they function from: "The aim justifies the means". Propaganda, clichées and predigested 'information' is dished out; sometimes twisted beyond recognition, sometimes even falsified. There are debate-methodologies meant to cast doubt on the credibility of opponents. "No smoke without a fire" etc.

Personally I can change gears to join the unavoidable dung-throwing from such a situation, but I prefer the following option:

At the other end of the spectrum there are individuals for whom 'truth' or 'reality' still haven't been formulated into fixed absolutes. As an individual I operate with approximate 'truths', I'm not temperamentally or doctrinelly bound by ultimate answers. Though I ofcourse lean more or less heavily in this or that direction.

On-topic again. I think Memyself has done an admirable job of presenting an approximate 'truth/reality', but I would like to analyse the basics of the theme of the thread. The (honourable) agenda here consists of two parts:

1/ What's the true nature of the territory ('reality')?

2/ How do we relate to it?

As is no secret, I agree with Memyself a long way, but I get off the train, when the theist proposition is brought into the 'map of the territory'. Consequently I also seek different answers to 2/ (how to relate to a supposed 'reality').

I do not have an almost manicheaen 'map' of good/evil, here presented as ultimate divine love/not-divine love (I hope, I'm not giving a mis-representation of it). While in no way opposing 'love' (divine or human), I do not give it the prominent position as THE pivot point. My position can be considered from two perspectives. a/ 'Love' (as mankind experiences it) is an expression of a basic existential principle, observed in manifested cosmos. It may sound cynical, when I in intellectual terms describe it as 'glue', but I do not intend this as a derogative description. b/ 'Love' is one of three such existential principles, with its own intrinsic 'qualities' and functions. 'Love' is not more or less important than the other two principles. What makes it so interesting for mankind is, that it is the mankind's 'weak link in the chain'.

Mankind seem to be able to handle intellect and practical matters fairly well. But we are rather lost, when it comes to 'love'. 'Love', this 'glue' meant to make existence relate, is PART of the big puzzle, and somehow it has been corrupted in the process of existence. Either in 'universal creation' or by human nature.

My suggestion is to approach this question from a pre-christian gnostic cosmogony and cosmology. The gnostic-christian hybrid has accentuated the 'love' aspect, while the basic theme of gnosticism was more on the line of 'error'. A totality (including 'love' as an equalent component) has been disrupted. The suggested answer in this hard-core gnostic 'map' is to re-assemble the fragments of the broken totality. 'Love' is only an especially difficult fragment, it's not THE ultimate single divine or cosmic factor.

I can examplify this 'map' with observations from manifested cosmos. And my involvement in the original gnostic 'map' isn't doctrinal. I just find it a rational expression of a bigger inclusive 'map'.

C'm on fellow weirdos. Don't disappoint me.

reply to post by memyself


My friend,

Your conclusion is beautiful. I dare not make any flaws in it, by contributing further. Well done.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by memyself could it be possible that the israelites mistook one Elohim for another? Maybe YHWH was trying to set them on the right path, for instance when he revealed to david that sacrifice is not necessary, but another Elohim comes along to confuse and destroy, perhaps being in the same form made it hard for people to distinguish one from the other which would explain the contradictions in the old testament? Just a thought.... Great thread though!

reply to post by rusethorcain


This is how so called jews spell it, Governor *bleep* Dominion

reply to post by Rhebefree


Well, who knows. But why an Elohim at all? Why not the real prime creator, instead?

My personal theory is that they, while in Egypt, wanted someone who would free them from there and accepted an offer from a war god, who was (is) a lesser god.

So any conclusions ? I have also noticed the thread got derailed from the subject as it reaches near the end.
Who is the prime creator, has it been established. Did yahweh create us ? who is the creator of the universe, the main creator. I like to think there is a god, "the creator of universe"

So yes like said the above poster who is the prime creator ?

What are the few clues that comes out of this thread ?

From what I could gather yahweh = baal = storm god = son of enlil who is El

Son of Yahweh is marduk

Brother of enlil ( el) is enki who is poseidon = christian/islamic satan.

The son of poseidon is enoch whose descendant is noah who ancestor is adam.

Which means that enki is in the lineage of adam ?

anyone can add something on that ?

who created adam ?

Originally posted by Matteus

who created adam ?

Lord God created Adam. That is what is written in Genesis chapter 2.

Thee God created Man as male and female long before Adam was formed. That is stated in Genesis chapter 1. Thee God who created heaven and earth.

Lord God is not thee God.

reply to post by spy66

Ok who is thee god for you ?
You make it sound like the bible, very very short, make it longer, explain in detail.

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by spy66

 

Ok who is thee god for you ?
You make it sound like the bible, very very short, make it longer, explain in detail.

Who is God for me?

