Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


Thanks for your reply.

The things we see as unjust, natural disasters, atrocities, are all tests of faith for believers.

I do not see how getting killed in a hurricane or tsunami is any kind of test of faith for the person dying. The difference with Job is that he wasn't killed.

I do not quite understand the rest of your post. Could you explain further, if you are able?

Kind regards

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I would have to say that the content does matter because people believe it literally and use it for justifications for their own actions. And sure, how and what you use it for is important. The danger lies within the fact that the moral ambiguity of the bible provides the equivalent of a blank slate: one man may use it to find comfort for his soul, another man may use it to rationalize murdering an abortion doctor.

Let's look at the facts in the OP at face value. Millions killed by god. Millions more killed in the name of this god, from ancient times to present. On that basis alone does it not make this book seriously dangerous literature?

I agree. The content does matter. It was meant as a warning to do good. be just, otherwise God will either 'smite' you, or punish you in the afterlife.

People have to look at WHO is using this literature for good, and WHO is using it for evil. Just like a gun - guns don't kill, people do.

God didn't make spears, knives, guns, or tanks. Man did.

It was never meant to be taken literally. Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors to provide many-faceted answers to the questioning mind for men to think upon. No where in the bible did Jesus say to kill a person, but G.W.Bush is quick to throw God's name into his speeches of war.

Literal interpretation is a control tool for some christian churches. Never once would you hear of one of their bible study classes ending up with the outcome that the churches viewpoint was wrong, and little johnny's interpretation was better and should be adopted. They will just hammer the churches view until all in the group agree on the point. The fact that it is open for interpretation give the church the capacity to push their viewpoint for there purpose. That is where the danger comes from.

At least the Jews and Muslims have one true standard of Bible. There are lots of differing versions of the New testament. The original Hebrew Bible and the dead sea scrolls confirm that Moses crosses the 'Sea of Reeds' not the mistranslated 'Red Sea'. Jews and Muslims both extol 'seeking knowledge' and encourage examining the other religious books. A lot of Christian religions frown on this. I know some baptists who would be shunned if they even thought about picking up a Qur'an.

Dying is a bit of a bummer, but it is unavoidable and not to be feared. A person who does not fear death is a formidable foe - and a worry to TPTB.

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


Careful, you are walking the heretical line.

Yes, death is NEVER to be feared, unless of course you do not walk the line of righteousness.

I do agree with you on the CHURCH "organized" religion component.

Like a flock of sheep, the church is only as good as it's Shepard.

Though we ALL walk through the shadow of death, his will comforts and protects me.

On earth as it is in heaven.

If your life on earth is hell, so shall your life be in heaven.

Individual salvation.

Thanks for your posts on this thread.

Sorry OP if I went riddling.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami

The things we see as unjust, natural disasters, atrocities, are all tests of faith for believers.

I do not see how getting killed in a hurricane or tsunami is any kind of test of faith for the person dying. The difference with Job is that he wasn't killed.

I do not quite understand the rest of your post. Could you explain further, if you are able?

Kind regards

Losing a loved one to something like a tsunami (or anyone for that matter) is the test of faith for the ones left behind (losing someone they loved, there house etc).
Job's faith was tested by him losing all his family and everything else. That was the point that material things and loved ones etc are inconsequential.

When you love someone you do so with all your heart because time is precious. You mourn their death initially as you have lost that love and happiness. This is a loss of your happiness and your security.
But this is a natural reaction and you should not let this linger too long in your heart. Negative emotions are only destructive to yourself and nothing else. Grief, Anger, Jealously, Envy, are all wasted emotions and effect yourself negatively. Love and Happiness effect you positively. So, like Job who lost everything, but never lost his love for God. Whoever has past away will answer to God whether they had lead a good life or otherwise. For those who survive a disaster in life, they have the beautiful memories of their time with the loved one.
Its late here and i am rambling. hope this explained better?

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


Thank you for your reply.

Losing a loved one to something like a tsunami (or anyone for that matter) is the test of faith for the ones left behind (losing someone they loved, there house etc).

In many cases, there are no survivors to these horrible disasters. There are no family members left who's faith can be tested.

Whoever has past away will answer to God whether they had lead a good life or otherwise.

I do think that you have to do more than simply good acts and living a good life to have entrance into Heaven.

The rest of your post, I agree with.

