Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

Originally posted by nlouise
Humans created perfectly: We have ears, eyes, a heart that pumps blood, hair, nose, teeth, ect. We have bodies that 'should' fight disease and illness, everything within our frame carries a unique function. That is physical perfection.

We also have vestigial organs. "Perfect" creations should not exhibit such a feature.

Why birth defects and early abnormalities: A whole host of reasons; vaccines, environmental factors, GM foods, smoking, drinking, perscription drugs, etc. God didn't do this, we did.

This suggests we have the power to overcome a perfect creation from a perfect being. It also calls into question the alleged omniscience of god since he was unable to forsee the biological problems presented from human progress.

'Sin', sin from the beginning, going back to the garden of Eden again. If you hypothetically believe the question you just asked, then obviously we weren't 'slaves' to God as others have claimed. We must have been allowed choices, and obviously the wrong ones were made.

Condemning everyone from birth because of the solitary action of a deceived woman is illogical.

What have I answered, that doesn't make any sense? What is not observable? Can you not see how birth defects can happen? Can you not see that your own body would not be functioning properly if you had not been created by perfection?

As you can see your answers pose more problems. I don't see humans or any other animal as perfectly created in any way. In fact, you or I could easily design a living being much more intelligently, solidly and foolproof than the alleged god did. If humans and other mammals were designed it was a rushed job at best.

I would be asking where disease really does come from. There is a lot of information out there, available to the public.

Indeed there is. The bible attributes the cause of disease to demons. Jesus actually "cured" people's diseases by exorcism. However, we now know that many diseases are caused by germs and other natural causes. This calls into question why the omniscient, all-knowing god's son didn't immediately recognize this, tell us about it and treat the malady appropriately.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
How is it unjust for God to grant you what you ask for, his absence?

Assuming god does exist and these are his conditions it's still unjust to lay out such rules for a logical and thinking human while disguising your presence so well to convince some of us of your absence. To cosmically banish people for arriving at the conclusion that god doesn't exist after he intentionally hid so well is disturbingly evil.

God isn't hiding, TD, you're just not looking for him. You've made the determination that he doesn't exist, so, for you, he doesn't. But you have someone, right now, telling you that God exists, and I've seen his presence and impact on my life and the lives of many people around me. I don't consider myself a weak person, or a stupid person, or a gullible person, I just went out looking for the truth and, for me, this is what I found.

The fact that this means nothing to you isn't God's fault. You've had the same opportunities as I have had to know God, and you've chosen another path., and that's perfectly fine. You are entitled to live your life the way you like and have whatever beliefs seem right to you. God grants us all complete freedom to accept him or reject him, just as it should be. Accepting him means accepting the grace of his salvation, which he offers out of his love for you. Without that acceptance, no salvation, and you're not "sent to hell", you're just not allowed to be with God, which is what salvation grants.

Now, it probably seems unfair to you that once you are faced with that concrete proof that you claim to require, it is too late to recant your rejection, because it seems unfair to me as well (which is why I'm kind of okay with the notion of purgatory,) but in no way can this be unjust. Not merely because God cannot be unjust, but because you have spent the whole of your life denying God, then change your mind at the last minute not because you love him, but because you realize what it all means.

Ironically enough, God stops you from doing what you and I find deplorable -- coming to him out of fear of hell.

If what God asked was onerous, that would be one thing, but he doesn't. Just asks that you love him, love everyone else, and accept that gift of salvation. In other words, simply believe, and live your life by that belief. You have said that you're a kind of person who simply cannot do that, but you're wrong in that -- there is nothing genetic that forces disbelief, it is a wall that we put up ourselves by allowing our doubts (and we all have them, even the most devout) to control our decision.

Now that I've answered your question perhaps you could go back and address my previous inquiries.

If you'd be so kind as to restate them and save me the trouble of going back to weed them out, happy to.

Originally posted by Gorman91
You are kind of drawing straws at this point. Return to the basics. It is either all true or all false. Your response is that there are contradictions, and yet you fail to supply them, and then draw straws on other things to divert attention. This is really a sad course.

You're more than capable of going to Google and searching under the term "bible contradictions", or something similar, and addressing the myriad of them already discovered and listed by others.

