Revelation; 144,000

Originally posted by DISRAELI

I take your point that 144,000,taken literally, is an absurd number.

That's not entirely true. God can use that number anytime he pleases to stress the importance of secularity. Take Christians and Muslims, add some bad feelings, and those 144,000 are on their way to heaven:
articles.orlandosentinel.com...

Originally posted by SyntheticPerception
It still stands that if the prophets of the old were to show up in the world today, we would try to medicate them.

That kind of diagnosis is not new, but was already happening in the old world;
"Paul, your great learning is turning you mad"- Acts ch26 v24

If I correctly take your drift, I think what you're really interested in is the converse argument; "There are experiences in the modern world being rejected as "mental" which ought to be recognised as spiritual".
To which I would have to comment- If some of these experiences are spiritual, it doesn't follow that all of them are.
Hence the need for some kind of criteria (perhaps this is what the "gift of discernment" was for).

I've already suggested looking at whether the visions are "in phase" with the Bible. Much even of Revelation is a more visual presentation of information which can be found in the rest of the Bible.
When George Bernard Shaw is talking about Saint Joan, in his Preface to the play, his comment is that she is to be judged sane, despite the voices, because what the voices were telling her was perfectly rational.
Forty years ago, a good friend of mine was telling me about some visions she had been given. I believe those visions because a) They were giving a rational message, in symbolic form b) They were "in phase" with the God of the Bible, and c) I know that person very well and trust her absolutely.
On the other hand, I reject outright messages purporting to come from the Virgin Mary, because they give Mary a status which is decidedly "out of phase" with the Bible, as is the kind of behaviour they tend to recommend.
So the actual content of the visions, and the existence of a close relationship between the visionary and God, have much to say about whether they are to be accepted as genuinely spiritual.

Originally posted by Tsaphan
The task of the 144,000 is to shepherd the assemblies in the Greater Exodus, call them the Moses Company

In the OP interpretation (the number being symbolic) they are themselves the whole of the "Greater Exodus".

to me the 144,000 are the decedents of the twelve tribes, 12,000 form each, now if we are to say they are here on earth then there must be decedents of the tribe of the Levites, thus making the 12 tribes.
It also stands to reason that they must come form the 4 winds , this being the 4 directions of the earth, 4 tribes form each, each representing the 12 gates of heaven. thus to me making them the guides to the gates of heaven.
It could also be that the 144,000 are defenders of the gates.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Tsaphan
The task of the 144,000 is to shepherd the assemblies in the Greater Exodus, call them the Moses Company

In the OP interpretation (the number being symbolic) they are themselves the whole of the "Greater Exodus".

144,000 sealed, then the great multitude that can not be numbered

In Obadiah 21, it is written that Liberators, Deliverers will come and then the Kingdom will be YHWH's = YESHUA will set His feet upon the mount of Olives

Who are these Deliverers, if they are not the 144,000

John clearly numbers the 144,000 > 12,000 from each tribe

The Great Multitude can not be numbered, that return to the land in the "Greater Exodus"

144,000 can not be symbolic of a multitude that can not be numbered..

Originally posted by Tsaphan
144,000 can not be symbolic of a multitude that can not be numbered..

They can, because calling them 144,000 is not "numbering" them.
I argued in the OP (under the heading "Who?") that this is a symbolic number, carrying the meaning "The fullness of God's people occupying the fullness of God's world".
There is no reason why "the fullness of God's people" should not also be the "multitude that cannot be numbered".

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Tsaphan
144,000 can not be symbolic of a multitude that can not be numbered..

They can, because calling them 144,000 is not "numbering" them.
I argued in the OP (under the heading "Who?") that this is a symbolic number, carrying the meaning "The fullness of God's people occupying the fullness of God's world".
There is no reason why "the fullness of God's people" should not also be the "multitude that cannot be numbered".

That which has been is now; and that which is to be has already been; and ELOHIYM requires that which is past. Ecc 3:15

Look to the past to see the future, How YHWH did it in the past, Is how He will do it in the future

Moses and Aaron were deliverers that led One Assembly out of Egypt, the Greater Exodus is like He Did it in the past but this Time, the Whole Earth

And YHWH will create upon every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and upon Her Assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a chuppah. Is 4:5

According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I show unto him marvellous things.

