The hypocritical opposition against the NY mosque

What many here seem to not realize is that Islam is a complex way of life, of which religion is but a small part. That they choose to run their culture just like it was in the 18th century is just crazy. They only complain about "religious freedom" when it comes to doing something they want to do.

The mosque will be seen far and wide as a monument to the attack, and a partial victory against what they see as the evil America. That they want to name it Cordoba House says all you need to know.

I made it to ground zero in 2003 and sprayed the site with salt and pigs blood (about 20 gallons) so to hell with them. Someone there needs to do the same if/when they build the new building. Any "religion" that condones raping of women and children, stoning of women, and all the other backwards thinking they live by has a leader that is Satan.... not some "God."

If it's going to be a war memorial, then it should be ours, not theirs, since part of the landing gear of one of the planes crashed through the roof.)

There are already 23 mosques in New York, they don't need another. Better yet, they should convert the U.N. building to one since they are so pro-Islam. I'm surprised there aren't minarets on the U.N. building already.

I just wanted to say I completely agree with the OP.

America was founded on religious freedom. That is why we are here. We can't just turn around and say that only certain religions get freedom... it's completely hypocritical, but not only that, it's completely un-American! The Constitution gives the right to build this mosque, so all Americans should be happy. (A similar thing is when so-called America-lovers get all pissy when someone burns the Flag. It's a Constitutional right to burn the flag, so you should be happy that someone is exercising their rights. It's the most American thing we can do, is to exercise our rights.)

So my point is that all of the Christian fundamentalist patriots out there who oppose this mosque... you obviously are prejudiced bigots, because if you looked at this from a standpoint of American values and freedoms, you would see that this is one of the most American things that can be done!

reply to post by Southern Guardian

If anything one of the core goals of those hijackers that day and even many christians among the opposition to this mosque was to maintain division because without division,

I agree fully. And if anything the opposition to Mosques around our country just fuels the fire of the terrorists even more. They might hear stories of our political upheaval and use that to gain recruits by pointing out how hypocritical it is. All this division is making it easier for them.

Love thy neighbor should apply to all mankind, it shouldn't exclude Muslims, so seeing this kind of opposition coming mainly from Christians is disheartening to say the least.

I do feel sorry for Obama though, as much as I applaud him for coming down on the Constitutionally correct side of the issue I think he would have done well to keep his mouth shut about it. All the Obama haters are frothing at the mouth about his stance. (A note here that I am not an Obama supporter but at the same time I don't irrationally dislike the man or his policies like many seem to)

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

It's a sensitivity issue. If Christian Extremists blew up a seat of power in Islam and non extreme Christians knew it would be an unpopular move to build a Christian church near the site, and cause strife and dissension they would not build it.

[edit on 14-8-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

They (Christians) would not regard having a Qur'an burning session as a cause of strife and tension it seems. Yes, very sensitive indeed.

Incidentally the WTC buildings were not a seat of power. They were a seat of international commerce. According to the listing people of 90 distinct nationalities lost their lives. I'm guessing you believe they were all Christians ?

Ignorance is not an excuse. Terrorists and extremists like to justify their actions, in this case by dedicating their deaths to a specific religion.
Does not make every Muslim a terrorist. Any more than the I.R.A.'s bombing campaigns made every Irishman a terrorist.

Originally posted by L1U2C3I4F5E6R
I have only been registered on here for half a day and already I have seen a large amount of post concerning this Mosque. Why do people repeat posts and why do people keep posting multiple threads on the topic of this building?

Its a shame to waste so many views spread out over a few different but really the same posts.

This Mosque is really becoming a thorn in the side of people. Maybe it needs to be looked at again by the people who have the power to make these types of calls. I think the people should be the ones to vote and then do. end it soon!!

that vote would be interesting.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

that vote would be interesting.

No, that vote would be wrong. A vote will not decide whether someone has the Constitutional right to build a church on private property. Rights are not to be voted on, because they are rights, we get them for being citizens and nothing more and they do not change depending on the whims of the people at any given time.

Originally posted by Noncompatible
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

You do of course realize that your attempt to to define Christians could just as easily be used from the other side of the "fence".

Weaksauce, try again.

I made a long post on this very subject, the PC police with their liberal agenda, will have cut off their nose to spite their own face,

If and when Islam becomes the rule, there wont be a PC correct liberal agenda, because the religion of Islam is not liberal, all the things the PC police have fought for, gay marriage, abortion, yada yada, fill in the blanks, Islam does not embrace those same rights.

BTW

Christianity has reformed beyond recognition of what it once was.

I suppose, if we were to be fair, then if people don't want this mosque to be put up, then the only fair thing would be to tare down every house of worship across the united states. No mosques, no churches, no synagogues, nothing. Outlaw religion altogether.

If one cannot have that freedom, then I suppose no one should have that freedom.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix

I am a Christian and I disagree with the Mosque. If this was just a regular mosque I would have no problem with it being built so close to the 911 site. But there are several issues here. It is a large "center for learning" that any Muslim affiliation will be able to use for what ever they want - this means the extremists can use it too.

