Over 1 Billion Muslims and Growing

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
And he who denys the SON denys the FATHER!!!

Where is the SALVATION in Islam?? It is a faith based on WORKS..but none is righteous and all the righteousness of man is as a rag to the Lord.

What son, there is no son. God is without an equal and without partners, read the first commandment in the Bible and the Qur'an.

There is no need for salvation if there is no sin. Christianity preaches that everyone is born with sin, Islam says that babies are pure and sinless (which seems more plausible?). As a life is led, sin may enter and is only forgivable by God not some man-priest. Doing good works counts in your favour. This seems a far nicer concept to me!

It's a religion primarily based on belief not works. All that is needed is to believe in no god other than God and you're pretty much there; it's written in the Qur'an. Anything else is forgivable only by God.

So there is no salvation in Islam!! Then compare Islamic prophecies to Biblical prophecies...which came true...which has the 100% accuracy??

Is this a joke?

finally take a look at Jesus's life and then Mohameeds, and how their message was spread. Did Jesus kill anyone?? Did Mohammed?? Which faith is based on war and which on love?? If you read the Koran and the Gospels you will find that although many many evils have come from "churchs" claiming to be Christian, that does not change the message of Jesus Christ, love and forsake yourself to find true life and follow the Father in heaven. What is the message of Koran?? Where is its salvation?? Is it not the message of do good works and you will be saved??

How does using violence in defence against aggressors prove that person is a false prophet? I suppose then you think Moses was false since he was very violent! Jesus was a prophet that brought a Message. That he was totally peaceful probably explains why the real Gospel only lasted a hundred years before getting wiped out. Muhammad brought a Message but defended it from those who wanted to destroy it. Neither is based on war or love, they were both the same Message. The Qur'anic message is that you surrender yourself to God alone, not Muhammad, not Jesus, not some stone idol; it's the same message ignored by people throughout time and even the Bible explains what God ultimately did to those again and again.

If you truly do surrender your free-will (to some extent) to God you will willingly lead a life following Islam, it's a hard thing to follow but God made it that way as a test. He wants us to individually prove we love Him by giving (our free-will) back to Him what He gave to us. If we love Him, then He decides whether He loves us. This is different to Christianity where you just need to break the first commandment to get into Heaven regardless of how evil you were in life. Which seems fairer?

I challenge any muslim to explain to me the SALVATION that is Islam? Where is the atonement for sin? How does the false god Allah save a man born in to sin?? Is man inherently evil or good? Was man even born with sin in the eyes of Allah???

I explained this above but just to repeat man is born sinless, neither good nor evil. The good he does in life does not negate the sins he does, but it may help toward forgiveness for his wrong-doings if he truly regretted them. Jesus was a man who led a completely sinless life, not even a minor sin was committed.

So, let me ask you. Suppose you had two children that you loved and one of them was doing bad things to the other whereas the other was doing good; if you had to punish one of them to bring order who would you punish?



[edit on 24-6-2004 by mithras]

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction


I challenge any muslim to explain to me the SALVATION that is Islam? Where is the atonement for sin? How does the false god Allah save a man born in to sin?? Is man inherently evil or good? Was man even born with sin in the eyes of Allah???

As you wish.
In Muslim belief original sin was Adam and Eve listening to what devil has to say, and not God, and eating from the Tree of LIfe. Their bodies then became visible and as a punishment God sent them down to earth to live in those bodies for a certain period of time.
Men are born as good. A child is innocent. In the course of this life one should focus on doing good deeds and living a righteous life, that is a way to heaven. If you stray from that path you go to hell. Basicaly, every man and woman are responsible for only their own actions and sins, not for the sins of others.

This life is seen as temporary and not that important. What is far more important is the eternal afterlife. Material possesions are just temporary and one of the five pillars of Islam is charity, giving away a part of your fortune to those who dont have any.
You save your soul by being a good person, that is the salvation.

Now to Jesus.
Jesus is not just any Prophet in Islam, he IS the Messiah. Only Muslims do not use the term Son of God simply because of our concept of God. God is an all-present all-powerful entity and as such he cannot have a son, humans have sons. What God has are CREATIONS. Jesus was created by God, to quote the Qur'an "God says BE IT, and it is, God is all powerful". Muslims also believe that Mary was a virgin, that Jesus preformed miracles, healed the sick and all that. The difference is, Muslims do not believe that he was crucified, a pasage in the Qur'an says that God raised him, his spirit, before the crucifixion, and that only an "empty shell" was killed. At least thats how I understand that part of the story.
Muslims believe that he will come back in the endtimes, before judgement day, to fight the final battle.
It might be interesting to mention here, not many Christians know this, that Muslims believe in another miracle birth, the one of John the Baptist, in Islam he is considered to be a prophet of God. Though it is not the same miracle birth as Jesus, more of a small miracle I'd say.

Holy Spirit is also a part of Muslim belief, btw, but not a part of Trinity.

Relevant verses from the Qur'an:

Birth of John

[3:38] That is when Zachariah implored his Lord: "My Lord, grant me such a good child; You are the Hearer of the prayers."

[3:39] The angels called him when he was praying in the sanctuary: "GOD gives you good news of John; a believer in the word of GOD, honorable, moral, and a righteous prophet."

[3:40] He said, "How can I have a boy, when I am so old, and my wife is sterile?" He said, "GOD does whatever He wills."