The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf. Micah 7:15-16

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the ADONAY shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Is 11:11-12

As I live, saith ADONAY YHWH, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you Face to face. Ez 20:33-35

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man. Lu 21:36

The Woman with the twelve stars/ Tribes of Israel

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of ELOHIYM, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:6,14

You have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself. Ex 19:4


Was Everyone a Deliverer when YHWH led His people by Moses and Aaron out of Egypt ? No, But many died because they rebelled against their authority, and just because you come out in an assembly, It doesn't mean you will enter the Dabar Land.

And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am YHWH. Ez 20:38

As He did it in the past, Is how He will do it in the Future

And Deliverers shall come up on Mount Zion to judge the mount of esau; and the kingdom shall be YHWH's. Ob 21

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 1 Cor 10:11

When YHWH shall build up Zion, He shall appear in His glory. Ps 102:16



Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Originally posted by Tsaphan
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

I refer you to my thread "revelation; The Church Triumphant" for the relationship between this group and the previous group.
Briefly, the key to understanding what is going on can be found in Ephesians.
Paul tells his readers that "You also, who have heard the word of truth...were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit"- Ephesians ch1 v13
Then he tells the same people that God has raised them up with Christ "and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"- Ephesians ch2 v6. "Made us sit", you must notice, not "will make us sit". In other words, we are already "in the heavenly places" at the same time as living here on earth.
That is exactly what is happening in Revelation ch6. God's people have been sealed (which must mean "sealed with the Holy Spirit") in vv4-8, and consequently the same people immediately appear "in the heavenly places" in vv9-11,present in heaven at the same time as they are living on earth .For confirmation that they are the same group, compare ch14 v1, which identifies the "144,000" as the group present in heaven in the company of the Lamb.

What are you trying to say in 5 short sentences?

reply to post by r2d246

One sentence will do it.
In Revelation ch7, "144,000" is a symbolic number which carries the meaning "The fullness of God's people occupying the fullness of God's world".
That sentence can be found in the OP, as well as the lines of argument to which I will refer you if you ask me to justify that conclusion.

reply to post by r2d246

The predictive value of the text in the Bible that reaches to the modern times cannot be obviously accepted by the Christians who have been taught otherwise.

The Book of Revelation is the last the 27th book of the Catholic Bible and the text is very particular to the future. It's not easy to form associations in that text, as much as it is not easy to extrapolate into the future. The mentioning of 144,000 people in the in the 27th book of the Bible indirectly leads to the 27th state of the Union, which is Florida. That means the clue what that number refers to in the modern times must come from Florida. In this case, it was The Orlando Sentinel that mentioned the number. Here it is once again:
articles.orlandosentinel.com...

Christians vs. Muslims - and what else is new? Are these really modern times we are living in?

If some folks were not poisoned by religious dogma, they would not believe that God exists, but they would assume it is so and would look at the following identity with an open-minded attitude:

CIVI(L = L)EBANON
WA(R = R)EVELATION

If the text in the Bible entirely refers to the events factually or symbolically taking place in the Biblical times, please take the Bible and move back to those times. There is no need to force the religious excitement of the past on the future; there is no place for religion-fueled wars in our times. We got enough of those secular ones.

Revelation is covered more completely at the attached location;
Revelation; Project complete

reply to post by DISRAELI


Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one Head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1:11

And other sheep (House of Israel) I have, which are not of this fold (House of Judah): them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, and One Shepherd.

Therefore doth my Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again. John 10:16-17

YESHUA said His Father loved Him because He lay down His life for Two Folds

For finding fault with them, (not His Torah) He saith, Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Hebrews 8:8

Paul tells the Ephesians that Formerly they were gentiles, and In Messiah they are Citizens of Israel 2:11-12

He tells the Galatians that in Messiah they are the Seed of Abraham... Gal 3:29, Is 41:8 But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My Friend.

YESHUA made it clear there will be those called the greatest in His Kingdom and those who are the Least in His Kingdom... Matt 5:17

Upon salvation the believer is sealed by the Ruach haKodesh, but that sealing does not quarantee they will be accounted worthy to escape and stand before the Son of Man as did the fathers in the wilderness, during the Great Tribulation (the evil), the sealing of the 144,000 is likened unto the sealing of those who mourned and wept over the abominations done in His Name at Yerushalayim.

