Revelation; 144,000

reply to post by Tsaphan


All I can say is WOW!
You have really done your homework.

It isn't always easy to find Old Testament passages and bring them forward to New Testament applications.
Good job, Tsaphan.

I'm looking forward to threads created by you in this vein.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Excellent thread, DISRAELI.

Although numbers in the Bible do have great signifiance, I'm not sure I can agree with your interpretation that the 144,000 that are sealed are not necessarily Jewish.

The tribulation period, known as Jacobs trouble is for the Jews. I see it as a final chastisment for the Jews as well as punishment for Gentiles who have persecuted the Jews thoughout history. I believe that Israel is God's time clock and I believe that those that are sealed by God for that time period are there to preach to the Jews. God's word says they are from the twelve tribe of Israel, therefor I believe they are Jewish.

However:

As a scattered people, Jews have probably mingled with inhabitance of the nations they have dispersed into. Therefore any of us could possibly have Jewish blood and be descendants of a particular tribe.

I can find no real argument that the 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit except in 2Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Most scholars agree that "he who letteth" is the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, with God all things are possible.

Originally posted by 1PLA1
I can find no real argument that the 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit except in 2Thessalonians 2:7

My argument based on Ephesians ch1 v13 and 2 Corinthians ch1 v22 is that the Holy Spirit is the way that God seals.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by 1PLA1
I can find no real argument that the 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit except in 2Thessalonians 2:7

My argument based on Ephesians ch1 v13 and 2 Corinthians ch1 v22 is that the Holy Spirit is the way that God seals.

edit on 9-11-2012 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

Yes, that is why I said I have a hard time agruing against your arguement.

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

( did the winds of the earth stop blowing when you were sealed?)

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living EL: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our ELOHIYM in their foreheads. Rev 7:1-3

Again it is clear, the sealing taking place here happens during the Day of YHWH

John was shown a period of time, called the day of YHWH, the sealing of the 144,000 takes place during the Day of YHWH, thus it can NOT be the same sealing a person receives when they are saved.



And YHWH said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. Ez 9:4

Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary (Judgment begins at the House of Elohiym). Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. Ez 9:6

It will not be a mystery when the 144,000 are being sealed, the winds of the earth will not blow.

reply to post by 1PLA1


Are the 144 000 sealed of only Jewish descent? No. The 12 tribes have been spread across the globe and most have no memory of any connection to their true past, however there is no exclusion to who comprises the 144 000 elect Jewish or not. We have all been grafted into the vine of the Royal lineage.

The key is that there are 12 different kinds of fruit selected.

Inside the meanings of the names of the 12 Tribes are clues: Fruits

Judah praise or Praise the Lord
Reuben see, a son
Gad good fortune
Asher happy
Naphtali my struggle or obtained by wrestling
Manasseh causing forgetfulness
Simeon one who hears or hears and obeys
Levi attached or joined
Issachar reward
Zebulun honour or looking for a home
Joseph may God add
Benjamin son of the right hand

None of these tribes exists in our day in their pure genetic form. We have been amalgamated and spread throughout the globe, and those without Jewish descent have been grafted in.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

I responded to your point about "144,000", which is the subject of this thread.
The existence of God is the subject of other threads on this board, and that's where it can be discussed.

I cannot see how Revelations can be discussed as well as the number 144,000 which represents the number of Humans that would be taken up into Heaven at the time of the Rapture without discussing the possibility of the existence of a GOD.

I believe the two issues are intrinsically bonded. Split Infinity

reply to post by Tsaphan

I try very hard not to insult someones beliefs. But since this is a Discussion Board I will speak my thoughts even if they may anger some.

You have quoted the Bible in English and are using these words and interpreting their meaning as well as using these words as a ABSOLUTE TEMPLATE upon which you base your conclusions. The problem with this is that since the Bible has been translated HUNDREDS of times and revised just as many...the words you use as a Template are words that have been mistranslated many times as well.