[3:41] He said, "My Lord, give me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three days, except through signals. Commemorate your Lord frequently; and meditate night and day."

Birth of Jesus

[3:42] The angels said, "O Mary, GOD has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you from all the women.

[3:43] "O Mary, you shall submit to your Lord, and prostrate and bow down with those who bow down."

[3:44] This is news from the past that we reveal to you. You were not there when they drew their raffles to select Mary's guardian. You were not present when they argued with one another.

[3:45] The angels said, "O Mary, GOD gives you good news: a Word from Him whose name is `The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He will be prominent in this life and in the Hereafter, and one of those closest to Me.'

Death of Jesus

[3:54] They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer.

[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

[3:56] "As for those who disbelieve, I will commit them to painful retribution in this world, and in the Hereafter. They will have no helpers."

[3:57] As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, He will fully recompense them. GOD does not love the unjust.

[3:58] These are the revelations that we recite to you, providing a message full of wisdom

......

[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.

[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

oh, I forgot to add my favourite verse:

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

There you go.

Jesus does not talk of Mohameed as the comforter. UNLESS MOHAMMED IS A SPIRIT ??? It is the SPIRIT (NOT MAN) OF TRUTH that is the comforter. If it was a man Jesus would NOT have said SPIRIT.Pentecost proved this more than ISLAM, considering the miracles the apostles worked NOT BY POWER OR BY MIGHT but by Gods SPIRIT. Islam?? What did they do?? Did they preach GOOD NEWS ?? Did they send SALVATION?? NO. Convert or DIE. Islam was spread through WAR. Now where is the comfort in WAR?? Where does Mohammed COMFORT people????

Everything I have said is backed up by the Gospel and the apostles, because they knew the truth. If you believe in jesus then you must believe he died for your sins. Islam denies this. They deny the son and the father. Jesus himself said that. No second or third person but the Messiah said if you deny me then you deny the father. In saying that Jesus DID NOT die for our sins you are DENYING HIM.Period. And because I believe in the Gospel I will say that ISLAM IS A FALSE RELIGION AND HAS NO SALVATION FOR MAN. It even says in the NT that who is the spirit of ANTICHRIST but that which denies Jesus is the SON OF GOD. Islam does this perfectly, it denies Jesus as Lord and Messiah and denies even the NEED for Messiah.

Why not do what I said and COMPARE Koran and Bible..see which prophecies were fullfilled. Isaiah lists prophecies that Jesus fullfilled and there are many more that have been fullfilled. Tell me a Muslim prophecy that has been fullfilled?

I dont have to "tolerate" Islam or Muslims. I wont harm them and if they ask I will tell them the truth of the only God, but I will still believe that theri faith is a FALSE faith, it is NOT OF THE LORD.

Even God himself says in Isaiah that he himself is the only salvation and that HE KNOWS NO OTHER!! There is NO other God like him.

I highly doubt that there are 3000 muslims in Aruba. There are no mosques here, and I would surely notice if there were more muslims here. I think it's more around 300. And as for the population; it's about 100000, not 67000.

Quote:

At least thats how I understand that part of the story.

Ok first off I do not believe in Islam, as is clearly evident in my posts, but I mean no hatred towards Muslims (although many will read my previous posts and think I do).

The above quote is VITAL!!! It is the MOST VITAL QUOTE i will EVER make!
That is the most important part of the story!!! Jesus did not come as a prophet to preach only and leave. He came as the only means of salvation.
What is really wrong with the world today?? Why is the world as it is?? If every man and women are born innocent..then why all the evil?? The evil one is not omnipeont like God..he is NOT everwhere at the same time , neither can he tempt many at once. But Satans only and greatest victory was to corrupt ALL of man at once in Eden. So that every man born after would have corruption and sin. the bible says..by one man sin entered the world (Adam) and so by one man sin is defeated (by Jesus Christ)

You cannot earn salvation. What are the good works of men to God?? tell me please, what do they mean for the Lord?? If the things esteemed by men are an Abomination to God..even the good things...then what righteousness of man will earn him salvation?? The simple truth is that God himself saves each of those who enter heaven, he does it himself..he starts a work and finishes it, NO MAN enters into heaven by HIS OWN POWER!!

The Judgement of mans good works against his sin ..that is the SECOND DEATH judgement, the JUDGEMENT DAY of the Lord....that is the very final judgement when God views the works of everyman and repays him for it. If this is the judgement Islam waits for (I base this on Revelations where it speaks of the second death and Judgement Day) then they miss on the opportunity of salvation from death and judgment of the first death. This is the only place in the bible where I can think of Islams view of the Lord, works repaid and salvation based on works.

If you look at the Hebrew teachings of sacrifice it was all a model based on the one true sacrifice, that which was to come and came and was fullfilled by Jesus , the LAMB of God. Jesus is that Lamb , he was slain at the foundation of the world..at the very beginning to cover and take the ultimate punishment of sin.

I do NOT know the ways of the Lord. No one knows his ways. And neither am I worthy to judge anothers right to the house of God. I only base what I believe and what I have posted on the Gospel, which is the ultimate plan for the salvation of mankind. When Jesus said "I am the way the TRUTH AND THE LIFE..no MAN COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME" what is he saying? His saying this is it..I AM. But if you take away from WHO jesus is and WHAT he did for us..then can you claim to the father that you come to him via his Son..if you dont believe he was his son and you dont believe he died for you???