Those who teach a pre-trib rapture, YAH knew beforehand, Least in His Kingdom, will not escape the Tribulation.

All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor precede us. Amos 9:10, compare John 17:15, 20, Proverbs 10:30

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me: seeing thou hast forgotten the Torah of thy ELOHIYM, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

Those who forget the past, reject the knowledge of the Torah. will be least in His Kingdom, and will not be a Priest to Him

Yeshua spoke in Parables, The Torah is a Parable

Give ear, O My people, to My Torah: incline your ears to the words of My mouth.

I will open My mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Ps 78:1-2

In Exile, our harps we hang upon the willows.

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof...Psalms 137:1-2

Those who get the victory over the beast and the beast system, have Haarps, have returned to the Land and they sing the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb..

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of ELOHIYM.

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of ELOHIYM, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, ADONAY EL SHADDAY; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Rev 15:2-3

To the Torah and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Is 8:20

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the Torah, even his prayer shall be abomination Proverbs 28:9

Most believers don't know why Yeshua came the first time, let alone what He said He would do when He returns to set up His Kingdom.

Shalom

As mentioned above, The Revelation is very unambiguously clear that the 144,000 are 12,000 PURE MEN from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. So unless you're a Jewish virgin male, you will simply not be among that number.

You can fudge and rationalize and draw and "interpret" quotes from other parts of the Bible like a blasphemous heathen to try and find a loophole for that, but that's the bottom line.

Don't worry though. You can tough it out with the rest of us.

reply to post by Funkydung
I believe the name of God is: Lord=the Father, Jesus=the son, and Christ=the Holy Spirit. The name of God is the Lord Jesus Christ. The triune name of God. Peace to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Blue Shift
As mentioned above, The Revelation is very unambiguously clear that the 144,000 are 12,000 PURE MEN from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. So unless you're a Jewish virgin male, you will simply not be among that number.

I'm sure I answered that point at the time it was made.
That claim is nonsense, because Revelation is a book full of symbolism, and only the spiritually blind will fail to allow for that.
The number is symbolic, the belonging to "Israel" is symbolic, and the "chastity" is symbolic (it is the counterpart of the spiriitual "fornication" of the Harlot).
Therefore it is not necessary to be Jewish, male, literally virgin, or one of a limited number.

There's a lot of things in Revelations that aren't fully understood and maybe it's not meant to be at this time

It clearly states in the Book of Revelation, the 144,000 are all virgins. Only virgins can sing the song they sing it talks about. Do I claim to know what it all means? No, and anyone who claims such I claim are talking out of their bum. I find the subject interesting but I personally believe one must POSSESS the GIFT of PROPHECY to read and UNDERSTAND that which was written by the GIFT of PROPHECY.

Everyone may have a bit of a gift of personal prophecy, where they can choose and foresee their own lives a little bit, but the gift of prophecy that was used to write the book of Revelation is not the same as this, it is a gift only prophets have, Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, these type of men could likely understand the words John wrote, I do not believe a single prophet such as those men have ever posted on these forums. The reason the book of Revelation is locked, coded with the code that cannot be unlocked without the true Gift of Prophecy is because God must raise up a Prophet, the likes of the Prophets of old, and that man will tell us what the book means by God's will. I believe this is the only way we will know for sure beforehand, excepting the obvious points in the book which are not symbolic, which there are few, such as, the world Vs. Israel, ww3? I doubt it, it may be ww6 for all we know, might as well be called wwAnti-Israel. For those too lazy to read, hordes and hordes outnumbering those in Israel assault Israel for months and months and yet Israel stands strong, there are 2 holy men in Israel protecting the city by God's will, and equally by God's will he allows the 2 holy men to die, these 2 men are prophets, they have this power of prophecy, the 2 men are dead in the streets for 3 days, the world will see them John writes, John seeing that their deaths will be seen on TVs worldwide & the internet (this is the most agreed upon modern day interpretation), they will rise and be resurrected after 3 days or on the 3rd day, it will shock and frighten those who murdered them, and this marks the beginning of the return of the Christ.

