Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says

Originally posted by C0bzz

It looks as if there was some correlation between the sun and temperature especially in the years 1980 and 1985. But solar irradiance stays on the same old cycle, CO2 keeps rising, and temperatures keep rising. It is, therefore, only possible that CO2 is causing the warming, not the sun. PREDICTION: 2012, or 2013 will be the hottest year ever due to solar maximum and further increased CO2 concentrations.


[edit on 8/8/2010 by C0bzz]

Not only is your graph telling, but the fact that you have so little stars on this post is as well. The fact is that a lot of ATS members attach to bogus conspiracy theories because they have issues of their own, and feel the need to project their insecurities onto various sources, like government, and big-business, and the elite. Not to say that there aren't things to get ticked off about. There are, but choose your battles wisely guys. The carbon tax is a scam, but .. people don't want to accept reality ... so .. what are we to do about this?

reply to post by unityemissions


Don't understand - you agree with the graph but think carbon tax is a scam ?

I for one feel there absolutely needs to be a carbon price - do you agree with this ? