where else shall mosques not be built?

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Explanation: I think they should build as many temples in the US as there are temples in Saudi Arabia. Oh wait a minute, temples are allowed in BOTH countries.

Personal Disclosure: Amazing how a single word that supercedes both other definitions can clarify the mess certain comments initiated!

Here is why!...
www.thefreedictionary.com...

church (chûrch) n. 1. A building for public, especially Christian worship. [note: not exclusively]

(Edited by OL to remove all unrequired definitions and also added the note above to the body of the text for clarity!)
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

mosque (msk) n. A Muslim house of worship.

(Edited by OL to remove unrequired etymology.)
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Both are clearly Temples!!!

encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com...

temple, edifice of worship
temple, edifice or sometimes merely an enclosed area dedicated to the worship of a deity and the enshrinement of holy objects connected with such worship. The temple has been employed in most of the world's religions. Although remains of Egyptian temples of c.2000 B.C. show well-defined architectural forms, it seems likely that temples were hewed in living rock at a still earlier age: the cave temples of Egypt, India, China, and the Mediterranean basin may be viewed as later developments of such primitive shrines.

Yes! So let whoever build temples wherever as long as no zoning laws are broken etc. and OH&S standards are upheld OK!

Originally posted by rubbertramp
i'm just wondering, there seems to be a lot of discussion about the ground zero mosque.
are there any other locations that people would be offended if a mosque was built?
the first place that comes to mind is the white house. would there be outrage? for all i know there may already be one within a short distance.

Let's turn your question around and ask ourselves;

Are there places in the Muslim world where other religions have no right to build temples?

Correct answer: Yes. In many Muslim countries (depending on the degree of Islamic fervor) it is illegal to build a non-muslim place of worship in proximity to a Mosque, Madrasa or other Islamic institution, or even in a neighborhood which is predominantly Muslim.

We're not talking practical decisions taken by city councils in order to regulate and control the city. No, it's considered an insult to Islam to erect or even maintain a non-Muslim place of worship in proximity to a Muslim community.

In Saudi Arabia, no churches or any other non-Muslim places of worship has a right to exist (I suppose it is the same thing in the Vatican), and as a Christian (or any other non-Muslim), you don't have a right to enter Mecca.

There's a word for that; it's called religious apartheid.

It doesn't mean that we should behave in the same manner - unless we support religious apartheid - but we should seriously think through our policy towards a religion that hides behind the Religious Freedom act every time it feels threatened, but shows nothing but contempt towards other religions wherever it is in majority.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by Heliocentric]

reply to post by Heliocentric

It doesn't mean that we should behave in the same manner - unless we support religious apartheid - but we should seriously think through our policy towards a religion that hides behind the Religious Freedom act every time it feels threatened, but shows nothing but contempt towards other religions wherever it is in majority.

Christianity? I'm confused.

That's any religion no matter what it is.

This topic doesn't belong on the top of ATS every single day. It is unworthy of ATS member contribution.

It belongs on the 1-way programming device known as the television, and in the form of articles in second rate newspapers, authored by wash-out half-assed "journalists" being pressured by their content supervisors to write something 'edgy' for attention.

I've only seen two sides to this stupendously moronic topic/argument.

1. You either don't give a crap, like most normal people. It's a damn community center, folks. It's not an Islamic doomsday device.

or

2. You're a complete anti-Liberty, anti-Critical Thinking buffoon. Just completely undesirable to me, and to those I associate with.

That's pretty much how I see it, and I hope it insults everyone in the latter category. I picked up the paper today, and in the editorial section there was a "debate" on the whole subject. I immediately recoiled, and scoffed, but was slightly delighted to realize that both of the editorials were in favor of "not giving a damn". However it was laden with many paragraphs as to tread ever-so-lightly, in order to not offend the overly ignorant mock-Christian conservative readers that so eloquently populate my newspaper's region.

I wish this would go away, as do I wish all the seasonal crap debates being used for cheap and petty political ammunition goes away as well. Yet another ridiculously ignorant and ridiculously wasteful ploy for distracting people from real issues.

At this point, I don't even recognize my country anymore. The people that I once knew, now completely scare me with their manipulated ignorance. Everyone around me seems to be transforming into an aggressive monster, shedding their former zombie-like existence in favor of not giving a damn about being so fascist and bigoted. It's starting to become "cool" to be a mindless fascist in America, and I've never felt so uncomfortable in my country before.

@dock9
If you think saudi arabias stance on regligous tolerance is so great, why don't you go live there?
Also: How many mosques are there in the Vatican?

