Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

We each bring death upon ourselves by our choices.

The OP and those who support his position are typical of our society and humankind at large. Find someone else to blame your failings on so that you don't have to take personal responsibility and so that you don't need to act personally to address the problem.

Death of humankind at Gods hands has always been the fault of man. Even Adam and Eve tried to blame it on each other and the serpent. Each made a personal choice, through personal free will, resulting in personal responsibility.



[edit on 14-8-2010 by slane69]

reply to post by slane69


I would like to give a quick response.

What did Job's family do that brought upon their death? Or the children and women in the cities that God called upon to be killed?

I do not see why God has to cause the death of any man. If someone speaks against God, then let him die on his own time. Who knows, maybe within that time he'll change his ways. If not, in the end, according to the bible, he will receive the punishment.

Kind regards

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Hitotsumami]

reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


Thanks for the reply

There is no reason why he could not have made it a paradise to begin with.
Utopia.

I am not saying God should have created a perfect world. Just a world where in the end, no one suffers. There can still be trails and test of faith, but I do not think they require the deaths of any person. This seems most appropriate for an all loving God.

Thank you for having the conversation with me. Much appreciated.

kind regards

[edit on 14-8-2010 by Hitotsumami]

Originally posted by badw0lf

And no one sees the irony of worshiping this deity?

He created, thus he can take. And that's all groovy??

He created your soul, he will not take that from you,.. once again the understandable focus on physical rather than what is truly important. Your soul is eternal, although I regret to say that some day if you continue down the path you are on you will wish it wasn't.

I think it's really disturbing that people with free will are so accepting of some being that has no direct influence in their life other than what they themselves give, having such total control over their life and death. So willing to accept an inevitable death on the whim of some so called all forgiving creature.

If you have managed to figure out a way to avoid your inevitable death I salute you. Why not accept it and deal with it, the solution to avoiding spiritual death is out there,.... being upset about the inevitability of a physical death doesn't help.

Replace the concept of god with any other thinking being and you have yourself a tyrant.

A "tyrant" who gave all freely, had his people rebel against him, then he sacrificed his son for those same rebels? Doesn't sound like a tyrant to me unless perhaps from the perspective of one of those rebels upset that they weren't given more. The child at Christmas with all the presents upset that he didn't get all he wanted in the way he wanted it,....foolishness.

Be a friend of god and he may kill you if it suits him. But befriend the devil and you know you have a common enemy.

Your choice but at least be aware, the devil is not your friend. He hates you almost as much as he hates God. Every time he looks at you he sees God as you are made in God's image. You are being used as part of his revenge against God.

I would like to reiterate something that others have stated.

Death is not a punishment.

Death IS the doorway.

If one fears mortality, that fear also persuades one's decisions.

Set aside all fear, set aside preconceived ideas. Once one can see beyond preconceived notions, one can reach that what one seeks. Be it enlightenment or knowledge.

Just a couple idears. No one has ALL the answers, one must just ask the RIGHT questions. Who am I? Who are we? What do I represent? A blink of an eye in the perspective of the universe? Or are we a universe upon itself?

Faith is just another component of being. No one or no book or no church or no entity can answer these questions. Only yourself, your being can answer the questions. Just be and believe in yourself and your faith.

There is nothing that defines you. Are you everlasting? Are you finite?

First one must set aside that fear of the unknown and accept this known fact. You cannot and will not be able to shape your existence. You can adjust your own perceptions though. You can make, slight adjustments to your universe. One perception, at a time.

Alright, just went out there a little bit.

Just going to say again though, life is life and death is just another doorway. There cannot be life without death. That is an absolute, but the question is, what is your perception of death? Can it not be beaten by just not fearing it?

reply to post by slane69


This was not directed at me, but I would like to respond.

He created your soul, he will not take that from you,.. once again the understandable focus on physical rather than what is truly important. Your soul is eternal, although I regret to say that some day if you continue down the path you are on you will wish it wasn't.