The fact remains. It is either all true or all false. Not in between. And in order for it all to be true, there must be an unjust action. Now you are welcome, still, on page 44, to prove without a doubt how God is not just. But I've failed to see you actually do this, which again is going on for 44 pages now. Your only response is the event in question. To use the topic as proof to reinforce the topic, is circular logic. Explaining why this question is still being asked 44 pages later.

So please do, if you dare, show how God is unjust. As we continue to await this proof, now 44 pages later.

You see, by killing and torturing people who are clearly innocent of any kind of crime, he acts unjustly. I'm sure you've seen the examples I've listed repeatedly. Also by banishing people to hell for the crime of not worshipping him, and allowing some into heaven even though the worshipper may be the most evil and murderous individual on the planet. Mitigating such a decision on a single, arbitrary and selfish condition is unjust.

Originally posted by eight bits
We are, after all, discussing justice. And adj's question was, how was that unjust?

Giving somebody what they have asked for, without depriving anybody else of it, seems like a good candidate for a morally neutral or even affirmatively just act.

Unless, of course, you and I end up as roomies

.

I addressed adjensen by pointing out that the question itself was loaded and flawed. You've taken it further by suggesting I'm "asking for it". All the while this particular question is designed to distract from the other points I presented to adjensen so we could deal specifically with The Christian Threat Of Hell.

In my response to him I've already listed the ways in which this concept and set of conditions is unjust. If we wish to explore god's unjustness we may want to return to the topic of him killing people.

In my response to him I've already listed the ways in which this concept and set of conditions is unjust.

But your answer to adj was based on the assumption that dead people would be judged without being given all the information necessary to make an informed choice.

Assuming god does exist and these are his conditions it's still unjust to lay out such rules for a logical and thinking human while disguising your presence so well to convince some of us of your absence. To cosmically banish people for arriving at the conclusion that god doesn't exist after he intentionally hid so well is disturbingly evil.

There's nothing in the Bible about that, as far as I know.

Swedenborg believed otherwise. There is a small Christian denomination that follows his writings, but apparently he was also within the ambit of Lutheran theology. There was an inquiry into his orthodoxy while he was alive, apparently a question of state in his native country, and no finding was entered against him. He was buried from a Lutheran church, which has, I believe, similar significance as Roman Catholic burial practice.

Now, as to adj's views on the matter, that is clearly his own affair. He and I discussed those views a while back on another thread, hence my remark about you and I being roommates. But I don't see that your objection reaches the entire Christian community, regardless of what adj's personal beliefs are.

And in any case, I didn't take disclosure to be your issue. You believe that God is unfair, on the assumption that he exists, and on the assumption that the Bible already tells you what you need to know to make a judgment.

So, clearly, there would be no injustice in simply granting your expressed and obviously sincere wish. God proving his existence to you would be irrelevant. You objection is not that he doesn't exist, but that if he exists, that he is unjust and unworthy of your company.

That can be fixed. What's the problem?

If we wish to explore god's unjustness we may want to return to the topic of him killing people.

Funny, I thought we had made the natural progression from the middle of the story (God "kills someone") to the end of the story (God "rewards" or "punishes" the dead person). Recall that the premise of the thread is to accept the reality of Biblical God concepts.

To omit the possibly compensatory aspects of the story would be like saying how many people were made homeless by the Tennessee Valley Authority, without also discussing that the homeowners were paid for their property. The involuntary sales might still have been unfair, but you need to discuss the whole story before you make that judgment, in my view.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

We also have vestigial organs. "Perfect" creations should not exhibit such a feature.

Adam and Eve did not have vestigial organs. Satan knew this when he lied and said that Eve would not die from eating the fruit. One of the end results of that was pain in Eve during future childbirth.

This suggests we have the power to overcome a perfect creation from a perfect being. It also calls into question the alleged omniscience of god since he was unable to forsee the biological problems presented from human progress

No. God foresaw what would happen as a result of sin and he warned about it. I am suggesting that we (mankind) are also contributing to our own problems. The power to overcome comes from God. This can be done, when addressed through the proper order of things.

Condemning everyone from birth because of the solitary action of a deceived woman is illogical.

