Taqiyya: in regards to "moderate Mulsims"

Originally posted by dreamwalker74
reply to post by silo13

 

Also as stated earlier, Taqiyya may be used any time there is a "percieved threat". According to the Koran, all non-believers, are the enemies of Allah, and would wish to do you harm. I think that pretty much allows a blanket excuse. They simply can't lie to other Muslims.

Islam asks muslims to be modest , sincere and truthfull .

Islam is an easy religion which doesn't complicate the issue of the Creator and Createe relations.

Takiyye is also used by any and all other groups of people on earth too . It's usually called diplomacy .

You've stated that you are an Islamophobe and you are proud to wear it at as a badge .

Well , may I suggest that you are letting the fear rule your world view .

You will never get to meet ALL the muslims and god willing both you and those muslims will live an uneventfull life and depart from this earth .

Those muslims won't know the fact that you have carried a brick like fear on your shoulders .

Drop the fear , that would be a clever thing to do .

reply to post by 23432


It is not the individual people, who either fully believe in this "religion" or were simply born into it and could care less. It is the ideology itself that I fear, and as a Non-Muslim, I believe rightfully so.

reply to post by 23432


Diplomacy, that's a good one. When diplomacy is about creating true relationships between countries/ idealisms, that is one thing. When diplomacy means smiling to my face, while you slide the knife between my ribs, that is quite another.

Dear Dreamwalker74,

It is with great sadness that I write this post, for it will show where you mind lies in - Irrationality -, despite the claims of '10 years in research' as you claimed in your other thread that you no longer seek for the truth and wish to live an ignorant life.

As I had rationally rebut your claims on your researched materials on the other thread based on solid and anecdotal science and scientific studies, so too will I have to rebut your ignorant views upon the peaceful religion known as Islam.

The Koran is based upon a compilation of the Tawrat, Zabur, Injil and the Hadith. Moral guidance, values and principals from which its faith derives from were basically from the other texts, while the Hadith is based on the life history of the good prophet Muhammad's life.

To understand the Hadith is to comprehend historical evidence of what was happening in the middle east during that turbulant 7th century era. It was ruled by despots, murderers and the vilest animals that walked on 2 legs, even within Christiandom..

It was a modern day Gomarrah, and would had been wiped off the map had not the mercy of our Creator to send His last prophet to guide mankind back on the path to fulfill our destiny. He had to be a warrior, and had to wage war upon such animals for humanity in that locality were bullied, dominated and subjugated.

There is no crime in hunting down dangerous animals, the way we modern men would not hesitate to destroy a killer croc or ravenous tiger that had taken the lives of the innocent mercilessly.

Those arabs who did not convert to peace when given the chance,to stop their slaughtering and torturing of innocents were then dealt with, the way even our present system of justice would either send those animals to life imprisonment or electrocuted.

For you to claim that muslim are allowed to lie and to kill, even today is abosolute hogwash, if not, it is a delilberate to cast aspersion on those who seek a peaceful life in that religion. There was a time for war, and a time for peace.

Today, Islam is not at war with humanity, nor will it be in the future. But it is ignorant or willful people like you whom intends to push muslims into a corner and force them to wage war, the way the radical islamic terrorists group had been attempting to do so for the past 10 years.

Muslims, like everyone else on Earth, are sick and tired of wars, with its pain and sufferings brought to mankind. We christians, jews, muslims, hindus, buddhist, atheists, etc, had been worshipping the same Creator all along, a divine being with many names for many different cultures at different epoch of comprehension amongst different separating locations.

We are all brothers and sisters by divine Creation. The only thing you need to fear will not come from muslims, or jews, or christians. It will come from those who seek to exploit our differences, divide and conquer so as to rule over us.

Wake up from your ignorance and irrationality in this modern intelligent interconnected age, unless you are representing that agency. Even then, you are always human first before anything else and one of us by divine blood.

Peace

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


“while the Hadith is based on the life history of the good prophet Muhammad's life”

I guess “good” is simply a matter of perception.


“There is no crime in hunting down dangerous animals, the way we modern men would not hesitate to destroy a killer croc or ravenous tiger that had taken the lives of the innocent mercilessly”

This is still the view of “modern Muslims” Only the killer crocs and tigers, are the modern day “non believers”


“Those arabs who did not convert to peace when given the chance,to stop their slaughtering and torturing of innocents were then dealt with, the way even our present system of justice would either send those animals to life imprisonment or electrocuted.”

Then why are the modern Muslims, who have not “converted to peace”, still among us, and are not condemned, by those who have supposedly “converted”? This is sill a very violent “religion“, with very violent members, who are not punished or condemned by their own. I dare you, as the Muslim that I suspect you are to do the following, publicly, right now.

