Proofs Of God(s)/ Reasons To Believe In One

reply to post by IAMIAM


Orrrrr we could just look at the more reasonable answer: evolutionary psychology.

A desire to be loved is a trait that helps to foster community, community is something at assists us in survival, therefore a desire to be loved would be a selected trait.

And that is far more reasonable to believe than that we were all created by a deity.

Now, if you don't accept evolution, you won't accept my argument. But I cannot accept your argument because it doesn't really provide any proof to back up your statements.

The logical form being:

If their was God and he created man in his image, every single man and woman on this earth would have some trait in common. Something that makes us who we are.

As your first premise.

Now, you don't provide a reason for us sharing a simple trait, you simply state that being created by a deity would mean that we share a single trait.

You then state that the trait is we all want to be loved, therefore we were created by a deity.

It's logically empty.

reply to post by IAMIAM


It's not an entirely fictional scenario, it's just a way to create a slightly more sanitized version of war and disaster relief scenarios.

Now the situation I gave was one where there were graduated scales of morality (primarily to disprove absolute morality). However, if there is only one person on each of the tracks, each choice is equally moral numerically. However, if my grandmother is on track 3 and my four-year-old child is on track 1 you could easily say it is more moral to move my child out of harm's way to kill my grandmother, as she has lived a life and my child has not been given a chance at it yet.

Putting family members doesn't remove the fact that it becomes a moral question, it just complicates the issues.

And inaction can often be more moral than action, but not in this scenario. In this scenario, minimizing harm is the only moral choice.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
As your first premise.

Now, you don't provide a reason for us sharing a simple trait, you simply state that being created by a deity would mean that we share a single trait.

You then state that the trait is we all want to be loved, therefore we were created by a deity.

It's logically empty.

My Brother, I never said I did not accept evolution. Do we not have enough evidence of it?

I can accept evolution and God.

Why would that single trait be love? Because it is with love that we help each other. It is with love that our societies prosper. It is love that we Evolve/evlovE/ EvLove.

Without love, society cannot function. We seek to destroy each other. It is necessary from both a scientific perspective and a religious perspective.

I am not discounting your point of view.

All I ask is that you allow me the same freedom to have mine. In doing so, can we not Love each other despite our differences?

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


It's good that you can accept evolution and your deity, I was just saying that there's the possibility that some do not.

Here's an interesting thing though. You say that we seek to destroy each other without love.

Take the not-so-noble piranha. They're ferocious animals that can devour massive quantities of meat incredibly quickly. But rarely do you see piranha killing each other.

It doesn't have to be 'love'. It can just be evolutionary benefit.

Anyway, I'm not saying you don't have the freedom to have your opinion, I'm just saying that it is unsound. I can't help that it is wrong, as it's logically empty. You have no supporting structure nor an actual argument, merely a statement that you believe in.

In a small village in Africa lived two men who were Brothers. The each lived on opposite sides of the road which went through their village.

One Brother grew yams, the other grew sugar cane.

They lived, loved, and traded peacefully.

One day a visitor from another village passed through.

The Brothers did not recognise this visitor as a guest and chased him out.

The visitor was angry at the Brothers for this. So, he concocted an evil trick.

One half of his body he painted blue, the other red. In one hand he held a maraca, the other a tambourine.

Like this he walked down the road the brothers were on, shaking his tambourine and his maraca, making quite a commotion.

The Brothers were in there fields working when he passed by.

The sight was such a specticle, the two brothers paused in wonder as he passed.

Once he was out of their sight. The two Brothers ran to the road.

One Brother exclaimed "Did you see that blue man shaking a tambourine?"

The other Brother exclaimed "Surely your eye sight is gone, it was a red man shaking a maraca!"

The two Brothers each defended their point of view until they soon quarrelled, and killed each other.

[edit on 6-9-2010 by IAMIAM]

reply to post by IAMIAM


I sort of understand what you're going here. You're trying to say that we're just exposed to different views, therefore we'll be in disagreement or something of that sort.

Except they're in a null position, neither can prove their argument, but there is a telling problem, that they could compromise and agree to disagree as neither of them can prove anything. But that's an entirely different position, as neither one of them is claiming 'if you don't believe he was red you will burn in a lake of fire for all eternity' or such nonsense.

