ADHD doesnt exist

reply to post by kosmicjack


Kosmicjack.....

Yes.....all that is true.

As I think about it.....

Some of those important factors you expressed can also be influenced by parenting, in both positive & negative directions.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Found this on the Wikipedia-Page:

The British Psychological Society said in a 1997 report that physicians and psychiatrists should not follow the American example of applying medical labels to such a wide variety of attention-related disorders: "The idea that children who don’t attend or who don’t sit still in school have a mental disorder is not entertained by most British clinicians

reply to post by Skyfloating


As I explained in my first post, I wholeheartedly agree that our children are being overprescribed these drugs, and I think the conditions are very over-diagnosed, often under pressure from parents who want an easy way out when dealing with children they simply don't want to spend the time to discipline properly.

But to claim that all ADD/ADHD-sufferers are simply "imaginative" or "active" shows a clear misunderstanding (or complete lack of any understanding) of the condition you're discussing. It has nothing to do with being overly active or "imaginative", and everything to do with an inability to focus, even on things the child WANTS to do. Yes, there is a "checklist" to aid diagnosis, but the checklist isn't meant to be anything more than an aid. Every symptom the child/parent admits to is supposed to be investigated to determine if the cause of that symptom is pathologic (ADD/ADHD) or physiologic (typical childhood behaviour). Obviously, not every physician and/or psychiatrist does their job in investigating the symptoms, but, again, to claim that a few (or a lot) of bad apples negates the actual EXISTENCE of a disorder is ignorant.

As for your comment ahout people with "other world views", no, I don't think those with differeing views should be silenced or kept from moderating. I simply meant to imply that it was my belief moderators were people held to a higher standard, and who understood that part of "Deny Ignorance" (the site's motto) was presenting evidence for any claim made, rather than assuming your own thoughts and opinions were worth the same as scientific investigation.

FredT is a good example. Whenever he presents something or comments on a thread, it is well researched and couched in proper scientific skepticism. Maybe...Maybe Not is another good example, though he isn't a moderator.

Actually, Sky, it does exist, it's just hugely, hugely overly diagnosed, but not as much as it was, say, 20 years ago. Things are somewhat better.

Unruly children have been overly medicated for decades, something I call "chemically restrained", which is exactly what it is.

But a person who does not see disturbed children on a regular basis might not ever actually see a child with a true diagnosis, and who is fully symptomatic. It's not a pretty sight.

They injure themselves several times daily, and it can be dangerous in this respect. They will run out into the street without looking for on-coming traffic, and they will try to get out of a moving car, and this type thing.

But I agree there has been a certain "rubber stamping", by er, certain institutions, to obtain the diagnosis for the purpose of chemically restraining the child.

What is sad to me, is that there are doctors and psychologists who will actually give the diagnosis, knowing it's false, for the purpose of assisting those around the child....rather than the child him/herself.
It's true that a doctor might prescribe a medication because the mother is "having a nervous breakdown and can't cope". Deny it all you like.
I've seen it happen.

Don't even get me started on the vast array of anti-psychotic medications which are prescribed to children to control unruly behaviors. Grrr.

But I assure you, ADHD, does exist and it is a very real disorder, it's just not nearly as common as people would have us believe.





[edit on 8/21/2010 by ladyinwaiting]

Public school systems are institutions and like any institution will do what it is designed to and that is function like one. It works in the medium range, not higher level and not lower level. If a student doesn't fit the "standard" there will be some issues and if the student is unable to adapt, the school will present him/her as non-conforming. There isn't a lot of room for individualism, I'm sure you all can list/count the reasons for this.

I suppose the ultimate point is that parents have the responsibility to be advocates for their children. They control the home environment and they know their kids. If a child is born of a nature that does not "fit" with and cannot "adapt" to a public school institution than it falls to the parents to ensure that the children are presented with an alternative. There are so many other options from home schooling, to private schools, to charter schools that will be better able to attune to an individual child if that child cannot find his/her way in the system.

The system may be broke, but there are alternatives and it's a parents job and responsibility to (at minimum) research them. IMO of course.

[edit on 21-8-2010 by LadySkadi]

Originally posted by LadySkadi


The system may be broke, but there are alternatives and it's a parents job and responsibility to (at minimum) research them. IMO of course.

That's all well and good but it's much more fun to heap abuse on under funded, underpaid, teachers with a classroom that has 35 kids in it.

That's the reason I quit education and became a selfemployed entrepreneur.
I was a good teacher.