As for the ultra-symbolic stuff in the book of Revelation? I do not claim to be able to decipher it, and anyone who claims it is truly God's word written by the gift of Prophecy should respect the fact that they do not have this gift and therefore cannot fully successfully understand & comprehend it all let alone explain it all.

Originally posted by Razimus
It clearly states in the Book of Revelation, the 144,000 are all virgins.

It also clearly states in ch1 that Jesus was standing with a sword in his mouth, and in ch5 that he was standing in the shape of a lamb which had been slain.
Only the spiritually blind do not allow for the fact that there are metaphors in these things.
The "chastity" is a metaphor for spiritual fidelity, just as the "fornication" of Babylon is a metaphor for spiritual infidelity.

but I personally believe one must POSSESS the GIFT of PROPHECY to read and UNDERSTAND that which was written by the GIFT of PROPHECY.

That claim would make prophecy a waste of time, because the whole point of prophecy is communication.
The purpose of prophecy is to transmit a message to people who are not prophets.
The reading of Revelation is actually easier than it looks, to anyone who is familiar with the Old Testament and with enough common sense to recognise a metaphor when they see one (though both qualities are in short supply nowadays).
I refer you to the "Revelation; Project complete" thread which was linked in a previous post.

I will go and return to My place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek My face: in their affliction they will seek Me early....After two days He will revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight. Hosea 5:15,6:2

In order to return to His place, YHWH must have left His place !

When did YHWH leave His place ?

Who, being in the form of ELOHIYM, thought it not robbery to be equal with EL:

But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Phil 2:6-7

YHWH left His place when He took upon flesh and gave Himself a ransom for many.

And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Phil 2:8

After Two Days

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with YHWH as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet 3:8

YHWH YESHUA prophesied that He would return to His place for 2,000 years

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:22

After a long time the Adonay of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Matisyahu 25:19



For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. Ez 4:5

A Year for a Day.... 390 years

And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. Lev 26:18

And if ye walk contrary unto Me, and will not hearken unto Me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. 26:21

Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. 26:24

Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 26:28

390 years x 7 = 2730 years

The House of Israel, the Northern Kingdom was uprooted from the land completely by assyria in 721 B.C.

721 B.C + 2009 A.D. = 2730 Years = Completed



And he shall (Strengthen - gawbar) the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 9:27

Gawbar –Strengthen – In order to strengthen the covenant with (many – rab, adjective), it must already exist… It is not he makes the covenant as has been taught.

From Obama’s speech at the Turkish Parliament, April 6, 2009

The United States strongly supports the goal of two states,Israel and Palestine, living side by side in Peace and Security (Joel 3:2, 1 Thess 5:3)

That is a goal that the parties agreed to in the Road map and at Annapolis

From Obama’s speech at Cairo University, June 4, 2009 – Titled: Obama speaks to the Muslim world > In the audience were 10 Members of the Muslim Brotherhood that received official invites

The only resolution is for the aspirations of both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and Palestinians each live in peace and security.

The obligations that the parties have agreed to under the Road Map are clear

These quotes are just a small portion of the words Obama spoke against the land of Israel and the Elohiym of Abraham Isaac and Yacob in his speeches to the king of the north and the king of the south.

On Tishri 21 2009, BHO was given the Nobel Peace Prize for Strengthening the covenant with many, The roadmap to peace on the Seventh Day of the feast of Tabernacles, Hoshanah Rabbah – The Final sealing of Judgment.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a Prize was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Rev 6:2

Stephanos/Greek – Prize given in public ceremony

10.09.2009 / Tishri 21 + 1260 days = Abib 11, 3/22/2013 – when you see the Abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet - – Rev 12:6, 14, 13:5,Daniel 12:1, Ezek 20:33-38, Is 4:5-6

Abib 11, 2013 is The Sixth day of the week And the second/third day of Spring.

But Pray that your flight be not in winter neither on the sabbath day – Matt 24:20

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:11

Abib 11, 2013 + 1290 days = YOM TERUAH – Tishri 1 – The Feast of Trumpets

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan 12:12

Tishri 1 + 45 days = Bul 15

And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it 1 Kings 6:38

Rev 3:3 , those who do not watch, will not know the hour,