As EXAMPLE...and even the VATICAN admits this to be true...Moses never Parted the RED SEA...he crossed the REED SEA...a marshy vegetation filled area where the Red Sea is close to the Med. Sea. The Vatican when asked why it does not change the Bible to it's true translation has responded as such....We admit that this is a mistranslation, however to change it to it's correct translation may confuse some of the faithful and possibly breed doubt.

There are HUNDREDS of mistranslations within the current version of the Bible as well as many Gospels such as the Gospel of Mary...Judas...etc...having been PURPOSELY LEFT OUT of the current Bible. This FACT leaves any Theory or Determination based on current Biblical Text as being very dubious in it's veracity.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I agree with those who have said that there are other threads to discuss the existence of God and the reliability and validity of the received texts...

But, to presume that i make conclusions based on English Translations is simply wrong.

My first post on ATS

B'reshyt bara Elohiym ET haShamayim w-et haErets

In the beginning Elohiym (Aleph Taw) created the heaven and the earth. = 2701 (37x73) ordinal x standard gematria of Hhet kaph mem hey - Hokmah / Wisdom

Bet Resh Aleph Shin Yad Taw - In the beginning

Bet_ The Pictograph (P.) is a House and when Bet prefixes a word - In, by, on

Bet-Resh the first two letters of scripture together spell Bar - Son H1247 – P. head of man Resh - *First

The First three letters together Bet-Resh-Aleph spell Bara - Created H1254 the second word in the scriptures - P. Ox - Strength, Power

In * Beginning House Son Created > Resh-Aleph-Shin spells Resh or Rosh - Head, *Beginning H7218

Shin_Sharp, Press –H8127 P. Two Teeth, the Root is H8150 c. Pierce

Shin-Yad_Shay – Gift, Present H7862 P. Arm – Yad

Shin Yad Taw - shyt(h) – Set, Appointed H7896 P. Cross – Sign

In beginning House Son created, two arm gift appointed cross

Hebrews 1:8-10, John 1:3, Col 2:16 – YESHUAH

רֵאשִׁית Resh Aleph Shin Yad Taw – reshyt – *Beginning, Firstfruits H7225

אשִׁ Aleph Shin = esh – Fire, burning H784 Yad –Shin, Yesh Exist, is, be H3426

Aleph – Taw = ET > First and Last

In beginning House Son Created Gift pierced Arms Gift appointed Cross/sign Aleph - Taw

In the beginning was the Word John 1:1 Bet Resh Aleph Shin Yad Taw


Bet - Son

Resh - Ruach Spirit

Aleph & Bet - Ab Father

YHWH Yad Hey Waw Hey = Arm Behold Nail Behold

www.ancient-hebrew.org...

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure: Is 46:10

Next time you assume something, Don't

Praying that YAH opens your eyes

Shalom

reply to post by Tsaphan


In the interest of having an informative debate I will take you at your word. I was not per say just speaking about the Bible although my words were as such. I was using this as an example that when it comes to Religious Text of any kind...what information we read that is provided by those who have translated or even published a form of that translation...cannot be used as a reliable source of data to formulate Concrete Theory.

It is in the very nature of Religious Text that not only how it has been translated but the actual true translation as well must be looked at as opinion of events. If I were to write that on November 8th 2012...I saw an Alien Craft in the sky above New England and described this event...even if what I have said were fact...it still could not be taken as fact by someone 2000 years later without adequate evidence being documented as well as possible physical proof still in existence.

It is from this perspective I reply to you. I am not an Atheist but am an Agnostic. I do believe in some form of Spirituality as I have seen things that I have investigated which have opened my eyes as being a skeptic...my investigation of what I witnesses was thorough and scientific. Still...there was no other possible explanation to describe what I have seen other than something that was by it's nature...telling me that there is more going on than what people realize and what is going on is far greater and stranger than any form of Religious Belief.

In my investigation I have come to this conclusion. Human Beings are not sufficiently evolved to understand what exactly Spirituality really is or means as well as what people have convinced themselves is GOD is far greater in it's scope as well as far more complex than any Religious description has ever made.

It took a skeptic such as myself some time to come to terms with this...or rather...be able to LIVE with this knowledge as I do not believe I will EVER come to terms with it. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity.