1. Condemn all those who use violence in the name of Islam.

2. Declare women equal, and call for the removal of all laws in every Muslim country that would make women second class citizens.

3. Call for the end of all public lynching’s, stoning, and all other forms of execution, until the cases are heard before a non secular jury.

4. Condemn all those who call for the destruction, of the United States, Europe, and all other westernized countries.

5. Call the people who have cut the heads off of people on video, for the whole world to see. “sick, twisted, cold-blooded murderers”.

6. Call all those that would “marry” children under 10, the pedophiles that they are.

You do all these it will be a start. Then I have many, many more.


“Today, Islam is not at war with humanity, nor will it be in the future. But it is ignorant or willful people like you whom intends to push muslims into a corner and force them to wage war, the way the radical islamic terrorists group had been attempting to do so for the past 10 years.”
You are correct, Islam is not at war with “humanity”, simply all “non believers”. Unless you don’t actually believe in the words of Mohammed, and somehow your religion has changed.


“We are all brothers and sisters by divine Creation. The only thing you need to fear will not come from muslims, or jews, or christians. It will come from those who seek to exploit our differences, divide and conquer so as to rule over us.”

Pretty darn sure that’s not a verse in the Koran.


“Wake up from your ignorance and irrationality in this modern intelligent interconnected age, unless you are representing that agency. Even then, you are always human first before anything else and one of us by divine blood.”

Modern intelligent, interconnected age? OK changed my mind, you are not Muslim.

reply to post by dreamwalker74


He asked a simple question.

Cite the koran, not your opinion.

Otherwise your argument has no merit..

reply to post by Miraj

You speak arab? Otherwise supposedly all translations are "tarnished". I speak not from opinion but from many of those who have "translated" this book. Please explain to me where I'm off. I still see no condemnations. Doesn't suprise me. By the way the offer is open to ALL "conformed" muslims".

reply to post by dreamwalker74


Dear Dreamwalker74,

By your recent posts, you had already proven yourself one truly sick individual and probably lost your mind. But I will still try to attempt to help you gain a little comprehension, which I know it will only be a forgone conclusion, but I am not one to give up, more so a precious life such as yours, for you are my brother by Creation.


1. I am not a muslim,had never been nor ever will be one. I am a Christian by faith, a follower of Christ, for each had been touched in his own time and culture to know our Creator.

And mine happens to be Christianity at a young age to call upon His sacred name and know Him as much as I am given the opportunity to do so, just as others from other religions are given such opportunities and blessings to know Him


2. As for the list that you demanded of me, - Quid Pro Quo - do me a favour and I will do yours. And I have a long list, for it is perfection according to today's perfection beyond culture, secular and religion themes that I will be seeking from you, as well as futures.

I don't bother to list it all down, for I know you will not be able to perform it, nor will I, for you and I and every single human on Earth are not PERFECT, and can only learn and progress from our mistakes, perhaps not overnight, but in time.


3. If you know not what is good in a time of humanity being subjugated and murdered, then you should belong to the era of the Nazis, and you one of the commanders ordering the death of innocent jews would suit you well.


4. Killer crocs and ravenous man eating tigers are not modern animals as you presumed. It had been the policy of our cavemen ancestors. And today, we are still hunting such animals where it exists. Ask the australians and the Indians.

But the worse animals are those on 2 legs that had murdered more innocents than animals could, and had been brought to justice as a daily affair in our times, no matter the religion or differences we all have.


5. Within the religion of Islam, there is the practice of tolerance, even when that religion had been corrupted after the good prophet Muhammad, blessed be his name, died. If not, jews and christians would long had been annihilated and exterminated.


6. Of course you will not find out that we are all brothers and sisters by Creation, not in the Torah, Koran or the bible. Today, with modern science and better educated comprehension, did we realize and better understanding that all along we humans had the same DNA, and shared the same religious teachings with better intelligent interconnectivity.

The Muslims were the first to realize that by the evidence of acknowledging the Tawrat, Zabur and the Injil, and had followed that path since the 7th century after the prophet's death, even though he intelligently left no successor when he had all the time in the world to do so.

He lived till 60 odd years. He sadly knew humaity's failings but hope that an enlightened age will follow. Today, with better education, we are that enlightened age, and many more muslims than you realize had understood his aims.