There are many parts of the question of Islam. Ishmeal in the desert and the angel that visted him??? Was this the same angel that visted Mohammed?? Yet Paul in the NT says that even if an ANGEL brings you another gospel BELIEVE IT NOT!!

Salvation is really simple. Repent, receive the Lord..invite him into your heart and he will change you and begin a work in you that he will finish. there is nothing you can do to win the approval of God.; Just take those who God choose (other than Jesus...who is one with God..God is in him and he is in God) they were not perfect ..but God chose them. Why did he chose certain people yet not chose others who may have been better people?? Once again who knows the way of the Lord??He sits in heaven and does as he chooses. After all he IS GOD and him alone.

"for the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man and the weakness of God is stronger than the strength of man"

You've not bothered to answer one question I put to you because you can't; oh well. Anyway, here are my answers to your "questions":

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Jesus does not talk of Mohameed as the comforter. UNLESS MOHAMMED IS A SPIRIT ??? It is the SPIRIT (NOT MAN) OF TRUTH that is the comforter. If it was a man Jesus would NOT have said SPIRIT.Pentecost proved this more than ISLAM, considering the miracles the apostles worked NOT BY POWER OR BY MIGHT but by Gods SPIRIT. Islam?? What did they do?? Did they preach GOOD NEWS ?? Did they send SALVATION?? NO. Convert or DIE. Islam was spread through WAR. Now where is the comfort in WAR?? Where does Mohammed COMFORT people????

Your problem is you believe the Bible you read today is uncorrupt. If it was uncorrupt why are there so many versions of it, where is the original language version because it's a fact that translations automatically change meaning. If a part of it can be wrong then don't think other parts are definitely right you need to consider what else it could mean.

Comforter, Spirit of Truth or however else the Bible's words have been changed over time: There is evidence in the Bible that Jesus said to expect another Prophet to appear, now we can't take this as true because we know the Bible is corrupted. However this interpretation fits in with Islam's Muhammad being that Prophet. Remember that the word prophet does not mean miracle-worker as such.

Everything I have said is backed up by the Gospel and the apostles, because they knew the truth. If you believe in jesus then you must believe he died for your sins. Islam denies this. They deny the son and the father. Jesus himself said that. No second or third person but the Messiah said if you deny me then you deny the father. In saying that Jesus DID NOT die for our sins you are DENYING HIM.Period. And because I believe in the Gospel I will say that ISLAM IS A FALSE RELIGION AND HAS NO SALVATION FOR MAN. It even says in the NT that who is the spirit of ANTICHRIST but that which denies Jesus is the SON OF GOD. Islam does this perfectly, it denies Jesus as Lord and Messiah and denies even the NEED for Messiah.

You keep saying that like a stuck record ignoring my reply to it. Here goes again: Islam doesn't preach original sin and I'm not sure what "denying him" means because it seems about as vague as the Trinity, but Muslims do believe in Jesus as a man.

Why not do what I said and COMPARE Koran and Bible..see which prophecies were fullfilled. Isaiah lists prophecies that Jesus fullfilled and there are many more that have been fullfilled. Tell me a Muslim prophecy that has been fullfilled?

Maybe you could explain these Biblical prophecies to me and why people aren't flocking to Christianity because of them. There's a major prophecy in Islam, that's the return of Jesus which is still pending. Muhammad mentioned others in the "Islamic Bible" (not the Qur'an) which, just like the modern Christian Bible, may or may not be accurate since it's reported by other men. So talking about them is pointless because anyone can twist the millions of events in history to fit the hundreds of vague prophecies. It doesn't prove a thing. Those minor Islamic prophecies could also be seen as coming true.

How can I answer your questions when you dont believe man is even born with sin????? No sin no need for saviour, that is what you believe.
State of Israel is a reality!! That alone fullfills prophecy.

Some of the Koran :

Sura 9:5 says,

Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war.

Sura 5:33 records what is done to infidels who resist Islam:

Their punishment is...execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land.

Hmmmmm not quite the same there And where is the truth in such violence?? Where is the COMFORT if Mohammed is the Spirit of Truth??

Why do you denounce the bible as being corrupted and changed and claim the Koran is the original to this day?? If they bible can be corrupted then so can the Koran? But why corrupt a perfect deception?

Where is the SIN THAT JESUS COMMITED?? He sinned NOT. He is PERFECT never has and never will sin. But mohammed??? :

The Hadith makes clear that Muhammad was a sinner--NOT sinless as some Muslims now claim:

"Muhammad replied..."O Allah, set me apart from my sins..."

What sins Mo?? Killing people?? Stealing your own sons wife?? Stealing the wealth of those you have slain?? Spreading terror and killing millions of the saints of Jesus even up to this day where your evil doctrine causes the death of innocent Christians?? Explain that to me please. Why is it that in a democractic nation Muslims are allowed to practise their faith but in Muslim countries (Saudi Arabi is a good example) if anyone even preaches the Gospel of believes in Jesus as Lord they are put to death??? Why is that if Islam is a "peace loving faith"





Here are some comparisons:

Mohammed was the prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Mohammed's disciples killed for the faith; Christ's disciples were killed for their faith (Acts 12:2; 2 Timothy 4:7).

Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels"; Christ forgave delivered and converted the chief persecutor (1 Timothy 1:13-15).

Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ was the giver of life (John 10:27-28).

Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands; Christ murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48).

Mohammed's method was COMPULSION; Christ's aim was voluntary CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).

Mohammed practiced FORCE; Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29, 35).

Mohammed was a WARRIOR; Christ is The DELIVERER (Rom 11:26, Col. 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Mohammed conquered his enemies with the sword; Christ conquered his enemies with another kind of sword, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God (Hebrews 4:12; Acts 2:37).

Mohammed said to the masses, "Convert or die!"; Christ said, "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Mohammed was swift to shed blood (Romans 3:15-17); Christ shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Ephesians 1:7).

Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels!"; Christ prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels; Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Colossians 2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).

Mohammed constrained people by conquest; Christ constrained people by love (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Modern terrorists derive their inspiration from Mohammed and carry out their despicable atrocities in the name of his god; Christians derive their inspiration from the One who said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:9).

Modern day disciples of Mohammed respond to the terrorist attacks by cheering in the streets; Modern day disciples of Christ are deeply grieved at past atrocities carried out by those who were "Christians" in name only (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.).

Many Muslims are peaceful and peace-loving because they do not strictly follow the teachings of their founder; Many Christians are peaceful and peace-loving because they do strictly follow the teachings of their Founder (Romans 12:17-21).

Mohammed said the Koran is authoritative only in Arabic, and only in his dialect; The Bible is authoritative in many languages around the world, for God knows all things and can inspire (and preserve) His Word in more than one language.

Mohammed hated music; Jesus and His disciples sang hymns, and the Apostle commanded the Lord's Church to sing. (Matthew 26:30, Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

Mohammed allowed that a Mullah, Imam, or Mufti of Islam can be a terrorist and an amoral animal like Osama bin Laden; The Bible requires that a leader in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ must be above reproach, and when this is not true, Christians demand such a fallen leader be removed from leadership. (1 Timothy 3:1-7, 5:19-20).

Islam calls on its followers to observe Five Pillars, while all other aspects of life can be vulgar and not affect the Muslim's prospects in Paradise. The Bible calls on the Christian to submit to the total change of his life by the Spirit of God -- NO area of life and/or thought is left to the choice of the follower. (Romans 12:1-2).

The Muslim looks forward to eternity in Paradise where there will be virgins who are used for eternal perpetual copulation.

The Bible believing Christian looks forward to being with Jesus Christ in total sinless, holiness, and is delighted with that. (2 Corinthians 5:8).

Mohammed said the witness of a woman was half the value of the witness of a man; and Muhammed said a woman goes to Paradise because she satisfies her husband sexually; The Bible teaches that a husband is to love his wife and be willing to die for her. (Ephesians 5:25).

Mohammed called upon his servants to fight; Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . . but now is My kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36).

Mohammed ordered death to the Jews (see A. Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, Oxford University Press [1975], p. 369); Christ ordered that the gospel be preached "to the Jew first" (Romans 1:16).

The Koran says, "Fight in the cause of Allah" (Qu'ran 2.244); The Bible says, "we wrestle not against flesh and blood" and "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal" (Ephesians 6:12; 2 Corinthians 10:4).

The Koran says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5); Christ said, "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).

The Koran says, "I will inspire terror into the hearts of unbelievers" (Qu'ran 8.12); God inspires His terror into the hearts of believers (Isaiah 8:13).

The Koran (Qu'ran) is a terrorist manual which condones fighting, conflict, terror, slaughter, and genocide against those who do not accept Islam; The Bible is a missionary manual to spread the gospel of peace to all the world (Romans 10:15).

Mohammed's Mission was to conquer the world for Allah; Christ's mission was to conquer sin's power and penalty by substitutionary atonement (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18).

Mohammed considered Christ a good prophet; Christ pronounced Mohammed to be a false prophet (John 10:10; Matthew 24:11).

Mohammed claimed that there was but one God, Allah; Christ claimed that He was God (John 10:30-31; John 8:58-59; John 5:18; John 14:9).

Islam is geocentric, that is, the whole universe is centered on the Kaaba in the Grand Mosque in Mecca in Arabia, and all Muslims pray facing that direction; Jesus Christ is the center of all Christian worship and fellowship, for He is "in the midst" where his saints meet anywhere on earth. (Matthew 18:20, John 4:22-23).

Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED! Christ's tomb: EMPTY!


[edit on 24-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction



Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED! Christ's tomb: EMPTY!


[edit on 24-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

I really don't see why this point is worth reiterating. First of all Muslims already agree with this statement, because Jesus Christ (pbuh) escaped the Crucifiction and Ascended to Heaven. Thus, obviously Christ's tomb is empty....what did you expect us to say?


And Jesus Christ is not unique in the sense of being the only prophet to Ascend to Heaven. A special group of elect prophets including Enoch, Khidr and Elijah all ascended to Heaven.


---River

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction

Mohammed allowed that a Mullah, Imam, or Mufti of Islam can be a terrorist and an amoral animal like Osama bin Laden; The Bible requires that a leader in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ must be above reproach, and when this is not true, Christians demand such a fallen leader be removed from leadership. (1 Timothy 3:1-7, 5:19-20).