I can accept that God would not take away your soul. However, when he takes away your body that holds your soul, you are no longer able to make future decisions in accepting God or not. I believe God should allow all people to live to an equal determined age, so all people have the same chance and the same time to decide.

A "tyrant" who gave all freely, had his people rebel against him, then he sacrificed his son for those same rebels? Doesn't sound like a tyrant to me unless perhaps from the perspective of one of those rebels upset that they weren't given more. The child at Christmas with all the presents upset that he didn't get all he wanted in the way he wanted it,....foolishness.

God has done good things, but he has done bad things as well. Although I don't see why a sacrifice was needed, doing so for himself so that it becomes much easier to get into Heaven is a good thing, I suppose.

However, there are many bad things in the Bible. OP has shown a list of some of the people who died by God. I can name more things if you would like me to.

Your choice but at least be aware, the devil is not your friend. He hates you almost as much as he hates God. Every time he looks at you he sees God as you are made in God's image. You are being used as part of his revenge against God.

This does not really have anything to do with the OP, but I would like to respond very quickly with my opinion. God, being all knowing was aware that Satan would go against him and lead up to this huge mess and that would inevitably lead to much suffering and death. God could, being all powerful, change this from ever happening, or set up another situation where so much suffering and sadness is not an end result, but free will still exists. God being all powerful can do this, and being all knowing, knew of this option. He did not choose it though.

Kind regards

reply to post by Hitotsumami


I don't usually quote the bible on ATS but I do it in this instance as the best answer to your question is here:

Romans 3:23-26

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

The present state of humankind is fallen, separated from God, the result is physical and spiritual death. Each of us inherits this fallen state from our ancestors but God has provided an 'out' for spiritual death (i.e. continued separation after the physical death from God) through Jesus Christ.

I could go on but I won't, your answer is there.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami

This does not really have anything to do with the OP, but I would like to respond very quickly with my opinion. God, being all knowing was aware that Satan would go against him and lead up to this huge mess and that would inevitably lead to much suffering and death. God could, being all powerful, change this from ever happening, or set up another situation where so much suffering and sadness is not an end result, but free will still exists. God being all powerful can do this, and being all knowing, knew of this option. He did not choose it though.

Kind regards

If only that were possible, and I wish it was. In the presence of good and evil free will must include the possibility for both, otherwise it is not truly free. Evil results in sadness and suffering. By default free will cannot exist without sadness and suffering.

Could God change the system to operate differently? Raises interesting questions about the nature of good and evil and the nature of God, questions no human can answer.

Peace

Absolute power corrupts absolutly, I can't see god being ammune from this some how.

The morning star, the devil, satan what ever you want to call him was created by god the way he was. The devil is one of the many that never had a choice. God created the devil to tempt Adam and Eve which means he knew Eve was going to eat from the tree of Knowladge thus Adam fell so man could be and gain salvation.

It was all planned out.

I have a personal theroy that god and the devil are actually one and the same person just one is evil there other is good that way the absoulte power can be wileded by god in any form he chooses.

I might be wrong but my belief in an all loving and carring god went out the window years ago when I realised he screwed over Adam and Eve.

The real scary part is that god if he exsists created all of us exactly the way we are good and bad.

Some will argue that its nurture not nature that defines how a person will be but I think that god cannot exsist without good and evil they are entwined as without evil we cannot know who is good and with good we cannot know who is evil.

reply to post by slane69


Thank you for the response.

Romans 3:23-26

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

Your post seems to basically be saying God gave us a way to escape spiritual death by choosing to believe in Jesus.

I do not quite see how this is a response to my comment. I will post it again:

I can accept that God would not take away your soul. However, when he takes away your body that holds your soul, you are no longer able to make future decisions in accepting God or not. I believe God should allow all people to live to an equal determined age, so all people have the same chance and the same time to decide.