I doubt if i had gotten through your thickened mindset, but thanks anyway for giving me the opportunity to write and post. You and I are insignificant, but not the readers whom may consider on an intelligent basis and make the necessary actions for change.
Good luck.

reply to post by dreamwalker74


The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's
beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from
physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be
"Dissimulation."

sorry dreamwaker74*, but after i researched it seems like what you said is a bunch of bull...

this fits perfectly in iraq, when a group of sunni insurgents stop a shia and ask him what sect he is, in that case he can use taqiyya otherwise they will kill him...

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Excellent post !

reply to post by RizeorDie

When you have grown out your beard, and admitted defeat. Just remember this post.

reply to post by dreamwalker74


Hate to tell you man, but if you're getting your information from Daniel Pipes and islam-Watch and these other sites, then you're not actually learning anything. You might as well be citing Stormfront when talking about Judaism. In fact, this exact claim about "lying to non-believers" is one frequently lobbed about as to why we should never trust jews, too.

I'm actually rather certain you know how heavily biased your sources are; one would have to be pretty dim to not catch on, after all. So your use of them is pretty telling towards your own agenda here.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by TheWalkingFox]

Originally posted by dreamwalker74
reply to post by RizeorDie

When you have grown out your beard, and admitted defeat. Just remember this post.

 

what are you talking about?

if you dont wish to discuss your thread then you shouldnt have posted it in the first place. its obvious you're spreading disinformation, and when faced with the truth you just turn away like a coward and refuse to respond. you wasteman get a life... find a hobby...

Originally posted by oozyism
Taqiya is only applicable if your life is in danger
[edit on 24-8-2010 by oozyism]

I don't know if this is true or not, but I will give it the benefit of the doubt.

The problem is that such a statement is very open-ended. In fact, Islam itself is a bit open ended. There are no popes in Islam, and no complicated hierarchy.

In Sunni Islam, anyone can take the Koran, and with some charisma (or wealth), become a spiritual leader, an imam for short. In this way, it is similar to bible-thumping Christianity. Unlike bible-thumpers, Muslims don't view tradition as evil (many Christians view traditions as bad even though this view is a tradition in itself) and therefore there are only 4-5 major sects of Islam instead of 45,000.

This is why there are liberal and moderate Muslims. These Muslims most likely aren't practicing "tiqiyya" to fool us into complacency. There are, however, Muslims that do want to fool us or at best, view the entire world as against Islam and therefore threatening their lives.

This is the dangerous branch of Islam. This is also a very puritan branch of Islam which has been around since the 1700's. They want to go back to Mohammed's old ways of conquest. Saying that all Muslims want to go back to Mohammed's war ways is like saying that all Christians and Jews want to go back to the days of stoning petty criminals and butchering towns full of unbelievers. There are however, some Christians and Jews that do long for the old ways and have been around in recent times.

This puritan branch of Islam is so crazed with their religion that they feel that world's present cultures is a grave threat to them and they will lie to trick us into something different. As any other puritan, they are very energetic and will stop at nothing to gain positions of power. They will terrorize, bomb, rape, stone their way to plunging the world into fear of saying anything that can be construed as anti-Muslim.

Interestingly, western elites and extremist Muslims seem to be very buddy-buddy. The Saudi's are very close "friends" and Osama bin Laden, our great enemy, has had many American connections. These two groups are using each other for their own ends.

This is the real "taqiyya" to look out for.

Many will defend the ground-zero imam, saying he has helped the FBI in counter-terrorism operations. Bin Laden also helped the U.S. government in anti-Soviet operations. Just because a person helps an alphabet agency does not make them good, in fact it should cast more suspicion.

The ground-zero mosque is not just a symbolic triumph for extreme Muslims. The mosque is also a distraction for us Americans. It is much easier for us to point fingers at Muslims then the epic failure called the U.S. government.

For more real "taqiyya", look how everyone is getting riled up against a mosque and how events are trying to ignite an anti-Muslim sentiment. Combine this with the situation in Iran. Those crazy Iranians that stone rape victims are evil and gonna build a nuke while those crazy Saudi's that stone rape victims and funnel money to terrorists that deliver that nuke are nice and protected under the American military machine.

Taqiyya

Originally posted by dreamwalker74
Firstly Taqiyya can be used under any percieved threat. Such as being surrounded by non believers, who are the enemy of Allah. All enemies of Allah are a percieved threat.

You know, I've ONLY ever seen this twisted and weird point of view from non-muslims who want to denigrate Islam. I've NEVER in my entire life heard such a point of view from a muslim.

Taqiyya itself is a very controversial subject. Many sunnis don't even accept the use of taqiyya, saying it is an act of hypocrisy. For those who do, oozy said it best, with:

Originally posted by oozyism
In regards to Taqiya:

Taqiya is only applicable if your life is in danger

[edit on 25-8-2010 by babloyi]