Kind regards

Originally posted by Balkan
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

I stand corrected. Thank you.

But that said. He gave us the free will to follow or reject that evil.

Isn't that why early christian chose death in the colloseums of rome rather than deny Jesus as their saviour. They died, but triumphed in the face of an evil they chose to reject using their free will?

Originally posted by Faiol
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

this is one of the most entertaining threads ever ... I mean, come on

when people expose that their God is actually a psychopath if he exists, people still find ways to defend him

thats why I say

YOU CAN INTERPRET WHATEVER YOU WANT FROM THESE RELIGION BOOKS

Faiol, you are so right in your observations. And to top it off, this psychopathic God of the Old Testament was not even the real God. He was just a local God with a serious personality disorder who favored the Israelites, probably one of a group of ancient astronauts that brought all of their hangups from their home planet to earth and fought like cats and dogs using humans as scapegoats and pawns. If there is such a thing as God, it is no more than the creative principle underlying the nature of matter. It is not something you worship, or you might as well worship the sun because without the sun, life on earth would not exist. So Sun worship is just as valid as worshiping any so called God.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
reply to post by CitizenNum287119327

 

Thank you for your reply.

Losing a loved one to something like a tsunami (or anyone for that matter) is the test of faith for the ones left behind (losing someone they loved, there house etc).

In many cases, there are no survivors to these horrible disasters. There are no family members left who's faith can be tested.

Wasn't yours?

Whoever has past away will answer to God whether they had lead a good life or otherwise.

I do think that you have to do more than simply good acts and living a good life to have entrance into Heaven.

good acts, living a good life, faith... what else? good pretty much covers most things doesn't it?

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


I would like to give my quick opinion on this post.

He gave us the free will to follow or reject that evil.

I believe in determinism, but I will ignore that for the time being.

Even if determinism is false, I do not think we have free will. If God is all knowing, then he was completely aware of all future events. He knew before he created the world the people that would go to Hell. To know the future perfectly means it is unchangeable.

Kind regards

Why do you guys chose religions ?
Just a question ?
In stead of going back and searching for the truth, people like to argue on religion. In all the paintings, we see ufos, fallen angels, we worship them.
There is no god in the skies, that is not it, they manipulated humanity.
God is bigger than we can imagine, they took the truth and made it hidden.
The puppet masters are not god, they are just the puppet masters.
It's what they want you to do, blame god for it. Books have been manipulated, crossed with other cultures, mixed.
What does god have to do with these evil entities ?

God does not play games, does not torture people, the arhitect just builds stuff, that is god, it's a creative positive force, it's not an evil entity that plays games, it's divine.

Then comes the hatchery of angels that protects the top, the crown, god.
Then comes other forms of entities. We are getting played big time.

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


Thanks for the reply.

Wasn't yours?

I have no faith to be tested, but if I did, it probably would be. However, I do not see how it is fair that my faith is able to be tested, while the people who ended up dying are not able to be tested any longer.

Basically, I am left alive and given further time to make my decision about God, but they died by God's own hand, cut short and not given an equal amount of time. It does not seem fair.

good acts, living a good life, faith... what else? good pretty much covers most things doesn't it?

You did not mention faith in the original post. That is the other thing I was going to mention that is required. I do not quite understand how simply faith can be considered good.

Kind regards

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Hitotsumami]

reply to post by Hitotsumami

I believe in determinism, but I will ignore that for the time being.

Even if determinism is false, I do not think we have free will. If God is all knowing, then he was completely aware of all future events. He knew before he created the world the people that would go to Hell. To know the future perfectly means it is unchangeable.

He's good. I'll give him that.

You have free will. Just because he knows the path you will take doesn't change that fact. Knows when you will be born, when you will die, and everything in between. If he is prefect, he would create a perfect universe. We are the ones who have to crawl before we can walk.

de·ter·min·ism (n)
The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.

In his position, he would know all those 'antecedent states of affairs'?
Life's our test, not his. Maybe its like trying to lie to the person in the mirror. Someone said you can't lie to God when you pray/talk to him.

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


Thanks for your reply.

You have free will. Just because he knows the path you will take doesn't change that fact. Knows when you will be born, when you will die, and everything in between. If he is prefect, he would create a perfect universe. We are the ones who have to crawl before we can walk.