Even if Jesus is the way out of spiritual death, it does not affect that all people do not have equal opportunity to it. No one lives for an equal amount of time or have the same variables in their life. Therefore, it is not just or fair.

Could God change the system to operate differently? Raises interesting questions about the nature of good and evil and the nature of God, questions no human can answer.

Being all powerful, and creating the system in the first place, he should be able to cause these things to operate differently. This is basically my point.

Thanks again for replying. I appreciate it.

Kind regards

Originally posted by lee anoma
If playing God is committing murder and it is an evil act, what does that make God?

- Lee

God.
2nd line.

[edit on 8/14/2010 by The Endtime Warrior]

miss quote





[edit on 14-8-2010 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by lee anoma


I don't think the OP is talking about God letting someone die of old age, but rather personally attempting to end someones life because he is displeased with their choices.

In other words...murder.

Or the act of nature/god.....murder is only done by man since he has the freedom of choice. To say God murders is like saying a hurricane murders.

If playing God is committing murder and it is an evil act, what does that make God?

Ya I guess for some it is hard to understand...

Man has the freedom of choice to help or hurt as he chooses. When he hurts we call this an evil act. To suggest God is like man is suggesting the universe is like man. You are just trying to lable god as human and he is not.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
God.. his actions were right and just in his own eye and that is all that matters.

Man killing Gods creation = Evil.

God killing his own creation = Good.

It's not like God is killing someone elses creation.

God cannot be evil or wrong for killing his own creation.

That doesn't square up with my sense of morality in any way. God most certainly can be wrong for murdering millions of people.

That's because you have a lack of understanding about God. Our views on morality mean nothing compared with Gods views. His ways are infinitely higher than our ways, His thoughts are infinitely higher than our thoughts.

If you had the power to create universes you might see things from a different perspective and thus be able to conceive higher reasoning as God does.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Village Idiot says,

So by your logic, I have every right to kill my Kids..... after all, I created them right?

Wrong.

You do not have any claim to your kids. You do not own them, you did not create them. You can no more create a child as you can breathe life into something that's dead.

What you and your wife did to 'make' the kids is allow yourselves to be used as tools. Machines. God allows the child to be conceived and grow and gives it life and a soul. You or your wife has no control over these things. Your child is a special gift that belongs to God and is only given to you to take care of for a short 50 or 60 years. The child is not really ever yours.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


This was not directed at me, but I would like to respond.

That's because you have a lack of understanding about God. Our views on morality mean nothing compared with Gods views. His ways are infinitely higher than our ways, His thoughts are infinitely higher than our thoughts.

If it is morally good for God to kill, then even if he is proven to exist, I do not wish to follow him.

If I could create the universe, and for some odd reason wanted to create beings to love me, I would give them all equal opportunity, equal time, and the same variables, and I would be self apparent, there in physical form always so no one can deny my existence.

If you do not do this, it becomes unfair and unjust.

And even if those decided not to worship me, I wouldn't decide to send them to a place of forever torment. I would let them live in their own separate world, but always leave the offer open.

God was completely aware that he could do this, since he is all knowing. This thought passed through his mind, and the option was there. He decided not to use it though.

I do not understand, if I am all powerful, how I am able to fathom a universe that does not result in pain and suffering, but still allows free will, and God could not. And if he did, he did not for a more horrible and negative situation.

Kind regards

If you were to take the premise of the question literally it would seem as god would have been the creator of all death, since without life you cannot have death. Christianity celebrates the existence of spiritual eternity with the creator, and physical life is only a path to eternal salvation. I think a better question would be how many people have been helped by the belief in god, as opposed to how many satan has helped, which would still be left up to individual interpretations, but a good conversation albeit.

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

This was not directed at me, but I would like to respond.

That's because you have a lack of understanding about God. Our views on morality mean nothing compared with Gods views. His ways are infinitely higher than our ways, His thoughts are infinitely higher than our thoughts.