[edit on 24-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

If all your statements are as lame as this ....we might as well just ignore you. Why do you get such a kick out of making fun of Islam? Is G-d inspiring you to cleanse the world of "satantists" such as Muslims, Jews , Hindus and Buddhists? Or is it jelousy that inspires you.....Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world with 1.6 Billion adherents....The U.N believes that by the year 2050...Muslims will constitute 45% of the World population......


---River

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
What is really wrong with the world today?? Why is the world as it is?? If every man and women are born innocent..then why all the evil?? The evil one is not omnipeont like God..he is NOT everwhere at the same time , neither can he tempt many at once. But Satans only and greatest victory was to corrupt ALL of man at once in Eden.

I don't see how thinking Jesus is the Son of God makes you lose all your "inherent" evil, even some Christian priests do evil in the world, yes? Injustice in the world is partly down to man's own ignorance about what is right and wrong (and his free-will to do so) and also due to temptation. As a Muslim there is still temptation but following Islam shields you from it. Simply accepting Jesus is God won't enable you to define right and wrong, maybe it just makes you think you're specially loved when really you're just another ignorant human that can do wrong.

So that every man born after would have corruption and sin. the bible says..by one man sin entered the world (Adam) and so by one man sin is defeated (by Jesus Christ)

So why is sin still around? I mean you apparently believe Jesus defeated it by dying. Also what happens to those poor souls from before Jesus' time, they all go to Hell? When you "accept" Jesus what happens to you, does God slowly cleanse you of sin for the remainder of your life?

You cannot earn salvation. What are the good works of men to God?? tell me please, what do they mean for the Lord??

The Judgement of mans good works against his sin

..that is the very final judgement when God views the works of everyman and repays him for it.

So now you think Christianity is works-based too, weren't you accusing Islam of that? You saying that "accepting" Christ cleanses you of your previous sins but still you can sin more and that these newer sins are cleansed on a works-basis at Judgement?

I do NOT know the ways of the Lord. No one knows his ways. And neither am I worthy to judge anothers right to the house of God. I only base what I believe and what I have posted on the Gospel, which is the ultimate plan for the salvation of mankind. When Jesus said "I am the way the TRUTH AND THE LIFE..no MAN COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME" what is he saying? His saying this is it..I AM. But if you take away from WHO jesus is and WHAT he did for us..then can you claim to the father that you come to him via his Son..if you dont believe he was his son and you dont believe he died for you???

But you claim to be worthy to judge since you absolutely believe a dead Muslim will definitely go to Hell whereas every Christian goes to Heaven, right?

Yes, through Jesus as in through his teachings which was Islam (submission to God) until various people corrupted the message to make Christianity. It's pretty clear he is saying that himself and God are different.

There are many parts of the question of Islam. Ishmeal in the desert and the angel that visted him??? Was this the same angel that visted Mohammed?? Yet Paul in the NT says that even if an ANGEL brings you another gospel BELIEVE IT NOT!!

Gabriel visited Muhammad. Paul added (corruption) his own ideas to the Bible even though he never met Jesus, most of modern Christianity is based on Paul's teachings. If you believe one statement totally you might as well believe everything in the Bible as fact.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Muslims do not believe in Jesus Christ at all.

They deny his crucifiction and resurection, and they deny he is the Son of God. Muslim claim God has NO SON.

The son of God


The term "son(s) of God" was not a term that the Christian Bible uses exclusively to Jesus Christ. Having had this pointed out to them numerous times as a fatal flaw in Christian dogma, church theologians have investigated the matter and realized the truth that not only is this correct, but "son of God" never implied a literal "Father-son" relationship in the culture and language of the Children of Israel. "Son of God" merely implied that one was a King or was Kingly. We see that even the "Nefilim" ( ��������� ) are called the "sons of God" in the Book of Genesis. We Muslims understand that the Nefilim are in fact a species of beings called "Jinn," which many ancient cultures worshipped in their primitive religions.

�And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the Face of the Earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose. The Nefilim were in the Earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.� Genesis 6:1-2, 4

������� ���� ����� �������, ����� ��� ������ ���������; ��������, �������� �����. ���������� ����� ���������� ��� ������� �������, ���� ����� ������; ���������� ����� �������, ������ ������ �������� ����������� ����� �������, ���������� �����, ����� ������� ��� ������ ������� ������ ���������� ��� ������� �������, ��������� �����: ������ ������������ ������ � ;�������, �������� �������

In trying to explain this, the New Catholic Encyclopedia says: "The title 'son of God' is frequent in the Old Testament. The word �son� was employed among the Semites to signify not only filiation, but other close connexion or intimate relationship. The title �son of God� was applied in the Old Testament to persons having any special relationship with God. Angels, just and pious men..."

Beyond that, the New Testament says that Adam himself was the "son of God:"

"the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." Luke 3:38

tou enwV tou shq tou adam tou qeou.

So then there is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus is "The son" of God, but rather that he has a "close relationship" with God.

"Now there was a day when the sons of Elohim came to present themselves before YHWH, and Satan also came among them." Iyov (Job) 1:6

������� �������--���������� ������ ����������, ������������ ��� ������; ��������� ��� ���������, ���������

"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of Elohim shouted for joy?" Iyov (Job) 38:7

������-�����, ��������� �����; �����������, ����-������ ��������

"Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what YHWH says: Yisrael is my firstborn son." Sh'mot (Exodus) 4:22

�����������, ���-��������: ���� ����� ������, ������ ������� ����������.