I have a personal view and understanding of who and what God is. How we all view this depends on how each one of us perceives the information we gather and read.

The Bible is a book without pictures. But by reading it, each one of us create our own images and understanding of how it is. I feel that much of what people preach about God is just images and imagination from their own mind, or someone else's mind. Because we always seam to seek out what others think about the subject to compare it to our own thoughts. Its like people seek out others who share the same imaginations as them selves.

I like to view God as a physical dimension. In the Bible God is depicted as being Infinite that always was and always is.

I see Thee God as a infinite dimension. There is no other God above it, because it is infinite, there is no room for two infinite dimensions.

Within math and science infinite is classified as a constant that never changes.

Constant (mathematics), a value that does not change.

The infinite can't change.

In the Bible It is stated that God will never change. But that is not true, because we exist. If we exist God must have changed, because existence can only exist within the infinite dimension.

A infinite dimension is a constant, and can not change without a will to do so. So existence must have been a choice.

If existence is a choice the infinite dimension "God" knew exactly what it was creating. Our expanding existence started out as a seed that has expanded and branched into what it is today.

The infinite dimension didn't create other Gods. We humans have. We humans have created Gods in our image.

The infinite dimension created us in its image. We all should know that the infinite doesn't have a human shape or a image. But it must have something else because we have it. Do you know what it is?

And do you know now why Lord God can't be thee God? Lord God is a Man. It says so in the Bible.

Lord God walked on earth long after the first Man "male and female" did.

Who looked out from he's tent and observed three men. And called one of them Lord God?

yes this was my guess as well ...

tt god can not be explained and goes beyond any concepts and that human man can not grasp it and so on but there is one line in the bible that says that god doesn't strive with man as man is made of flesh .......

Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

which I understand as God is beyond physicality and thus is separate from the organic world that we are part of.

We are oraganic beings here.

Also, many myth and legend talk about The most high gods creating or delegating his power to lesser god you know like a pantheon of gods : the titans.

I know it could be only myth but some people having near death experience reported seeing and talking to 3
giants being who could be the triad that the bible talks about.

So my reasoning maybe there are deities creating different things ?

Don't you think that mabe the usual argument saing that god is beyond grasp is maybe a way to say "well I don't knwo actually so whatever.....we cannot not explain it anyway ....I don't wanna bother"


anu, enki, enlil = triad ?

Maybe I ahve been fooled, I don't know....


Some say enki is the human creator, which means that god is some dude with beard and a dress ?

My reasoning is maybe "something" transfered humans as spirit form to take the physical form ?

The lord god have been associated by some as being yahweh and god being enki.....

confused....maybe we can not know......maybe trying to know take us away from the truth...

if we are part of god why can't we understand it ?

anu, enki, enlil = triad ?

You forgot the mother goddess, she is first of gods there to be, so the trinity does not work here.

Some say enki is the human creator, which means that god is some dude with beard and a dress ?

That is according to sumerian culture, enki is viewed as the god of the sea, the equivalent of poseidon, known in babylon as the dragon fish head. Many view Enki as satan.

The lord god have been associated by some as being yahweh and god being enki.....

Yes that was always my question, I already know there is a supreme god, what I wanted to know where is yahweh and who is he better put, is he the equivalent of enlil. Did he somehow create man kind, is he our creator ? The name Yahweh is not a name of a god, it just means to be, this sinonym/name some say was used in refrence to many gods.

reply to post by Matteus


Nice story but you tend to wonder and forget what we want to find out.
Who is yahweh, where is yahweh placed, is he our creator ? Is yahweh the creator in the genesis of the bible.

I like to view God as a physical dimension. In the Bible God is depicted as being Infinite that always was and always is.

In the bible god has many names, Elohim, Yahweh, Eylon, Elyon, we don't know if it's the same god, or many gods.

So the question still stands, is Yahweh the prime creator of mankind.

I found this in another forum :"
"As I write this I remember that in Celtic mythology the Tuatha de Danu are called the Children of Anu. There, Anu is female. What if this is the same Anu of the Sumerians. In which case Anu/Enki/Enlil still works. However there are likely more possibilities that I must research further.'

Also I read someone pretending to have channeled vision where enlil is a female.

So this triad anu, enki, enlil could still work.

I read that there is a disctinction between the lord god who is yahweh who seem to be violent and jealous.....
you can find that there is like 2 entities in the bible one is jealous and violent and want to be the only one worshiped " there is no other god than me" the equivalent of allah that has been associated with enlil.

But recently a guy made some research and found that yahweh = baal who is enlil 's son
some say that yahweh is actually enlil

Basically I ve comme up with a lot of text explaining that yahweh is an imposter.trying to make believe that he is the human creator.....
.the problem is when an entity ask for worship it is not divine.