If it is morally good for God to kill, then even if he is proven to exist, I do not wish to follow him.

If I could create the universe, and for some odd reason wanted to create beings to love me, I would give them all equal opportunity, equal time, and the same variables, and I would be self apparent, there in physical form always so no one can deny my existence.

If you do not do this, it becomes unfair and unjust.

And even if those decided not to worship me, I wouldn't decide to send them to a place of forever torment. I would let them live in their own separate world, but always leave the offer open.

God was completely aware that he could do this, since he is all knowing. This thought passed through his mind, and the option was there. He decided not to use it though.

I do not understand, if I am all powerful, how I am able to fathom a universe that does not result in pain and suffering, but still allows free will, and God could not. And if he did, he did not for a more horrible and negative situation.

Kind regards

Again, you try to rationalize Gods thinking with your own human limited thinking. You cannot apply what it fair or unjust to you to God. He doesn't work that way.. he's not human. Perhaps him being all knowing gives him insight that you cannot fathom. Thus the reason why he did the things he did.

You cannot just simply say there are things in the bible you choose to disagree with and throw out the rest of what is good in the Bible. You have to remember that the Bible even though the ' Inspired word of God" is not meant to be taken literally. as many people claim for every verse. Many of the stories were written to be examples for various reasons. Archeologists have found evidence of some being true and evidence that others were misrepresented or distorted.

Taking all that into consideration, the Bible contains spiritual laws that do work to bring Happiness, Prosperity, Abundance, Wealth, Health - all aside from a possible eternal salvation - Like Magic, all of the time these Laws simply work if applied correctly.

Which if you study Hell from the Hebrew writings you will find the popular concept of god sending you to a place of fire is not entirely accurate. People who preach fire and brimstone often misrepresent what is actually written to meet their own agenda.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Thanks for the reply.

Again, you try to rationalize Gods thinking with your own human limited thinking. You cannot apply what it fair or unjust to you to God. He doesn't work that way.. he's not human. Perhaps him being all knowing gives him insight that you cannot fathom. Thus the reason why he did the things he did.

The Bible speaks of many attributes given to God. He is just, he is all loving. I provided in my comment that he is not just or all loving. If God's version of 'just' and 'all loving' is unfathomable by our human minds, then there was no real reason to even say that he is just or all loving in the Bible in the first place.

And if God, and even his attributes noted in the Bible, are impossible to rationalize, then why should I believe he is so, and what he does is truly good? I am unable to make this decision accurately, since I have no way of knowing.

You have to remember that the Bible even though the ' Inspired word of God" is not meant to be taken literally

How is one to decide what part of the bible is literal and what part of the Bible is not. God was perfectly aware that I would have this problem, and many other people would as well, and one simple solution is to place a marker in the Bible on what is supposed to be taken literally and what is not. God, being all knowing, knew he could do this, but chose not to, and to give me, and many other people, this deep problem of understanding.

People who preach fire and brimstone often misrepresent what is actually written to meet their own agenda.

Just a final note, I don't think most people who preach this has an agenda. If the Bible does not speak of an infinity of torture, then these people are simply saying what they were taught. Not coming up with some special scheme. This is just a personal opinion on most of them, not all.

Again, all of the above is just my own opinion.

Thanks again for responding.

Kind regards

The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson- Jg.15:14-15

EWW what kind of book is this?

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

That's because you have a lack of understanding about God. Our views on morality mean nothing compared with Gods views. His ways are infinitely higher than our ways, His thoughts are infinitely higher than our thoughts.

If you had the power to create universes you might see things from a different perspective and thus be able to conceive higher reasoning as God does.

Hold up a second there, partner. If we're to take the bible as god's book I think it's reasonably certain that we can gain an understanding about god. His ways and thoughts may be infinitely higher but there's still a standard of morality that I can apply. And to me it's not moral to kill simply because you can and simply because you wield more power. And I don't think it's okay simply because he has those attributes.