Children are not held accountable. When a person reaches an age of accountability, that is when they become responsible for their own actions.

As you can see your answers pose more problems. I don't see humans or any other animal as perfectly created in any way. In fact, you or I could easily design a living being much more intelligently, solidly and foolproof than the alleged god did. If humans and other mammals were designed it was a rushed job at best.

My husband and I work with mentally challenged adults on a rotational basis, using ceramic art. Anyways, I know that most of these people were born that way, some exceptions. Until we began doing these events about 4 years ago, I had no idea just how many people out there, are this way. While we can sit back and make the assumption all day long that God didn’t create them right, there are too many undressed issues that may have contributed to begin with. Some of those same issues were possible 2000 years ago.


Rush job? OP, please don’t tell me that you are playing drums like Rick Allen. I'll not comment on the rest of that statement until I see you produce a human through your own means.

Indeed there is. The bible attributes the cause of disease to demons. Jesus actually "cured" people's diseases by exorcism. However, we now know that many diseases are caused by germs and other natural causes. This calls into question why the omniscient, all-knowing god's son didn't immediately recognize this, tell us about it and treat the malady appropriately.

Ahhhhh. The demons. Yes there are demons that can enter through gateways such as drugs and occult practice. Back in Jesus’ day and even today the Kabbalists are practicing ‘black arts’ to gain hidden knowledge in the Torah. This opens them up to the spirit realm, as does drugs. Sin is bondage, and opens the doors to infliction by Satan, who has no prejudice when it comes to inflicting disease of the mind, such as schizophrenia.


Jesus did confront that issue (sickness and disease) and he healed many of them. I can even show you scripture in the Bible that supports those issues. Not everything that was attributed to demons was from the perspective of needing exorcism, some of it came from the perspective that sin allowed the illness to evolve. Perhaps the blind man was blind from birth because of something the parent did to cause the effect during conception. We don’t know, we can only speculate. The parent could have been completely drunk and fell off a camel. We don’t know. The issue that was addressed was the disease and also what Jesus did with it. Also, Jesus had the ability to know where that disease, birth defect, or mental disorder came from to begin with. He was providing us with the means to get rid of these things.

God does address what to do with medical illness in the OT, and in detail. When Jesus came he showed how it could be commanded to go. OP, would you rather spend a month using hysop and other things to get rid of an malady, or would you rather just be immediately healed? The Bible shows it 2 ways.

Originally posted by eight bits
And in any case, I didn't take disclosure to be your issue. You believe that God is unfair, on the assumption that he exists, and on the assumption that the Bible already tells you what you need to know to make a judgment.

So, clearly, there would be no injustice in simply granting your expressed and obviously sincere wish. God proving his existence to you would be irrelevant. You objection is not that he doesn't exist, but that if he exists, that he is unjust and unworthy of your company.

That can be fixed. What's the problem?

That much is true. If the biblical god exists and Jesus was accurate about his claims then the biblical god is unjust, contrary to the claims of others who state otherwise.

Now, back to your other claim: that I have an "expressed and obviously sincere wish". I don't recall expressing any kind of a wish whatsoever. Perhaps I have simply forgotten something though and you could point me to the post where I expressed one.

Originally posted by nlouise
Adam and Eve did not have vestigial organs.

How do you know this and at what point did an allegedly perfect creation become modified? If it was modified, how then is it still perfect?

No. God foresaw what would happen as a result of sin and he warned about it. I am suggesting that we (mankind) are also contributing to our own problems. The power to overcome comes from God. This can be done, when addressed through the proper order of things.

I agree we contribute to our own problems. If there's a power to overcome our problems and god could have forseen such issues why did he not make an otherwise perfect creation impervious to inevitable future problems> In other words, it implies poor design.

Children are not held accountable. When a person reaches an age of accountability, that is when they become responsible for their own actions.

I thought that the biblical viewpoint indicated that we were born sinners.

My husband and I work with mentally challenged adults on a rotational basis, using ceramic art. Anyways, I know that most of these people were born that way, some exceptions. Until we began doing these events about 4 years ago, I had no idea just how many people out there, are this way. While we can sit back and make the assumption all day long that God didn’t create them right, there are too many undressed issues that may have contributed to begin with. Some of those same issues were possible 2000 years ago.

