Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen

Why? There's absolutely no fibre of your being that believes it's anything other than a work of fiction, so what's the point? You toss this stuff out in an attempt to do what? Analyze the writers of the OT to determine whether they hated their fathers? To try and understand the Jewish nation of the time that apparently needed to view God as angry?

There's no believer who will waver at seeing this, so about the only positive you'll get is a few rah-rahs and pats on the back from people who believe the same thing as you. Otherwise, it's all negativity and serves no purpose. Does the world need more negativity?

What's negative about doing a little bible review? I thought this was a common Sunday experience for many people. I'm just serving up something a bit different than you'll get from the typical pastor.

With a book that's taken so seriously - literally by some - why do you consider it inappropriate to discuss a serious topic taken from the literature? Is it because it conflicts with a pre-existing viewpoint you had about your god? Is it because it places you face to face with some uncomfortable realities? It's in the book and is a worthy point of religious discussion no matter how uncomfortable you may find these facts.

Because it's self serving and little more. It's been done before, so your thread of it is redundant. The equivalent would be my creating a thread called "How many people did atheist government kill in the 1900s?" I'd get righteous indignation from you, pats on the back from Christians, and nothing would progress.

You have told me that you are concerned with mankind and you want to do good. May I suggest that you start by building people up, rather than trying to tear them down? If a person's faith brings them comfort and joy, isn't it a humane thing to just leave them alone than to try and unsettle their faith?

As you might assume, I find no discomfort from these "facts". I am not a fundamentalist, and so would suggest that you take it up with the writers of the Old Testament, who would be Jewish, not Christian, if you truly want feedback.

Originally posted by adjensen

Because it's self serving and little more. It's been done before, so your thread of it is redundant. The equivalent would be my creating a thread called "How many people did atheist government kill in the 1900s?" I'd get righteous indignation from you, pats on the back from Christians, and nothing would progress.

I have already apologized for the redundancy, but so what if it's self-serving? Isn't that the nature of many threads in any forum? And there's a chance it may serve others. You know, someone just might learn something.

You have told me that you are concerned with mankind and you want to do good. May I suggest that you start by building people up, rather than trying to tear them down? If a person's faith brings them comfort and joy, isn't it a humane thing to just leave them alone than to try and unsettle their faith?

Bringing people to the attention of the reality of their religion is important and in many ways could build someone up. If their faith brings them comfort and joy it doesn't bother me to "unsettle their faith", A heroin addict has comfort and joy from the habit but I would have no qualms about pushing them away from it.

As you might assume, I find no discomfort from these "facts". I am not a fundamentalist, and so would suggest that you take it up with the writers of the Old Testament, who would be Jewish, not Christian, if you truly want feedback.

Well, they aren't around to ask about it so it looks like we're going to have to discuss it amongst ourselves.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
You have told me that you are concerned with mankind and you want to do good. May I suggest that you start by building people up, rather than trying to tear them down? If a person's faith brings them comfort and joy, isn't it a humane thing to just leave them alone than to try and unsettle their faith?

Bringing people to the attention of the reality of their religion is important and in many ways could build someone up. If their faith brings them comfort and joy it doesn't bother me to "unsettle their faith", A heroin addict has comfort and joy from the habit but I would have no qualms about pushing them away from it.

So much for my belief that you were honest in your statement that you wanted to do good. Well, you want to do what's good for you, so I guess you've an out there. Marxist claims aside, faith is not heroin, and it's disingenuous of you to justify your actions on that basis.

As you might assume, I find no discomfort from these "facts". I am not a fundamentalist, and so would suggest that you take it up with the writers of the Old Testament, who would be Jewish, not Christian, if you truly want feedback.

Well, they aren't around to ask about it so it looks like we're going to have to discuss it amongst ourselves.

Which is why its absolutely valueless, aside from those pats on the back you're looking for. Neither you nor I was there, neither you nor I is Jewish, and neither you nor I believes that the Old Testament is inerrant. So any discussion that might develop is based on nothing.

Here's a thread that you might appreciate, though: www.abovetopsecret.com... I think that the OP in that is spot on. Do you?

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

jus' sayin'

Originally posted by adjensen

So much for my belief that you were honest in your statement that you wanted to do good. Well, you want to do what's good for you, so I guess you've an out there. Marxist claims aside, faith is not heroin, and it's disingenuous of you to justify your actions on that basis.

Somehow I knew that you were going to think I actually implied that faith was heroin instead of you actually recognizing the context of the statement. And yes, I am doing good. I bring attention to areas of faith that are largely unexplored by most of those with faith. Whether it strengthens their faith or they abandon it a positive effect has been levied on someone's life.