The people raising money for and building the center has already had ties to the extremists Muslin movement. This is well documented.

I don't understand why people don't see this for what it is,

People don't oppose mosques, they oppose this location because they are suspicious,


I think we need a good healthy dose of fear and suspicion.

Fear is a human instinct and we have it for a reason.



artiea.newsvine.com... wives-to-refuse-sex

[edit on 123131p://bSunday2010 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by Stormdancer777


I am afraid it's any mosque no matter where it's being built that is causing controversy.

www.nytimes.com...

Not only in New York, but anywhere they plan on building a mosque, people are flipping out about it.

This shows me a problem in America.

American's not understanding who the enemy really is. The enemy isn't Islam, the enemy is douche bag extremists who hide behind Islam to perpetrate horrible horrible crimes against humanity.

Originally posted by zappafan1
I made it to ground zero in 2003 and sprayed the site with salt and pigs blood (about 20 gallons) so to hell with them.

Why would you do this on a site where almost 3000 Americans died? On your proclaimed war memorial to these Americans?

Why do you go back 1400 years to seek your scary inferences to Cordoba and not back 700 years when all faiths lived and coexisted peacefully in an advanced city for its time?

[edit on 8/15/2010 by ~Lucidity]

I'm not against this mosque being built in this location because I'm anti-islamic, I'm against it because I think it is just outright disrespectful.

Religion, the Islamic religion, played a role in the attacks since the men who hijacked those planes did so in the name of Islam. (Before you flame me, I know they were extremists who do not represent the religion as a whole.)

So I'm sorry, but why would the people behind this mosque think this was a good idea? I mean if they were looking to improve the image of their faith in America, they are going about it all wrong. Instead of smacking us in the face, why don't they try to show some goodwill, maybe use the property to remember the people lost that day. Heck, build a garden, NY City could use some more green space.

Originally posted by lynn112
I'm not against this mosque being built in this location because I'm anti-islamic, I'm against it because I think it is just outright disrespectful.

So by being a muslim you are being disrespectful to those who died on 9/11 and you sympathize with the 19 hijackers? Right. I mean I just showed the tip of the ice berg for the actions caused by christians over the last millenia and yet for some reason they get a pass in your eyes?

Religion, the Islamic religion, played a role in the attacks since the men who hijacked those planes did so in the name of Islam.

Religion played a role in the invasion of Iraq, Religion plays a role in us sending billions of dollars to Israel a year. Religion played a role in the holocast, religion plays a major role on our laws. The fact is there have many acts committed in the name of one religion. Christianity is no exception, Judiasm is no exception.

(Before you flame me, I know they were extremists who do not represent the religion as a whole.)

Exactly, and yet you still insist that you oppose the mosque being built because islam is a disgrace to those who died on 9/11? Maybe we should ban all prayers carried out by soldiers because christianity influenced their sending off to Iraq to their deaths? Maybe we should ban christian churches from having any weapons since they have real habit of going into clinics and buildings and shooting up the place? I mean that is your logic right there and all I see is this attempt from you to water it down by acting as if you 'understand' my point. If you really agreed that these extremists did not represent the religion as a whole, you would not automatically link the mosque and all those future muslim attendees as some insult to the world trade center.

So I'm sorry, but why would the people behind this mosque think this was a good idea?

Well Im sorry, that Mosque will be built there regardless of how you feel about it and it is something people like you will just have to live with.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
I made a long post on this very subject, the PC police with their liberal agenda,

You made a very long post complaining about why nobody prevented these people from freely exercising their religion. There is nothing PC about upholding the rights of americans.

If and when Islam becomes the rule

A mosque going up an all of a sudden its then end of the world. I thought the world was going to end last year?

there wont be a PC correct liberal agenda,

So the constitution is part of some correct liberal agenda as well now right?

Yep.

Great thread, Southern. I agree with you completely.

What I'm seeing here - and I see it over and over again - is when people don't like something, they justify it's "wrongness" any way they can. I mean... look at the founding principles of this nation. Freedom, independence, equality, freedom of religion and separation of church and state.

When the separation of church and state protects Christianity, these people are all for it, but when it protects a religion they don't approve of, for whatever reason, suddenly it's wrong somehow. And they either don't see the hypocrisy or don't care.

Well, it doesn't work like that and any 4th grader knows that. What's good for the goose...

What I would like to know from the people who are against this mosque... What do you think should be done to stop it? Are you saying that the city council should be overruled somehow? Should the law step in? What should be done to stop this? Because if it's ANY legal action, that goes against the First Amendment.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by lynn112
I'm not against this mosque being built in this location because I'm anti-islamic, I'm against it because I think it is just outright disrespectful.

So by being a muslim you are being disrespectful to those who died on 9/11 and you sympathize with the 19 hijackers? Right. I mean I just showed the tip of the ice berg for the actions caused by christians over the last millenia and yet for some reason they get a pass in your eyes?

Religion, the Islamic religion, played a role in the attacks since the men who hijacked those planes did so in the name of Islam.