@OP how about every other airport and inside the Pentagon?
Oh, no reason to build them. those allready exist.

reply to post by TheOneElectric



isn't that the whole argument? i let you but you don't let me?

how can i complain when something is missing in my house when people have free access to it?


what do i do to keep stuff from disappearing or people moving their console tv in?

talk or make better rules?

some of your your family are crack addicts, not all, do the math.

now what? i know they are and so do you.



i avoided using religion.

quote]Originally posted by TheOneElectric
reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Yeah, because Saudi Arabia is definitely the United States of America. That has to be the most lacking argument I have seen throughout this whole situation. Stop trying to justify your ignorance.


I dont understand this.

If you dont like/agree with islam, your ignorant?[

Really? Thats very inclusive of you.

Emeritus made a valid point. Counterpoint or back off.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by rubbertramp

 

I think they should build as many mosques in the US as there are churches in Saudi Arabia. Oh wait a minute, churches aren't allowed in Saudi Arabia.

That's not true at all. The late King Fahd's highest advisor was a Christian. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it "Professor". Just what ARE you professing anyway? Hate?

Originally posted by damwel

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by rubbertramp

 

I think they should build as many mosques in the US as there are churches in Saudi Arabia. Oh wait a minute, churches aren't allowed in Saudi Arabia.

That's not true at all. The late King Fahd's highest advisor was a Christian. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it "Professor". Just what ARE you professing anyway? Hate?

Check your facts before you post.

ALL non-muslim places of worship are forbidden in Saudi-Arabia, fact.

en.wikipedia.org...

Christians are not forbidden to enter Saudi-Arabia, but they are forbidden to enter Mecca.

So King Fadh had a Christian advisor, so what?

Saddam Hussein had a Christian advisor (Tarik Aziz), does that make him a good guy?


[edit on 16-8-2010 by Heliocentric]

im just going to chime in because i haven't seen anybody make the correction yet.

Iran is predominately shia muslim, as will be most countries harboring Christian church's.

find a Sunni nation that tolerates it, and hasnt been invaded by the US yet, and you get a cookie.

at least you tryed, now would somebody else like to attempt addressing Dock9's unanswered question?

because at this point its pretty much safe to assume he had a strong point.

the road to freedom may be a one way street, however the road to respect never is. America as a nation is not pressured to embrace ideals that clash with freedom and liberty. i give you communism as an example, in america you can be all for communism at an individual level but on a national level its in direct conflict with our Freedom/Liberty/independence therefore we even go as far as trade embargo's (over an ideal)

i see this situation only slightly different, sure build your (Sunni)mosques but until we see a few churches and synagogues over there in mecca dont expect much tolerance beyond sheer allowance.

The mosque near ground zero is a salt in the wound move. Nothing more. It's not illegal or immoral. It's simply intended as a jab at the non muslim community and it is working.

It's a declaration of 911 victory over the US.

Is it legal? Yes.

Is it right? Depends on who you are.

There are thousands of mosques in the US and more being built without any fuss, restriction or complaint.

This particular mosque is one of thousands but it is seen as being a slap in the face of the victims of 911.

As it is intended to be.

That's where the hate is.

Originally posted by LurkerMan

at least you tryed, now would somebody else like to attempt addressing Dock9's unanswered question?

because at this point its pretty much safe to assume he had a strong point.

He only has if he says that SAs stance on religous tolerance is a good model, and should be imported.
And as long as there are no mosques in the vatican, Medina and Mecca are actually in good company.
So yeah: If you think SA is doing the right thing when it comes to religous tolerance, why don't you move there?




[edit on 16-8-2010 by debunky]

Weird another thread about religion and mosques or churches. When can I be worm holed to a dimension that is religion-less? I know somewhere in the cosmos a similar me is on a similar website not reading about religion and which 'god' is better.

reply to post by badgerprints

There are thousands of mosques in the US and more being built without any fuss, restriction or complaint.

I am sorry, that is not true.

www.nytimes.com...

This particular mosque is one of thousands but it is seen as being a slap in the face of the victims of 911.

Apparently even the Muslim ones too. I guess that the people that worked in the twin towers that were Islamic don't deserve any kind of memorial because of some extremist asses who took Islam way too far right?

People somehow magically forgot that we aren't at war with Islam but we are instead at war with douche bags who cowardly hide behind Islam as a reason for their stupidity.

I think that some have purposely forgotten that fact and have decided to turn this issue into a political one for political gain, using fear as a weapon to further divide this country and try and score some easy votes.

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by whatukno

 

You say:

So, to answer the OP question, Mosques should be able to be built anywhere a Christian Church is able to be built

So tell me this:


How many Christian Churches are being constucted in muslim nations right now ?

How many Christian Churches have been constructed in muslim nations since the flood of muslims to the West commenced ?


How many Christian and other non-muslim places of worship have been desecrated by muslims in muslim lands ?

How many Christians and non-muslims have been slaughtered by muslims since the muslim invasion of the West commenced ?