Which is why its absolutely valueless, aside from those pats on the back you're looking for. Neither you nor I was there, neither you nor I is Jewish, and neither you nor I believes that the Old Testament is inerrant. So any discussion that might develop is based on nothing.

You know, I don't present topics here just for you. Other people do find the bible inerrant and I'm interested in their opinions also. Also, I assure you I never posting anything here with the intention of earning back pats. You certainly wouldn't see me posting such threads if I were.

Here's a thread that you might appreciate, though: www.abovetopsecret.com... I think that the OP in that is spot on. Do you?

And here's where you've abandoned all of your integrity. You're implying that my thread is "hate" simply because you dislike the subject matter? Is my title or any of the OP's content consistent with any of the gripes presented in that link? No, it's not. I'm rather surprised that you would make such an insinuation. We've had plenty of respectable discourse in the past and I hardly expected such a thing from you.

reply to post by texastig

Oh great. Another post misrepresenting God again!!! And as always it's out of context. The same pre-digested pablum comes out again and again and again.

So how, pray tell, is it possible to misrepresent an invisible paranoid psychopath that lives in the sky ?

reply to post by adjensen

If a person's faith brings them comfort and joy, isn't it a humane thing to just leave them alone than to try and unsettle their faith?

I'm curious (sorry to but in) as to how many people take comfort and joy in the fact that it could have been the victim of the boxing day tsunami or hurricane katrina.

If the invisible jesus godman in the sky has an issue with people, would it not be humane to have a personal chat with them not utterly destroy towns villages livestock and BABIES ??

As the creator (alleged) of everything the jesus god is responsible for "every" death that has ever occurred. If that is, it is all part of his magical plan, if it is not part of his plan then it must be someone else s plan so he could not be the creator of everything.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

What god from the bible ?
The bible is just a bunch of books, there is no god from the bible, it's only god representing us all, there is really just one god representing all humans on this planet and religion can't account for it. The bible was made up by people
who had intrests, was modified and to everything there is a purpose even if it looks odd. You really have to go back, read other books related to the bible that have not been included in the bible, as other religions as well.
Not even Christ belongs to christianity, can't label god or anyone to one religion, religion is just an idea half truth.

It's all I have to say.

Originally posted by pepsi78
[there is really just one god representing all humans on this planet and religion can't account for it.

So you reject all religion yet still believe in a (monotheistic) god?

Interesting.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by pepsi78
[there is really just one god representing all humans on this planet and religion can't account for it.

So you reject all religion yet still believe in a (monotheistic) god?

Interesting.

Yes I do, don't you look around how things are built ?
Everything provides something, even planets, it's all for it to work, arranged.
Evolution just flunked, not so valid so what theory is up ?
Don't try to say it's valid because laws and particles don't evolve. It's shift shape to the preset, predefined to the core.

You know, someone just might learn something.

Ah, at last, a point.

So, now that we're clear that

> Spoiler Alert <

everybody dies in the Old Testament, whether or not they piss God off (except for Elijah, who didn't piss God off, but it's a little vague what happened to him), maybe it would be helpful if you could just summarize

* who it is you hope will learn from this thread, and

* what it is you hope they will learn.

And, on a personal note: Lol. I love your retreat into "context" after you were called for directly equating religious piety with heroin addiction.

How many times do you think you can go to the "context" well?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
Which is why its absolutely valueless, aside from those pats on the back you're looking for. Neither you nor I was there, neither you nor I is Jewish, and neither you nor I believes that the Old Testament is inerrant. So any discussion that might develop is based on nothing.

You know, I don't present topics here just for you. Other people do find the bible inerrant and I'm interested in their opinions also. Also, I assure you I never posting anything here with the intention of earning back pats. You certainly wouldn't see me posting such threads if I were.

So your contention is that you'll post this, and a fundamentalist is going to come along, read it, and want to engage in thoughtful discourse on it? You must know different fundamentalists than I do.

Your original post is flame bait for a fundamentalist, insulting to a Conservative Jew and pointless for everyone else, who either don't believe in God, or don't believe that the Bible in inerrant.

Here's a thread that you might appreciate, though: www.abovetopsecret.com... I think that the OP in that is spot on. Do you?

And here's where you've abandoned all of your integrity. You're implying that my thread is "hate" simply because you dislike the subject matter? Is my title or any of the OP's content consistent with any of the gripes presented in that link? No, it's not. I'm rather surprised that you would make such an insinuation. We've had plenty of respectable discourse in the past and I hardly expected such a thing from you.