Yahweh is not the human creator but may have very well created something else.

Father of yahweh is EL : the most high, he might be the prime creator.

Also :"Hindu where the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva can be found"

Shiva has a trident like poseidon associated with enki.....

As I write this I remember that in Celtic mythology the Tuatha de Danu are called the Children of Anu.
There, Anu is female.

Very very strange

What if this is the same Anu of the Sumerians. In which case Anu/Enki/Enlil still works

No besides Anu there is the mother goddess her many names Nintur, NINHURSAG, Ninmah or later known invented in babylon as Tiamat. Anu is a separate character, but I find it strange enough that Anu is labled as a she. There is no sugestion in the sumerian culture that it's a she, further more in the sumerian culture the way it is labeled and it acts it's a he, it's clearly depicted as a god and not a goddess.

I read that there is a disctinction between the lord god who is yahweh who seem to be violent and jealous.....
you can find that there is like 2 entities in the bible one is jealous and violent and want to be the only one worshiped " there is no other god than me" the equivalent of allah that has been associated with enlil.

The name yahweh does not apear in the new testament at all, I wonder who Jesus is refering to when he says father.

But recently a guy made some research and found that yahweh = baal who is enlil 's son
some say that yahweh is actually enlil

I wonder where they got that from, is there a connection from the sumerian enlil to yahweh ?

Father of yahweh is EL : the most high, he might be the prime creator.

Where did you read this, that father of yahweh is EL ?
EL in latin means HIM, it's masculine. EL= HIM EA=her.

yes I was about to add it :" Ancient pagans prayed facing certain directions dealing with the sumerian gods. Enlil (zeus) position was north, Anu (cronus) was east, Enki (poseidon) was south, and the Maid (Ninhursag) was west."

Lets see before the new testament I am referring to YHWH in hebrew bible, I use yahweh so we know whom we are talking about.





here there is a guy saying that baal = yahweh = haddad

forum.dancehallreggae.com...

Also wiki ":in the Bronze Age, Hadad (or Adad) was especially likely to be called Baʿal; however, Hadad was far from the only god to have that title.[dubious – discuss]

In the Canaanite pantheon as attested in Ugaritic sources, Hadad was the son of El"

wiki:"El is derived from Sumerian Enlil, God of Wind.[9]"

so if yahweh is baal , then his father is enlil

also wiki:" Nevertheless, few if any Biblical uses of "Baʿal" refer to Hadad, the lord over the assembly of gods on the holy mount of Heaven, but rather refer to any number of local spirit-deities worshipped as cult images, each called baʿal and regarded in the Hebrew Bible in that context as a false god."

so yahweh = false god = lord god

Who is the other entity refered in bible that seems to care about humans ?




Its all I know here, like I said an entity that ask for worship or threat of punishment must be a false god:"We said: 'Get ye down all from here: And if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.' (The Noble Quran, 2:38-39)"

I said some say enlil = zeus

also zeus have been associated with jesus ;
www.hiddenbible.com...

you will see that jesus and zeus have the similar face features in the picture below of that page

here there is a guy saying that baal = yahweh = haddad

But Baal is an Egyptian deity, why would he torment his own people to rescue the jews in the exodus.
To make things more confusing the name Yahweh is also associated with other gods in the bible like Elyon or Elohim. Maybe he is the son of "El"yon from the bible, that means most high god.

reply to post by pepsi78


Yes all this is a bit confusing.

If this guy is right then like I said yahweh is the son of El elyon the most high and maybe the conflict is between El and his son yahweh.

I mean look the 7 archangEL : MichaEL, GabriEL, RaphaEL, UriEL, RaguEL, RemiEL and SaraqaEL
maybe the EL is like the tradmark here, the angels who are human protector

but the El as enlil seems to be different of El elyon..

It is weir that elyon sounds like el Lion or " he lion" and some say humans have been created b the lion people or feline races.....

So maybe they are all imposters enki, enlil, yahweh anu etc......

but I read el elyon have been associated with yahweh too....

Maybe the true creator is very secret and might have been mentionned very rarely or maybe is mentionned in books we don't have access to

but wait "It has been suggested that the reference to 'Ēl ʿElyōn maker of heaven and earth' in Genesis 14:19 and 22 reflects the belief that ʿElyōn was progenitor of Ouranus and Gê, as suggested in Philo of Byblos's account of Phoenician History."

ouranus = sky
anu = from Sumerian *An = sky, heaven
ouranus = anu ?

Gê is gaia that means earth

anu ' s consort is ki that means earth too

anu & ki = ouranus & gaia


so el elyon would be ranked higer than anu & gaia who is higher than enki ,enlil and Ninhursag

so you got : el elyon > anu & ki > enki , enlil , Ninhursag (trinity)