That's a very honorable task. I wish you the best and thank you for your work.

Rush job? OP, please don’t tell me that you are playing drums like Rick Allen. I'll not comment on the rest of that statement until I see you produce a human through your own means.

I simply don't have the means, though I could draw up a blueprint for a much better design. I'm certain you could also. Imagine what an engineer could do.

God does address what to do with medical illness in the OT, and in detail. When Jesus came he showed how it could be commanded to go. OP, would you rather spend a month using hysop and other things to get rid of an malady, or would you rather just be immediately healed? The Bible shows it 2 ways.

Unfortunately, the bible identified an improper cause of disease and people such as Jesus performed impossible treatments of such diseases. Such stories call much into doubt: most notably, that the allegedly omniscient god failed to identify proper cause and treatment. Given that modern medicine reveals this story to be errant, what are we to make of the biblical claims and the accuracy of the bible?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
That much is true. If the biblical god exists and Jesus was accurate about his claims then the biblical god is unjust, contrary to the claims of others who state otherwise.

Jesus was accurate about what claims?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

How do you know this and at what point did an allegedly perfect creation become modified? If it was modified, how then is it still perfect?

We are talking two kinds of perfection.

#1 (physical perfection)
#2 (perfection of the heart) Who we are

This is how I know we had physical perfection

Gen. 1
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This is the point at which physical perfection was modified:

Gen. 3
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This is the instruction to be made perfect: (heart)

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (King James Version)
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This is the result: (heart)

1 John 2:5 (King James Version)
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Instruction for healing: (physical)

James 5:14 (King James Version)

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

My god, jesus said something about rubbing oil?
He obviously knew about the germ theory of disease!

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

I agree we contribute to our own problems. If there's a power to overcome our problems and god could have forseen such issues why did he not make an otherwise perfect creation impervious to inevitable future problems> In other words, it implies poor design.

Nothing was wrong with the original design. Our resistance to future problems changed when sin entered the world. There is a connection between sin & disease.

God is able to cause disease (as a result of sin), as well:

Exodus 15:26 (King James Version)
26And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
2 Chronicles 21:18 (King James Version)
18And after all this the LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease.

And God is able to take disease away:

Psalm 103:2-4 (King James Version)
2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

I simply don't have the means, though I could draw up a blueprint for a much better design. I'm certain you could also. Imagine what an engineer could do.

You are funny. I think I will stick to clay and painting.

Unfortunately, the bible identified an improper cause of disease and people such as Jesus performed impossible treatments of such diseases. Such stories call much into doubt: most notably, that the allegedly omniscient god failed to identify proper cause and treatment. Given that modern medicine reveals this story to be errant, what are we to make of the biblical claims and the accuracy of the bible?

What is impossible with God? (Jesus was/is God, by the way) Where did God fail to identify proper cause and treatment? Modern medicine only reveals what modern medicine can prove. Modern medicine didn’t cure me, God did. I know I am not the only one.

I thought that the biblical viewpoint indicated that we were born sinners.

We are born into sin, but we are only held responsible at an age that we are cognizant of it.

That's a very honorable task. I wish you the best and thank you for your work.

Oh- Thank you.

Now, back to your other claim: that I have an "expressed and obviously sincere wish". I don't recall expressing any kind of a wish whatsoever. Perhaps I have simply forgotten something though and you could point me to the post where I expressed one.

I wrote:

So, clearly, there would be no injustice in simply granting your expressed and obviously sincere wish.

Would is subjunctive. There is no claim made in that sentence. The situation is hypothetical. The sentence refers to the premise of adj's as yet unanswered, and still being discussed, question from the previous page:

You know what God offers you, and you reject it, and you reject him. You go one step further by actively working against him, trying to convince believers that it is all a lie. When judgement of your behaviour comes, God grants you your wish, permanent absence from him.

How is this unjust?

You wrote that it was a threat (or "The Threat").

Adj disputed that characterization. I joined in at some point, saying that I didn't see his writing as a threat to you. Discussion has continued from there, since you graciously agreed to "play along."