I can see why you'd come to the conclusion that my point was "hate", and I apologize for that implication. I see the point of that thread as being "stop creating threads simply to seed division", which is, in fact, what I see this particular thread as being.

However, it is your thread, and you are welcome to it. I'll see you in another.

Originally posted by eight bits
* who it is you hope will learn from this thread

whoever

* what it is you hope they will learn.

whatever

How many times do you think you can go to the "context" well?

You were confused about context? Imagine that.....

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes I do, don't you look around how things are built ?
Everything provides something, even planets, it's all for it to work, arranged.
Evolution just flunked, not so valid so what theory is up ?
Don't try to say it's valid because laws and particles don't evolve. It's shift shape to the preset, predefined to the core.

Sorry, I don't buy the god hypothesis. Evolution didn't flunk, it's undeniable fact. And it doesn't state that laws and particles evolve. Study up on the scientific theory you argue against.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


It's quite clear that "Satan" in the Bible is really God. No deity would command respect under pain of eternal damnation .. surely only an evil deity would do such a thing?

Originally posted by adjensen
So your contention is that you'll post this, and a fundamentalist is going to come along, read it, and want to engage in thoughtful discourse on it? You must know different fundamentalists than I do.

Your original post is flame bait for a fundamentalist, insulting to a Conservative Jew and pointless for everyone else, who either don't believe in God, or don't believe that the Bible in inerrant.

And yet I've had posts other than your predicted stereotypes. How did that happen?

I can see why you'd come to the conclusion that my point was "hate", and I apologize for that implication. I see the point of that thread as being "stop creating threads simply to seed division", which is, in fact, what I see this particular thread as being.

However, it is your thread, and you are welcome to it. I'll see you in another.

I post threads in which I hope to generate discussion. An optimal way to do this is to post controversial threads. Obviously this thread is exactly that. Many people, yourself included, find the subject matter intriguing thereby prompting people to post (yourself included). Do you wish to discuss the subject or will you persist in the distracting matter of your interpretation of the motivations of my post?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I post threads in which I hope to generate discussion. An optimal way to do this is to post controversial threads. Obviously this thread is exactly that. Many people, yourself included, find the subject matter intriguing thereby prompting people to post (yourself included). Do you wish to discuss the subject or will you persist in the distracting matter of your interpretation of the motivations of my post?

As I am neither Jewish, nor a fundamentalist, there is nothing in the original post to discuss. Your motivations are more interesting than that nothing, hence my posts, which as you will note, have little to do with your post.

How about if you post a thread detailing the kind of world you foresee in the absence of religion? Or what the logic of holding religion responsible today for horrendous behaviour hundreds of years ago might be. Or quantifying how the good the religion does is outweighed by the evil that is attributable to religion, and solely to religion. Or whether eliminating Catholicism would have any impact on the number of pedophiles in the world.

That would be controversial, and would actually be interesting and not necessarily divisive. All of them are offhand claims made by those who strive to end religion, but never elaborated beyond the simplistic proposition. They are also questions that I've directly asked atheists to elaborate on, over and over, including you, and no one has ever even ventured a thoughtful attempt at it.

Originally posted by adjensen
there is nothing in the original post to discuss.

Then don't post here.

Thank you.

Drummer,
seems like you've managed to ruffle a few feathers. Think about the reaction I get when I tell people "God" would have to be a space alien.

You think "God" is 96% monkey too?

LOL, adjensen you crack me up, since you are like almost all christians are led to be, you believe in the infallability of god, which means that this letter is somehow written by him, to you and everything else is the conspiracy.

The bible is a massive conspiracy, to control through various schemes, taking truths and contorting them in different "contexts" so as what you are left with is confusion, that must be covered up by "Faith".

As long as you have faith in something illogical, your defense structures will defend and ignore even the most insane contradictions that are clearly marked there for you to see, but laughingly almost put there to make you defend it all the more.

It gives you the right to say what you call "God" is all powerful and all knowing, and that whatever sin is that it should be "punished". As if there really is a price to pay to a creator who is present in anything, and has noone to answer to.

The belief in Christ dying for your sins is funny too...first you have to believe sin is an offence to said god, that these rules that should be followed actually have a tax on them if broken.

And best of all, you have to accept that death, blood and ferocious pain is what the payment is for transgressions against these common sense laws.

Oh but Jesus changed all that ! He broke open the gates of hell ! He gave us a way out ! The illusion you are trapped into has not been broken, but now changed into something else, a sneaky trick indeed.

I am telling you right now, if Jesus himself returned, he would not hesitate to totally rebuke all that the Bible is reported to say, by those who say it is God's innerant word... and , i have a feeling something like that is just around the corner.