[edit on 21-8-2010 by whaaa]

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupaI simply meant to imply that it was my belief moderators were people held to a higher standard, and who understood that part of "Deny Ignorance" (the site's motto) was presenting evidence for any claim made, rather than assuming your own thoughts and opinions were worth the same as scientific investigation.

I'm not sure where you are coming. It's a discussion forum. Sheesh.

Some Mods feel the need to qualify their posts, out of courtesy and an abundance of caution, with a box that stakes their claim as a member too.

I totally understand it. We are members. First.

However, I like to think our members are more sophisticated and nuanced than needing a silly reminder that Mods have ideas, passions and opinions.

I think the OP is a long overdue, open-minded line in the sand. As Maybe...Maybe Not and Unity Emissions so eloquently laid out, there are most certainly exceptions and extreme circumstances where a person may need more help with concentration and focus. Let's discuss it.

However, I think it's not unreasonable or outrageous to explore the idea that a very vogue diagnosis may, in fact, be a cop out, an excuse or a total misunderstanding of the human brain - even if that discussion was started by a Mod.


[edit on 21/8/2010 by kosmicjack]

reply to post by kosmicjack


Kosmicjack.....

I've just been thinking about Skyfloating's thread title.....

I think the problem might perhaps be.....it's a little "awkward".....it's a little "absolute".

It might perhaps be better if the title left a little more "wriggle room".

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

So you assume that diagnosed ADD and ADHD in adults is also fabricated? I notice you're directing this mostly toward over medication of children. On this I completely agree with you. However to say all of it is made up is to paint with a pretty broad brush.

reply to post by kosmicjack


Again, my problem isn't that Skyfloating has such an opinion, nor that they are a moderator. It's that such an absolutist claim is being made with ZERO evidence by someone with at least some level of authority (and, ostensibly, respect) in this forum.

Obviously, it's not against the rules for them to make such a post, just like it's not against the rules for me to voice my concern over such a baseless, absolutist claim.

I have seen this same logic used on just about every medical issue where clinical observations are used for diagnosis, not laboratory findings. And it's not just with with mental disease. I have two of them, depression and fibromyalgia. Both are very real. Both will forever change my life. Both have been thoroughly bashed by non-medical commentors on various forums.
To make such a blanket claim without medical knowledge is not right. It's mean-spirited and rude.

ADHD is not the "active kid" disease.

It is a neurological disorder, and more a disease/disorder of the mind.

It really has little to do with hyperactivity.

Most girls who have it present with vastly different symptoms than little boys, including daydreaming, scatterbrainedness, messy rooms, disorganization. As a teen/adult, the disorder leads to impulsivity, sometimes sexual promiscuity, poor judgement, feelings that you are not good enough becuase of the disorder.

There is plenty of evidence stating this disease/disorder is real.

I do not understand how this thread is able to stand with no evidence presented to prove the theory postulated, that adhd does not exsist, and it is just active kids.

Active kids are normal. Hyperactive kids are normal.

It is when you have the other symptoms combined with the hyperactivity when you have a problem. The kids who truly have adhd you can tell when they are being treated or not.

www.chadd.org...

A nice start for some real information on the very real and often times life ruining disease/disorder of adhd.

Unless one is a DR one cannot say if anyone else has this, you cannot simply look at a kid or babysit him one night and up and decide that this child does or does not have adhd.

Teachers have absolutely NO business in the diagnosis equation either.

I would like to see more evidence that this disease does not exisit. There is plenty to say it does. With a title like this OP has, there really is little to substantiate the claim.

Interesting conversation.

Meh, Sky's just in the mood to get a rise out of everybody, methinks. Sky's the best.

Let me describe the first child I met with actual ADHD.

This is a true account, and my jaw was on the floor.

I rang the doorbell, and the parents answered. The THREE year old girl ran towards me, bumping into me, causing me to lose my balance, due to the running momentum she had going.

I stepped into the living room, and she ran and jumped over the back of the sofa, bounced off the sofa cushions, ran into the dining room, leapt upon a chair, and from there to the table top. She ran the length of the table, jumped onto a chair, onto the floor. Poof! She was gone, and as we heard screaming from another room, we dashed into the parents bedroom, where she had evidently pulled a bookcase over on herself, as she was trying to climb it. The parent's were in tears.

So yeah, it's real, and I hope this gives you a mental picture of what it actually looks like.

The child who blurts out answers in class without being called on, and shuffles his feet while sitting at his desk? Nada. Not usually. But nonetheless he will sometimes be medicated.