If I ignore determinism, then you brought up a good point. Even if God knows what will happen, it does not affect the choices we made.

However, this implies something else.

God was perfectly aware of all the people who would end up going to Hell. Yet, he let these people come into existence anyway. I do not see this as good.

In his position, he would know all those 'antecedent states of affairs'?

The antecedent states are all things that happened directly int he past. God, as far as I know, would know what happens in the future as well.

Kind regards

reply to post by Hitotsumami

You did not mention faith in the original post. That is the other thing I was going to mention that is required. I do not quite understand how simply faith can be considered good.

faith would mean belief in God? all the bibles say it's need to get into heaven.
other things would be (though still under the broad umbrella of 'good'): compassion, empathy and being just.

I have only read the books. i am not in any religion. starting to lean that way though.

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


Playing devil's advocate (pun!) against my own argument, I will say there are Christian websites that tackle those passages and others. You might want to look them up.

Also, is it freewill or an ultimatum that he gave us? How free are we when someone puts a gun to our head and tells us, "well, you can do it anyway you want to, but if you don't do it my way you know where you're going to go!". Sounds like an ultimatum to me!

As I've said many times, and continue to say(!): WE pay the price for our creation. Not God!

But, of course, we are merely little monkeys that cannot possibly understand why a loving God would do all these sick things (throwing children into an eternal fire, advocating subjucation of women, allowing torture of a dedicated devotee over a bet...etc etc etc and more etc), but it's completely ok to give an evil angel free reign over the monkeys, to telepathically tempt us constantly in some sort of sick soul experiment?

Maybe a better topic would be 'Is God really Good?', or 'Why does God display all the characteristics of a Megalomaniac?', or even 'If God were a Man, would he be considered a psychopath?'... etc etc

reply to post by Hitotsumami

God was perfectly aware of all the people who would end up going to Hell. Yet, he let these people come into existence anyway. I do not see this as good.

If our souls are put on this earth as a test of our faith in God, and there was no varying degrees of evil in this world, how would we know the varying degrees of good to make our judgements and excercise our free will?
We are supposedly put here for a reason. Maybe to commit evil, maybe to do good. Then there is that can of worms called repentance...



traditionaldrummer - The OP of this thread may think I am hijacking his thread. It's morphed from the original post.
(and it's 3am here)

reply to post by Balkan

I have not retained much from reading the new testament ages ago. I bwill have to revisit it.

I would think hard about the ultimatum. I don't have that faith to sacrifice my life on this ball of rock. Those early christian dying for their belief had nuts!

we have a choice in what path we choose. his ultimatum is that we are here whether we like it or not. the choices we make determine the path somewhat.

The thread started out with the numbers. Its morphed off topic. The Title was right at the start but the discussion has moved it towards the title you suggest.

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


Thanks for your reply

If our souls are put on this earth as a test of our faith in God, and there was no varying degrees of evil in this world, how would we know the varying degrees of good to make our judgements and excercise our free will?

I do not see how this is a response to my comment. God purposely placed people who are destined for Hell. Your response is that we need those evil people?

I don't think so. For one, temptation does not require evil people. For another, since God is all powerful, he could create a world where free will would play out as usual but the end result would not have anyone in Hell. God is all powerful and knowing, so he was perfectly aware of this option, and option that would end in no suffering, yet he chose the one that would end in suffering.

And I think this still applies to the OP's main point. I'm basically asking questions and making points to try to show my opinion that God is not good and all of those deaths should be God's fault.

Kind regards

reply to post by GrinchNoMore


? what do you consider a christian..... don't you know it's alot of different forms.... no human controls me nor book i'm lead by the truth.... and truth is mattafact watch this movie called revelation it came out in 04 maybe that will help you see what i'm tryin to say.... no two people are the same remember that

reply to post by Hitotsumami

Nothing wrong with what you are saying.
There is no reason why he could not have made it a paradise to begin with.
Utopia.
Perhaps religion is nothing more than an attempt to explain human behaviour, and persuade people to be good to their fellow man and not commit acts of evil with the threat of hell and the reward of heaven.
The buddist (and/or hindu) concept of karma is probably no different. Be evil, return as a worm. Be good return as a higher being ultimately to transcend to nirvana and not have to reincarnate again.
Others could say that because there is evil there is no god.
And again, others blamed Mars for evil and war, etc.