Therefore I actually have a reason to challenge things, I cannot compromise when people are making such absolute claims about reality. I would like to see the truth come out rather than simply agree to disagree.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Except they're in a null position, neither can prove their argument, but there is a telling problem, that they could compromise and agree to disagree as neither of them can prove anything. But that's an entirely different position, as neither one of them is claiming 'if you don't believe he was red you will burn in a lake of fire for all eternity' or such nonsense.

My friend, the story I wrote above is a metaphor. You paint a picture that easily tells a moral, that those who are not able to understand more plainly may understand.

This is how religions tell their truths, they paint metaphors. They use scary pictures to conceal the deeper mysteries of thier truths. Why? Because at one point in time the common man, even rulers could not read or write. The stories were kept as an oral tradition. Now the Chiefs and early Kings were too busy ruling to worry about such things as contemplating God. They left that full time position up to Shamans, Priests, Ngangas, etc. These people contemplated morality and explained it in simple truths the Chiefs, Kings, Hunters, Gatherers, etc, would understand.

Eventually writing came on the scene and these same stories were put to papyrus (early paper). The stories though similar, bore the distinct cultural trappings of the area they were written down in. Which is why there are so many versions of the same basic tale.

So, when we read them today, we must ask ourselves, is there really a lake of fire? We have explored the whole world, the heavens and beyond, no lake of fire. So, what is it really trying to tell me here? Hhhmmm

We have the ability to reason, we have the ability to use logic, we are far more educated then our early ancestors. Use these benefits when you read your Bible. Trust your ability to comprehend logically and with reason. Run from those who wish to force their view down your throat.

You have your own set of eyes to see, your own mind to comprehend, and your own ability to know right from wrong. Cherish it and defend it to the death. Failure to do so, will be your own undoing.

The tale I wrote above is an old African Eba from the Ifa tribe in Yoruba (modern day Nigeria). It is far older than Christianity, far older than Abraham, far older then even Egypt. Yet, you understood it beautifully.

You will do well on your own with your Bible.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I am sorry my friend, I totally misunderstood your post. You were of the exact opposite position from my first understanding.

In that case, if someone wishes to argue their perspective with you, don't.

All we can do is share perspectives, that is all. You cannot convince me how I see with my eyes, nor can I tell you how you do.

If they want to fear a lake of fire, let them. Nod your head, and let them go.

Love them, always, hear what they have to say, share your view, then part as friends. If not friends, let them hate you, but love them always. In that, you cannot ere.

With Love,

Your Brother

Would anyone else like to post a proof of God or reason to believe in one? If not, I may start simply posting classical proofs or reasonings.

If nobody posts in here I'll just put in something about Pascal's wager.

I find it awfully odd that I started this thread about evolution and yet that one came up with more discussion on the existence of god than this one, and I explicitly stated that it wasn't a thread about the existence of god.

Anyone else care to take a whack?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Madnessinmysoul, you don't post on here as often as you once did. Nice to see you around.

I might be able to explain God and possibly "bridge the gap" between atheists and the intelligent design crowd.

Ever heard of Infinite Hierarchy of Beings Theory?

reply to post by Scramjet76


I may have heard a variation on it, but let me here you put it forth as you understand it before replying properly, as it would be incredibly rude of me to assume what you're thinking about is the exact same thing that I'm thinking about.

First of all I'd like to address people worship different gods than The holy one. Them proofs of their Gods can be different. like I have always chocolate when I ask my mother to this is the third man I have killed and still I don't feel relax at home when I'm watching the tube.

First of all the fact that there are different gods than God speaks for itself.

I'd advise you to read the book Genesis if you want proof for God, further I can advise you to just look around. And to feel your body. Thinking is also proof of God. Knowing answers on questions proves God existence as your creator and creator of all things.

Nations on this disc named earth are proof of a creator, God Jehovah

Atheism/satanism is of proof that God exists. Man goes to police station to make note he was robbed by another, seeks justice. Justice is from the Lord. Men seek knowledge and wisdom. Wisdom comes from the Lord. The opportunity gaining knowledge found in the world God created is proof of existence of God.

and then you have THE MIGHT OF PRAYER

this is proof.



Men who deny God will never allow proof of Him to be existent.

greets.

Originally posted by IAMIAM
The two Brothers each defended their point of view until they soon quarrelled, and killed each other.

[edit on 6-9-2010 by IAMIAM]

So their thought of there being a man making noise with a tambourine was alike, so they went further.

Another proof is the creative outletst one has.

reply to post by etherical waterwave


Who is the Holy One? Jesus? no! He was a false messiah! Truth!
Jesus is a false God and prophet as well. Look at Judaism and then the false religion of Christianity.
Source

reply to post by etherical waterwave

Originally posted by etherical waterwave
I'd advise you to read the book Genesis if you want proof for God, further I can advise you to just look around.