"You are the children of YHWH Eloheikem (The LORD your God). You shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead." D'varim (Deuteronomy) 14:1

������� ������, ������� ����������: ��� ������������, �����-��������� ������� ����� ���������--�����.

Of Efraim it is written: "They will come with weeping; they will pray as I ring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Yisrael's father, and Efraim is my firstborn son." Yirmiyahu (Jeremiah) 31:8

�������� �������, ��������������� ���������--��������� ��� ������� ����� ��������� ������ ��� ����������� �����: ���� �������� ������������ �����, ����������� �������� ����

Clearly the notion of God as the "Father" of whoever is being referenced is a traditional Jewish one. Jews have NEVER taken this literally. Christians however, did take this literally because they were not from and did not understand Jesus' culture, nor his cultural terminology.

"I said, 'You are 'elohim'; you are all sons of the Most High." Tehillim (Psalm) 82:6

�����-����������, �������� ������; ������� �������� ���������

ALL of humanity are said to be elohim, the same term the Torah uses for the Archangels and the polytheistic false "gods" of Egypt as well. This of course is not a statement that all are YHWH, as it is written: "YHWH is greater than the Elohim" (Exodus 18:11).

Of Prophet David it is written: "He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the Sons of Man (Adam).� Sh'mu'el Bet (2 Samuel) 7:13-14

���� ������� ������, ��������; ������������ ��� ������� ������������, ��� ������. ����� ������� ���� ����� ������� ������� ���� ����� ������ ����������� ���������������������� ��������� ����������� ������ �����

"Yet the number of the children of Yisrael will be as the sand of the sea, which can't be measured nor numbered; and it will come to pass that, in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of El Chai (the Living God)'." Hoshea (Hosea) 1:10/2:1

������� �������� ������ ����������, ������� ������, ������ ��� ������, ����� ��������; ������� ��������� ������ ������� �����, ��� ������ ������, ������� �����, ������ ��� ���

"When Yisrael was a child, then I loved him, and out of Mitzrayim (Egypt) I called My son [Yisrael]." Hoshea (Hosea) 11:1

���� ����� ����������, �����������; ��������������, �������� �������

This clear reference to the Exodus of the 12 Tribes is later paralleled in the Gospels. However, in reference to Jesus it no more means that he was "the son of God" than when it was first said of Israel.

And most importantly, the man that the billions all over the world claim is the "son of God" said: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." Matthew 5:9

makarioi oi eirhnopoioi, oti autoi uioi qeou klhqhsontai.

Not only will they "be called" Sons of God, but according to the following verse they will actually BE the "sons of God" ...at least just as much so as Jesus who was referred to by the same terminology in the same books.

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:44-5

egw de legw umin, agapate touV ecqrouV umwn kai proseucesqe uper twn diwkontwn umaV, opwV genhsqe uioi tou patroV umwn tou en ouranoiV, oti ton hlion autou anatellei epi ponhrouV kai agaqouV kai brecei epi dikaiouV kai adikouV.

"But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:35

plhn agapate touV ecqrouV umwn kai agaqopoieite kai danizete mhden apelpizonteV: kai estai o misqoV umwn poluV, kai esesqe uioi uyistou, oti autoV crhstoV estin epi touV acaristouV kai ponhrouV.

If you do not understand the context of the words of Jesus Christ then you will not understand his words at all. If you do not understand his cultural and linguistic background, then you know nothing about the real man. Instead you will have only the misinterpretations of a pagan Roman people who framed such terminology as "son of God" within their own polytheistic cultural misunderstanding. Understand that these are but a few of the references in the Bible to people other than Jesus Christ being allegorically called "sons of God." [Abu' Jamal]

NO SUCH THING AS TRINITY


Interestingly there is no Hebrew term for "Trinity." One might wonder, if this was such a cornerstone dogma of the pre-Christian followers of Jesus Christ, the Prophets and Children of Israel, then why is there not, nor has there ever been a Hebrew term to convey such a concept?

The reason is because this is not a Semitic concept, it is a Hellenistic one. Theophilus of Antioch (180 C.E.) was the first to use the word �trinity� in Greek ecclesiastical writings. This is not a teaching of Jesus Christ nor of his disciples. Rather it is a later innovation of non-Semites who were not commissioned by God to teach on His behalf.

Not finding any rational for such a foreign concept to the faith practiced in the Torah, Muslims do not subscribe to this notion of Trinity. The under quoted verses from the New Testament categorically and in very explicit terms, negate the concept of Jesus and God being "co-equal" or "partners" in a "God-head." [Abu' Jamal]



"...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I." John.14:28

"Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My Soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36







----River



[edit on 24-6-2004 by River Euphrates]

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
How can I answer your questions when you dont believe man is even born with sin????? No sin no need for saviour, that is what you believe.
State of Israel is a reality!! That alone fullfills prophecy.

The questions had nothing to do with the idea of original sin. Here's just one question that you skipped:-
"Suppose you had two children that you loved and one of them was doing bad things to the other whereas the other was doing good; if you had to punish one of them to bring order who would you punish?"

Some of the Koran :

Ah that's right resort to your friend, copy and paste, when you can't answer for yourself. I don't want to fill the thread with spam but all of these (mistranslated) quotes are out of context, there are many explanations in other threads here and elsewhere that explain them but I doubt you'll bother to look.