Just saying.

I know it's hard to be around unruly, challenging kids all day, and yes, some action should be taken to get behaviors under control, so teachers can do their jobs without constant disruptions. We ask far too much of teachers as it is.

But chemically restraining a child unnecessarily and without absolute justification, is not the answer.

And of course I know that teachers don't write prescriptions....doctors do, and parents have them filled.





[edit on 8/21/2010 by ladyinwaiting]

To this day I have a real problem with "blurting" and I am a forty one yr old woman.

To explain why I blurt.

I am afraid if I do not "blurt" out my thought when it pops in my head I will forget it.

Often times I do.

"Blurting" or chronic interrupting are classic symptoms of add.

There are two forms of the disorder/disease, btw. Many many girls are diagnosed with ADD, which is attention deficit disorder, without hyperactivity.

Often times, a child with ADD or ADHD will do something called HYPERFOCUS. Please look up this term and how it applies to the disease/disorder, it explains why someone might think because the child is deep into a video game or deep into a book, they cannot have the adhd! Wrong, so wrong.

It is wonderful to discuss ADHD and ADD, especially how it presents in women girls, as they are often times ignored until real problems have started in their lives.

I was in my 30s when I was diagnosed, and I take no medication for it. I write a lot of notes, and lose stuff a lot.

And Blurt a lot.

And am rather impulsive.

I work on it with CBT not medicine. Most kids woith adhd can use cbt as well but if it takes an adult years to master the techniques think of how difficult it may be to a child who is immersed in indocrination/schooling at the same time, expected to sit still and be quiet.

Medicating the add child is no different than medicating the diabetic child.

reply to post by Skyfloating

In the cases Ive seen it doesnt exist. Ive seen perfectly normal kids diagnosed as ill and made docile with pills.

this line alone gives you away Sky

try harder

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Careful.

You people are changing my mind.

Danger Will Robinson!

Im sorry I really am. but I really could not make it through the OP. For some reason all I could think about was cute little kittens and some crazy song I heard today on youtube.



www.belowtopsecret.com...

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

While I agree that psychiatic drugs (especially those for ADD/ADHD) are overprescribed, it is incredibly ignorant to use this as a basis to claim that the conditions simply don't exist.

He isn't saying the "condition" doesn't exist.

He is saying that it is a natural characteristic of children.

Some may display it more than other because of their personality, intelligence, and other variables but the point is that these children do not need to be made calm with drugs.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
"Blurting" or chronic interrupting are classic symptoms of add.

There are two forms of the disorder/disease, btw. Many many girls are diagnosed with ADD, which is attention deficit disorder, without hyperactivity.

Often times, a child with ADD or ADHD will do something called HYPERFOCUS. Please look up this term and how it applies to the disease/disorder, it explains why someone might think because the child is deep into a video game or deep into a book, they cannot have the adhd! Wrong, so wrong.

Woa. Well maybe I am add

I either hyperfocus else am daydreaming and aimlessly bouncing my head all around wherever I am. It makes people crack up because of how naive I look while doing it ... and I'm nearly 28 with a 19 year old babyface..

I've found that high-doses of nutrients really help me out. Have always been against pharmaceuticals, but taking niacin and ascorbic acid daily really improves my memory. I rarely blurt stuff out now, because I can keep it in working memory without a problem, usually. I've also learned little things to help out like imagining a picture which relates to the thought process as I internally say "remember". Then I can push it aside and listen, having recall easily when need be.

Also, I read on a forum once that the myers-briggs personality types including NT are the ones diagnosed with ADD/ADHD. That would be iNTp iNTj, eNTp, eNTj. I'm an INTP.

So basically I think it's ADD/ADHD is predominately determined by genetics but can be greatly influenced by environmental factors, such as nutrition, and toxic exposure.

Now, if we were precivilization times, out in the jungle, and needed to survive. No way would pilling us up help out, but as is, society deems it to be a disorder because it's thought that what's best for our interest to play by societies rules is to fit within a couple deviations of norm. Anything outside is wrong, an illness, and/or evil.

[edit on 21-8-2010 by unityemissions]

Originally posted by Skyfloating

You dont need any research to see that many of the kids labeled as "ADHD" are entirely fine...they're just not interested in sitting in a chair and shutting up for 7 hours straight.

Oh - now its many? Not all?

I find you to be a very irresponsible poster.

Its obvious you have never dealt with a child that truly does have difficulty under the umbrella ADHD.