How is a book written in the Bronze Age proof of any deity? And how is looking around proof of any deity?

And to feel your body.

Again, how is this proof of any deity?

Thinking is also proof of God.

How?

Knowing answers on questions proves God existence as your creator and creator of all things.

Again, how?

Nations on this disc named earth are proof of a creator, God Jehovah

Again, how?

And the Earth isn't a disc, it's a sphere.

Atheism/satanism is of proof that God exists.

How is atheism equated with satanism? One is disbelief in any deity while the other is the worship of a supernatural being?
And how would they be proof of any deity?

Man goes to police station to make note he was robbed by another, seeks justice. Justice is from the Lord.

You aren't providing logical connections, you're simply making statements.

Man goes to vineyard to make wine, he drinks wine and is merry. This merriment is from Dionysus.

Your argument is nonsense.

Men seek knowledge and wisdom. Wisdom comes from the Lord. The opportunity gaining knowledge found in the world God created is proof of existence of God.

Again, where are the logical connections?

Saying justice and wisdom come from a supernatural source doesn't make it true nor does it form a logical statement.

and then you have THE MIGHT OF PRAYER

this is proof.

Then why hasn't there been any scientific evidence to prove 'the might of prayer' exists? Why hasn't 'the might of prayer' cured any illness? Why hasn't 'the might of prayer' healed an amputee?

Men who deny God will never allow proof of Him to be existent.

I'm not denying any deities. To deny something is to know it exists and then reject it. I do not know of the existence of any deity, hence my questioning of those who do believe in them.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Well it may very well be the "string theory" of religion.

God is most often conceived of as the supernatural creator and overseer of the universe. Theologians have ascribed a variety of attributes to the many different conceptions of God. The most common among these include omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence.

Source Wiki

That is a good start. The problem is that people automatically assume that humans would be able to relate to such a consciousness.

Some claim if you read a lengthy old book like the bible, it will teach you everything and bring you closer to "God." Other beliefs presume that a "Nirvana" can be achieved through enlightenment and the denial of ignorance. I personally espouse such a belief, but I'm nowhere near ego-centric enough to believe that this can be accomplished in a human lifetime! So how do we get there?

Let us look around nature at the creatures we can observe and make judgements in terms it's complexity and ability to understand. Let's take an ant for our first example. How do we relate to ants? We understand their basic functions, culture, and reasons for their existance. But how close can we really get to an ant? Do we bend down and pick up individual ants and tell them how much we "love them?" Most of us don't. By definition, we are so complex, that an ant is "nothing" compared to us and so we hardly relate to it. Likewise, the ant can't relate to us either. How does an ant understand the complexities of the human family? Or how to build a 1000 ft skyscraper? It just isn't possible given the ant's fundamental nature.

Now dogs are a bit closer to us. We relate to them more than ants because a dog is a more complex organism. We can relate to a dog's emotional state when it appears sad or excited. Furthermore, dogs are more useful to humans than ants. They can be used to ward off intruders or even fetch our slippers. Lastly, on a fundamental level we know this is true, because a stroll through society shows people going through great lengths to clean up their dog's mess on walks. We see people bending down to pet dogs. We don't see people bending down to pet ants!

Nature shows us that each "being" it produces is so fundamentally primitive compared to the last one, that there is alot of disconnect there. This is supported by evolutionists who espouse that it took millions of years for man to rise from a primitive hominid. Now where am I going with all this? How would we recognize a higher being?

I believe everything can be fundamentally explained in terms of science. Although I cannot "prove it," I believe these UFOs that visit our planet are controlled by other beings from other worlds. They are feats of physics and engineering that are simply beyond our knowledge. This is why the entire phenomenon is so mysterious. Because there is that fundamental disconnect that cannot be resolved in one human lifetime. It could take millions of years to learn how to survive indefinitely in outerspace, without the need for a planet! I call these beings a Type 2 civilization.

One of the most agreed on predictions for the future was by astronomer Nikolai Kardashev. He felt that our civilization might progress through four different stages, and that other alien civilizations might be categorized as being in one of those four distinct stages.