Though I could I'm not going to copy and paste the many verses in the Bible that could be taken out of context in exactly the same way.

Hmmmmm not quite the same there

And where is the truth in such violence?? Where is the COMFORT if Mohammed is the Spirit of Truth??

What has this to do with truth, the descriptive words are just corrupted but the hint is there. Are you saying that because God will punish some souls (violence) that He too is a lie?

Why do you denounce the bible as being corrupted and changed and claim the Koran is the original to this day?? If they bible can be corrupted then so can the Koran? But why corrupt a perfect deception?

The Qur'an is in its original language the Bible is not, that's already a big difference. There is only one version of the Qur'an in the whole world, people translate it but that is not called the Qur'an. You can definitely say the Bible is corrupt (Christians argue about which Bible is the truth). You can't so easily say the same of the Qur'an, even as a non-Muslim unless of course you love pulling facts out of air.

Where is the SIN THAT JESUS COMMITED?? He sinned NOT. He is PERFECT never has and never will sin. But mohammed??? :

Islam holds Jesus as sinless, other Prophets may have had very minor sins but Jesus was completely sinless. How this is proof that Muhammad (and according to you, Moses, of course he killed!) was not a Messenger is beyond me.

What sins Mo?? Killing people?? Stealing your own sons wife?? Stealing the wealth of those you have slain?? Spreading terror and killing millions of the saints of Jesus even up to this day where your evil doctrine causes the death of innocent Christians?? Explain that to me please. Why is it that in a democractic nation Muslims are allowed to practise their faith but in Muslim countries (Saudi Arabi is a good example) if anyone even preaches the Gospel of believes in Jesus as Lord they are put to death??? Why is that if Islam is a "peace loving faith"

Is pulling "facts" out of thin air what you resort to? Any country that prevents the freedom of non-Muslims to practice their faith is not truly Islamic. What is the Christian doctrine with respect to war? That would be interesting to hear, when is war allowable and where is it written?

Originally posted by TheBandit795
I highly doubt that there are 3000 muslims in Aruba. There are no mosques here, and I would surely notice if there were more muslims here. I think it's more around 300. And as for the population; it's about 100000, not 67000.

The CIA world factbook estimates that there are about 71000 people there. It also estimates that 10% (7100) are split between Hindu Muslim Jews and Confucians. So it's a possible figure according to the factbook. I guess it depends on how much you trust his statistic; maybe I would agree and think that figure is a bit high though. Muslims come in all races and don't actually need a mosque to practice and pretty much any building would do if needed, so not noticing them doesn't mean they aren't there. There is even a little site about Aruba (if it's the same Aruba) here:

www.geocities.com...

Originally posted by Alchy

Yes, they are the same, but one is human and our brother, the other is God and our father.

Yes, Jesus is 100% human, the thing is at the same time He is 100% God. As far as us being "God" someday, that was satan's lie to Eve in the garden. This lie is the same one that satan spreads today. We are to grow in the "likeness" of God. Not that we will be "God" someday, but that we will have attibutes like Him. There has always been just one true God and that's all there will ever be. satan, fallen angels, demons and even people try to elevate themselves to the position of "God", but these are futile attempts.

As far as the religion of islam, I hope readers understand that there is no common ground with Christianity. Sorry to be so blunt, but islam is a lie. Jesus died for sin and rose again and this salvation is available to anyone who accepts it. This isn't my truth it's God's truth, accept it or reject. Does this mean we kill others who don't believe as us, no, we live a life honoring Christ and pray that others will hear God as He seeks a the lost. This even means we witness to a lost world. islam isn't the only road to hell that the people of the world are on.

Originally posted by mithras

So why is sin still around? I mean you apparently believe Jesus defeated it by dying. Also what happens to those poor souls from before Jesus' time, they all go to Hell? When you "accept" Jesus what happens to you, does God slowly cleanse you of sin for the remainder of your life?






What a real christian(when I say real I mean a christian who is truly born again)believes is that people are made of a body, soul and spirit. Our body is obvious. Our soul is our mind, will, emotions and intellect. Our spirit is our ability to communicate and have a relationship with God. When Adam and Eve sinnned their spirit died, literally. Everyone after them has been born with a dead spirit,literally. We have no desire for the true God. We care about ourselves and putting us first. We are bent toward sin and bent away from God. We are seperated from God by our sins. Jesus Christ came and took upon Himself all the sin of every person who has ever or will ever live. God poured out His wrath for that sin on Christ. You mean God has wrath. Yes. He is a God of love, but He also is a God of justice. Sin had to be atoned for. Christ is God's way of salvation. Christ paid the death penalty of eternal seperation from God for mankinds sin. When a person hears and feels the call of God, convicting them of sin, and they accept Jesus Christ as the only way of forgiveness, at that moment they are "born again". The Holy Spirit enters the body of a believer(literally) and makes our dead spirit alive again. Then we want to know God. Our desires change. Does this happen all at once, no. Do real christians sin, yes, but if we are growing in our relationship with God it is less in frequency and intensity. so the answer to one of your questions is yes, God slowly cleanses us of sin. Will we ever be sinless on earth, no. We long for the day of Christ's return, read 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. When Jesus returns we will be given a body that cannot sin. The lie about the Bible being corrupted and false is just that, a lie. My God is strong enough to keep His word correct through the centuries so that we can have it today.