Where -- within muslim nations --- are muslims screaming for the right of Christians and other non-muslims to erect places of worship in muslim lands

Please provide links to muslim forums where muslims are defending the right of non-muslims to erect places of worship in muslim lands

and please provide links to muslim politicians' insistence that non-muslims have the right to erect places of worship within muslim lands

i haven't made it through the entire thread yet, but what does this really have to do with america.
shall we begin living our lives by example of others?
this would be totally against what the founding fathers strove for.
by the way, if anyones interested, the founders did take muslims into consideration.
search mussleman, that was the name used back then.
a few letters i've read actually regard them as our 'mussleman brothers'.

Originally posted by rangersdad

Originally posted by rubbertramp

Originally posted by rangersdad
reply to post by rubbertramp

 

According to Google there is a secret Christian church in Mecca
until there is a Christian church built there and attendees are
allowed to worship God in that way, why should we allow a Mosque to be built in NY at the site of the WTC??

actually, i don't have much of a problem with the proposed mosque, unless what i believe is true about the funding coming from terrorists.

And what about the article saying that OUR tax dollars are
paying the Imam(sp?) to go to arab countries to solicit funds for
this mosque??

this is just more fuel for the fire.
adding to why i'm leaning towards the mosque not being built.
it's a political game at this point.
i don't jump to conclusions, and will completely make up my mind after the rest of the information about funding is out there.
many on this board seem to hate the msm, yet at the same time use the info provided by them to make a decision. i think there is still buckets of info to still discover.

I think they should be allowed to build Mosques where ever they purchase property. So their religion has been labled violent. Can I point out that the Church, protestant, christian, catholic... Etc, isn't all that innocent. How many people were killed in the inquisition in the name of god? How many "witches" were burned? How many cultures were killed because the church deemed them heathens and sinners. Its kinda being hypocritical isn't it? But that's my thoughts.

Originally posted by Heliocentric

Originally posted by rubbertramp
i'm just wondering, there seems to be a lot of discussion about the ground zero mosque.
are there any other locations that people would be offended if a mosque was built?
the first place that comes to mind is the white house. would there be outrage? for all i know there may already be one within a short distance.

Let's turn your question around and ask ourselves;

Are there places in the Muslim world where other religions have no right to build temples?

Correct answer: Yes. In many Muslim countries (depending on the degree of Islamic fervor) it is illegal to build a non-muslim place of worship in proximity to a Mosque, Madrasa or other Islamic institution, or even in a neighborhood which is predominantly Muslim.

We're not talking practical decisions taken by city councils in order to regulate and control the city. No, it's considered an insult to Islam to erect or even maintain a non-Muslim place of worship in proximity to a Muslim community.

In Saudi Arabia, no churches or any other non-Muslim places of worship has a right to exist (I suppose it is the same thing in the Vatican), and as a Christian (or any other non-Muslim), you don't have a right to enter Mecca.

There's a word for that; it's called religious apartheid.

It doesn't mean that we should behave in the same manner - unless we support religious apartheid - but we should seriously think through our policy towards a religion that hides behind the Religious Freedom act every time it feels threatened, but shows nothing but contempt towards other religions wherever it is in majority.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by Heliocentric]

this argument seems to be common.
and once again, when the day comes that america and americans live their lives exclusively due to how others live theirs it's over.
we are much better than that, this is why this country was founded in the first place, to get away from doing what others tell us to, and to create a country free of outside influence.
do you at all believe in leading by example, or shall we just worry about following the lead of other nations?

reply to post by rubbertramp

Explanation: S&F!

The distance is about 2.45km according to Google Earth!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9f7b0139688c.jpg[/atsimg]

Which is about 10x the distance that the soon to be Islamic community centre [mosque?] is situated from 9/11 ground zero!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e789ef3f5657.jpg[/atsimg]

Personal Disclosure: OL takes note of the large number of other temples [mostly Christian denominations] situated between both points A [mosque] and B [whitehouse/ground zero] sites in both pictures provided for comparison purposes!

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Saudi Arabia does not have a Constitution that mandates the freedom to practice any religion or none at all. What does it matter what SA does? The USA has a Constitution that guarantees the free expression of religion to everyone. That's the important thing here. Constitutionally, the Cordoba Center has every right to build its center with a mosque in it anywhere they choose. And what better way to prove to the world that the USA practices what it preaches than to not just permit the construction of the Cordoba Center a few blocks away from where the Twin Towers stood, but to celebrate the fact they are doing so. Heck if I had my way, part of the memorial to the destruction of the Towers would be a small multi-faith chapel with religious symbols from not just Christianity and Judism, but Islam, Shinto, Hinduism, Wicca, Baha'i, Buddhism, Taoism and every other "ism" there is.