Adj's premise is that you have a grantable wish and that you have been expressive about it. Obviously, if adj's premise simply doesn't apply to you, then that would be a fine answer to make. Since that hasn't been your rebuttal, discussion of your actual rebuttal has continued under his uncontested premise.

Originally posted by eight bits
Adj's premise is that you have a grantable wish and that you have been expressive about it. Obviously, if adj's premise simply doesn't apply to you, then that would be a fine answer to make. Since that hasn't been your rebuttal, discussion of your actual rebuttal has continued under his uncontested premise.

Except that he can't make that claim, because I'm just asking him to clarify his existing statements, which were:

It seems to me that this god has a real bloodlust for such a merciful god. And what does he do to people such as me who don't believe and worship him? Eternal torture. It would seem to me that this god and his followers have a lot of explaining to do...

and

I'm not so certain of this. A core part of christian justice involves the banishment to hell for the non-believer. Technically, one could be a mass murderous, child abusing, pedophile rapist, accept Jesus on his deathbed and be granted access to heaven. Though the nonbeliever who lived a charitable life as a good person gets eternal torture. I'm not certain this could be called "just".

In both instances, he's claiming or implying that God is unjust through his "eternal torture" decree.

However, as I stated above, TD isn't being penalized for rejecting God, he's simply receiving in the next life what he has requested in this life, existence apart from God. The nuts and bolts of that existence, whether "eternal torture" or something else, don't really matter, because the only other alternative is precisely what he's proclaimed he doesn't want.

Let's say that I decide that I don't believe in modern medicine. I've heard lots of stories about how helpful it is, but I fail to see it -- hey, every time I go to the doctor, I seem to be sicker, and it didn't do anything for my wife or two of my friends, all of whom died in their mid-40s. So I decide to reject it, and go it alone.

Shortly thereafter, I get cancer and, refusing to get treatments, I die.

Do you blame modern medicine for my death? Or blame my bad decision?

Originally posted by hippomchippo
My god, jesus said something about rubbing oil?
He obviously knew about the germ theory of disease!

You are laughing, but I am living proof.

'Better the last smile than the first laughter. -John Heywood

Well, see there you go again, adj, ignoring the context and making this thread be about TD's scrupulously hidden personal beliefs, instead of the unbiased and dispassionate inquiry into serial mass murder that it is intended to be.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I did Google search it. I got bored after the first couple proved to be incorrect statements. It is your thread. Supply the proof.

The people were nor clearly innocent. In fact, the only thing we know about them is that they were people. And because the old testament didn't exactly count children as people, we can already see a selection of the adults. As was stated, God was already angry at Israel. And with previous statements about Israel raping and pillaging, I honestly have to cast doubt on your claim of them clearly being innocent people.

You are assuming their innocents based on the statement of 70,000 people. The only description of these people IS that they were people. In order for you to make a claim of

clearly innocent of any kind of crime

You have to supply the proof. Thus far your only proof has been that they did not do David's sin. However we already know that Israel had done some sin aside from David to make God angry at them. It is stated that God was angry. It is stated that Israel was the cause of this anger. It is stated that people died. HOWEVER. It is never stated that they were clearly innocent. In fact now that we look back at it more, we can see God was angry is Israel for their actions.

Thus we now know they were not innocent, but we do not know what they did. The fact that it is now clearly stating their guilt in the beginning opens them to the death they have received.

So again. Now we know they are guilty of something.

Stop drawing straws. Start supplying proof. or all you look like is a troll. Now you've made several more claims without proof. So once more we must begin to question you.

Originally posted by nlouise

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
Sure is oftly Interpretation in here. 40 pages worth of interpretation. Does anyone find it odd that you would have to try and determine what was really meant in these books? Dude is Blues Clues out the ying yang. I guess this is why there are 10,000 different branches of three religious books.

Blues Clues out the ying yang?

Yes, 10,000 branches of three religious books, but 9,999 imposters. There is power in many of them, but there is only one that trumps them all. That one has the power of perfection and perfect love, which casts out all fear.

You obviously DON'T mean Christianity/Islam/Judaism then!!!!!!

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Well GOD will teach all if you decide to go against his word he has said what he wants you to do and how he would like you to live your life so if you decide to not follow it there can and will repercussions and all will find out on the second coming