I cannot see how Revelations can be discussed as well as the number 144,000 which represents the number of Humans that would be taken up into Heaven at the time of the Rapture without discussing the possibility of the existence of a GOD.

In the first place, I don't believe in "the Rapture", and neither do you, so there is no need to bring it in.
These Revelation threads are about the intended meaning of specific passages, and in this case Revelation ch7.
All religious topics have the existence of God in the background, and for that very reason it would be impossible to focus on specifictopics unless it is left there.
That is the advice of the moderator who wrote the attached on a sticky thread in the Theology forum.

Originally posted by dbates
... We can't begin to truly discuss these topics if we're constantly arguing about if God is real or not.

If you have questions that deal with the existence of God or want to ask if Mohammed actually was a real person or a myth, then please start a new discussion with a meaningful, appropriate title and you may then dominate a new discussion with this theme in mind. Please do not interject into deeper religious topics the question of the reality of a higher being? ..

To sum things up. Let's stay on topic and allow discussions to take place without constant interference.

Thanks.

You see? It's all about being "on topic", a fairly easy concept to understand.
However, bumping the thread brings the OP to the attention of more people, which suits my purposes in a different way.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I don't think you are quite getting me. It is not my intention to argue the existence of a GOD. My statement has to do with faulty LOGIC. It is in this manner I post as to use data that cannot be accepted as a Reality...any Theories or Concepts derived from this data are essentially flawed.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

The concept of being "on-topic" still applies.
This is a discussion about the intended meaning of a particular passage.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I am well aware of that. As I have said. It is impossible to form a concept about a passages true meaning if the passage itself cannot be realistically counted upon to be what it was originally intended to be.
Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

What you are saying is that the meaning of the passage cannot be discussed.
In that case, there is no need for you to enter into this discussion.
You can move into a different thread and discuss something else.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I am not saying that at all. All I am saying is that in discussing these passages it would be prudent to state things such as...If this passage is a true translation of the original text...then the author of it was perhaps relating it to this or that or these possible events.

You are dealing in ABSOLUTES. This is not possible. The passages cannot be definitively proven thus Absolutes cannot be applied. But you are right. I am getting nit picky with logic. Enjoy your posting.

Split Infinity

reply to post by DISRAELI


My response to the claims made about the year 2012 was that I could see no prophetic significance in the date.
This position seems to have been vindicated.

PS I note with some bemusement that at least three of the members who entered the argument after that previous post have since been banned.
Evidently there's a high rate of attrition amongst people who get interested in this kind of topic.

A reminder because of recent interest in Revelation.

This series was being run ten years ago. Perhaps now it is becoming topical again.

I see your line of inquirer has lead you to interpret the 144,000 as a symbolic number, encompassing the fullfness of God's Kindgom, believers in Christ. But does this interpretation account for all of the data?

What about the rapture -- pretribulation to be exact? Have you considered the believers will be taken out of the world before the tribulation -- as a few places in the NT suggest it is possible - asking to pray so you may escape the tribulation or as the Church of Philedelphia will not see the tribulation.

If the Pretribulation is correct, then your symbolic intrepretation might not be true, as you stated it. It could still be those left behind but have come to the faith, etc.

I was interested how you would address this idea, as it seemingly conflicts with your notion, which I'm admittadly still up in the air on, for the most part. I'd like to believe in pretribulation, but even the first christians were terribly persecuted -- eaten alive by lions in gladiator rings for sport -- so, I think it is profoundly important to be hopeful for the best, but prepared for the worst - which would take a considerable amount faith and believe, and empowerment of the holy spirit to overcome the fear of death. Do you believe enough to die? Is there no doubt in your mind or heart at all? Will there be peace and joy staring into the storm?

Can you face the lion headon?

Thank God for His mercy, for Christ, Yehoshua (Yahwehs Salvation) himself praid, "do not put us to the test".

Scary stuff to consider the tribulation to be even meant for believers. May God grant us wisdom and discernment to all the Kingdom, in Jesus's name, for the sake of His own Glory. Amen.