Religion played a role in the invasion of Iraq, Religion plays a role in us sending billions of dollars to Israel a year. Religion played a role in the holocast, religion plays a major role on our laws. The fact is there have many acts committed in the name of one religion. Christianity is no exception, Judiasm is no exception.

(Before you flame me, I know they were extremists who do not represent the religion as a whole.)

Exactly, and yet you still insist that you oppose the mosque being built because islam is a disgrace to those who died on 9/11? Maybe we should ban all prayers carried out by soldiers because christianity influenced their sending off to Iraq to their deaths? Maybe we should ban christian churches from having any weapons since they have real habit of going into clinics and buildings and shooting up the place? I mean that is your logic right there and all I see is this attempt from you to water it down by acting as if you 'understand' my point. If you really agreed that these extremists did not represent the religion as a whole, you would not automatically link the mosque and all those future muslim attendees as some insult to the world trade center.

So I'm sorry, but why would the people behind this mosque think this was a good idea?

Well Im sorry, that Mosque will be built there regardless of how you feel about it and it is something people like you will just have to live with.

You twisted my words. I find the placement of this mosque disrespectful, not the faith as a whole. I question the motives behind the decision to place it here by the people who decided it. How is that difficult for you to understand? Are you so hell bent on making everyone who opposes this mosque into some religious bigot that you are unwilling to accept that someone may just think it's not the best idea?

Just like the Bill of Rights grants us the freedom of religion, the Bill of Rights also grants us the freedom of speech. Therefore, the Islamic Center HAS A LEGAL RIGHT TO BE BUILT. Even for those of us who consider it an insensitive act of provocation, they are still protected according to our constitution.

Likewise, the Bill of Rights also grants us free speech and the right to protest. So it becomes a two-way street. Just like building of the center is legally protected, so is the protest against it.

So where is the hypocrisy? Seems like it also is coming from those who don't want to be opened to protest.

To use an analogy, if I want to build a church, I can build a church. You can have 500 protesters marching outside but I'm going to build my church. The protesters cannot stop me and I cannot stop the protesters. The bloggers against my church cannot stop me and I cannot stop the bloggers.

I cannot tell the blogers and protesters to respect MY freedom of religion while I disrespect their freedom of speech and protest.

So, I am morally opposed and personally outraged by the proposal to build the center near ground zero and believe it to be a provocation and victory flag of sorts. I don't buy the excuse being given for a single minute that it is to 'bridge of a gap between the West and Islam' or as some symbol of tolerance.

But that is simply my right to freedom of speech and opinion. And that will not interfere with their right to build it.

Therefore, constitutionalists are not being hypocrites. They're actually the ones standing up for both rights. Freedom of religion for the center and freedom of speech and protest for those opposed.

Remember, freedom works both ways. That is not hypocrisy. In fact, it is the opposite.

The right to protest is not the issue here at all.

The issue is that if you're going to protest, protest on the basis of actual facts and current realities, not based on a kluge of blown-up, hyped-up, and in some cases downright questionable or erroneous spin picked and chosen at will.

Just look at how this issue was first presented in the consciousness...

THE MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO OPENING ON 9/11/2011 HURTS 9/11 FAMILIES.

That right there is powerful stuff. Tell me many. many people didn't see that and rush to judgment.

I said this on another thread, but want to repeat it here...

The most ironic thing to me is how this "movement" against the "Ground Zero Mosque" is made up of people who are "against" it for 100 different reasons. For some it's sheer bigotry or maybe even racism. For others pure ignorance of the facts. Some simply think it's insensitive. In others we see fear or maybe anger or outrage. For some it's religious. Still others are opposed on sheer emotion. Some do it for political reasons. Some are doing it to sell books or make money on speaking fees. And they all have this nice convenient rallying point, maybe not even realizing what others who are on the same "side" are doing here.

For example, someone "against" the building of the center may be against it out of pure sadness for the 9/11 families, maybe not even realizing that not all the 9/11 families are opposed. Good-hearted, well-intentioned people, without even realizing what else is going on here, are in many cases finding themselves on the same side of the argument with those who truly hate or are doing this for other reasons.

That's one of the thing that really sucks about this.

Absolutely excellent post by the OP!
ALL religious ethnocentric bigots whether it be from Islam, Judaism, or Christianity, or any other like minded of any religion, justify crimes against others in the name of their God.

Its all bad and has been done BY ALL OF THEM!

If you go back in history you could find thousands of acts by Christians of murder on others who don’t believe as they believe therefore we can murder them.

The decision to build the mosque is up to the builder’s choice, not anyone else.
As long as it I legal


[edit on 15-8-2010 by inforeal]

Originally posted by AshleyD
Likewise, the Bill of Rights also grants us free speech and the right to protest. So it becomes a two-way street. Just like building of the center is legally protected, so is the protest against it.

I agree completely. That's why I asked people what they think should be done.

So where is the hypocrisy? Seems like it also is coming from those who don't want to be opened to protest.

The hypocrisy is in not supporting the freedoms of those with whom we disagree. That's why I asked about it. Do the people who are against this mosque support the right of people to build it? Or do they think something should be done to force a denial of the mosque?