Source thinkquest.org

Not only do I believe the mountains of UFO/Alien reports can be explained by contact with a Type 2 civilization... but I conjecture that these Type 2 beings work for Type 3 beings. In terms of science, where is the largest source of power in the galaxy? The center bulge where the supermassive blackhole resides. I speculate that these Type 3's use this power to transport the lesser Type 2's throughout the galaxy so they can begin to contact emerging intelligences like our own. Theoretical physicist Michio Kaku believes that on this scale, human beings are a Type 0 now showing the growing pains associated with emerging to Type 1 status.

The interesting thing is that this theory is observed in nature on lesser scales, yet can offer explainations for aliens, God, and greater forms of consciousness (above our own). Let's try another example to illustrate my point. Can you imagine if man was able to harness the power of a supermassive blackhole? In our current form, we would be horrible caretakers to the galaxy. Can you imagine a guy having a "really bad day" and in a fit of emotion he blows up a star system? On a fundamental level, you must be of "Type 3" complexity to have access to those kinds of energies and physics. Otherwise you would see chaos and the universe could not exist. It takes the maturity of eons to achieve things for a reason!

Michio Kaku postulates that if you had access to enough energy you might be able to travel faster than light, time travel, and even access a parrallel world. This means that given access to enough energy, a Type 3 civilization(s) might even be able to contact a Type 4 civilization (God). These Type 4 being(s) by definition would reside outside our universe. Therefore this Type 4 civilization could have powers like precognition and perpetual motion. Not only do these powers sound eerily close to "God," but they may be possible if you originated from a larger universe. In other words, "perpetual motion" may violate this universe's "law of thermodynamics," but it could be possible given access to a larger universe with different physical laws and more "energy" to tap into.

Now I posted this information recently in the UFO/Alien forum, but no one seemed very interested. Although it is difficult to prove, I have philosophically been unable to shoot it down thus far. I like that it seems to bridge the gap between science and God. It gives a reason for our universe in terms of religion. But only allows access to that level of consciousness through countless eons of evolution. It explains why "God" does not interfere with "mortal affairs." Do you intervene when you see a beetle getting killed by a few ants on the ground beneath you? Probably not. And even if you did, there would be no way for the ant to understand what just happened or be able to thank you.

So perhaps "God" does miracles except you wouldn't know how to explain it in terms of ordinary thought and understanding. You see, once a civilization reaches a certain level of complexity, by the very nature of it, you wouldn't be able to understand it. That is why these Type 2 beings might have been sent to this planet. Because they're technology is at the very edge of our modern understanding of reality. This gives us a reference point in understanding that what we are observing is not "magic." It's not "God." There's just always a bigger fish out there... there is always a greater level of consciousness. Sometimes it's difficult to see from an ant's perspective.

Now where do we see examples of hierarchy? Everywhere in human society. Our families, machines, schools, government, military, etc. Where do we see it in nature? The mouse eats the bug. The snake eats the mouse. The hawks gets the snake. Where do we see it in nature on a large scale? Moons, planets, stars, solar systems, galaxies. Where do we see it on a very small scale? Quark, electron, atom, molecule, cell, tissue.
It is unavoidable. It is omnipresent. Everything is able to be understood using the Theory of Infinite Hierarchy of Beings. Not to be confused with the Infinite Hierarchy Nesting of Matter.

The theory leaves plenty of room for belief in:

1) God. In theory, "the one" could be organized/represented by an infinite heirarchy of beings... each level of consciousness takes eons to achieve by the very nature of itself.
2) UFOs, aliens and greater beings
3) Laws of physics and science as we know them, including evolution, QM, parallel universes, multiverse, etc.
4) The ability to possibily "meet God" given an unimaginable amount of time, learning, and energy.
5) Intelligent and purposeful design for our reality.

I have tried for days to shoot holes in this theory. So far all of my attempts of failed...

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -Einstein

reply to post by ImAnAlienOnMyOwnPlanet


That is where you are wrong.
Yeshua Ha Mashiach,shalom chavareem

reply to post by mamabeth


How am I wrong here? I have offered proof that Jesus is not the Messiah!
Read through my other post and threads.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Did your Jesus do all this? I doubt it! Since it's not mentioned in the Bible and he was killed in the Bible. Which goes aganist the Messiah concept.

The HUMAN Jewish Messiah will accomplish the following prophecies - ALL of them with no "second coming"' * The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) * Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4) * The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17) * He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10) * The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2) *****In other words - this must all be accomplished in a human lifetime***** * Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4) * Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9) * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10) * All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) * Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8) * There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) * All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11) * He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7) * Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5) * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23) * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) * Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9) * The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9) * Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33) * He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4) * He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9).