What about those who lived before Christ. Those who in faith followed the foreshadowing of Christ by the animal sacrifice system set up on God's terms are just as saved as I am.

Any other way of salvation is a lie!

Originally posted by mithras

Originally posted by dlbrandt

Originally posted by dlbrandt
Please remember a true christian values all life.

What does this mean, especially in terms of a Christian's attitude to violence? Doesn't everyone "value life"?

Originally posted by dlbrandt
John 10:30 I and my Father are one

This can also be taken to mean they are one in terms of goal or belief only.

The description son of God was given in the OT to various people.

One might think that if the idea of the Trinity was so important then it would even be mentioned in the Bible.

When I say I value life I mean this. When I see another person I know God made them, and God desires that that person knows Him through Christ. Because everyone is going to spend eternity somewhere forever. Either with God or apart from Him, which will be hell forever in the Lake of Fire. Hell is seperation from God for all eternity. It will never ever ever ever ever ever end. Christians are to witness to as many as possible so that they may hear the good news of salvation through Jesus and make their own choice either to accept or reject Him. If you truly accept Christ you are headed for a future with the God of the Bible, that by the way will never ever ever ever ever ever end. If you reject Christ, YOU, have chosen hell. God made the way to escape so don't blame Him.


Another question. Yes it does mean that Jesus and God the Father are the exact same in their goals and beliefs. But, the Bible is full of verses that have dual applications so it also means that they both are God at the same time. In John 3:30 John the baptist says that Jesus must increase and he(John the Baptist) must decrease, meaning Jesus' ministry must overtake John's. This has a dual application for me today where I am. Jesus and His ways in my life must increase as I surrender to His will for my life and my selfish sinful actions must decrease.

3rd question The word trinity is not in the Bible, but the theme of the trinity is throughout the Bible.

I'm giving you the answers to your questions. I cannot make you believe them, but here's the thing now you have heard the truth and you are without excuse. You can no longer say to God " I didn't know". You have heard the Good News of Jesus Christ in my posts.

Muslims really belive in every things jesus said and his way to be good. For them, he is just a prophet (but a true prophet) and speak in the name of god and with the pure peace of the holly spirit.

Christians think they have to live with any body, now that the stupid inquisition is really finish : Problem of interpretation and power and frustrations (sex first).

But some churchs still don't have understood we have to love any one and can't kill anyone or arn't they Christian actually? Yes, they arn't!

If Islam is a little or more in the inquitition. In the same way that Bush is killing in Jesus name and also making money.

Islam have to fight as Bush promited to destroy Islam that is not a real religion for him, it mean to kill people, it's not Christian at all.

See the 9/11 INDEX thread

[edit on 24/6/2004 by Alchy]

Thanks for replying!

Originally posted by dlbrandt
What a real christian(when I say real I mean a christian who is truly born again)believes is that people are made of a body, soul and spirit. Our body is obvious. Our soul is our mind, will, emotions and intellect. Our spirit is our ability to communicate and have a relationship with God. When Adam and Eve sinnned their spirit died, literally. Everyone after them has been born with a dead spirit,literally. We have no desire for the true God. We care about ourselves and putting us first. We are bent toward sin and bent away from God. We are seperated from God by our sins.

Okay so you believe that babies are sinless, but they are inclined to sin. That's more similiar to Islam.

Jesus Christ came and took upon Himself all the sin of every person who has ever or will ever live. God poured out His wrath for that sin on Christ. You mean God has wrath. Yes. He is a God of love, but He also is a God of justice.

Poured His wrath out on himself too (Trinity), you mean? So this is just saying God punished a good man (or even Himself) and allowed everyone else who believed He exists to sin essentially for free? I'm not yet getting the logic of this justice.

Sin had to be atoned for. Christ is God's way of salvation. Christ paid the death penalty of eternal seperation from God for mankinds sin. When a person hears and feels the call of God, convicting them of sin, and they accept Jesus Christ as the only way of forgiveness, at that moment they are "born again". The Holy Spirit enters the body of a believer(literally) and makes our dead spirit alive again. Then we want to know God. Our desires change. Does this happen all at once, no. Do real christians sin, yes, but if we are growing in our relationship with God it is less in frequency and intensity. so the answer to one of your questions is yes, God slowly cleanses us of sin. Will we ever be sinless on earth, no.

What is sin? Is it disobeying God and if so where are His laws written.

We long for the day of Christ's return, read 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. When Jesus returns we will be given a body that cannot sin. The lie about the Bible being corrupted and false is just that, a lie. My God is strong enough to keep His word correct through the centuries so that we can have it today.

Corrupt just means people have added to it and changed it, how can you deny that? Some Bibles have more books than others. Where's the original language version, a translation is just a man's interpretation (corruption).

What about those who lived before Christ. Those who in faith followed the foreshadowing of Christ by the animal sacrifice system set up on God's terms are just as saved as I am.

Does this mean those ancient people who sacrificed a lamb on an altar can get to Heaven because they killed an animal, and each time they sinned they just needed to kill another animal to make up for it? I'm sorry but I don't fully understand this.

It seems to me that a Christian can genuinely believe there is a God Jesus and from that point on let Jesus take the blame for any wrong-doing that he as a Christian does. So if he knowingly kills out of greed, that is okay because the Holy Spirit is cleansing him and all will be forgiven. Please tell me if I have understood this right, thanks.





[edit on 25-6-2004 by mithras]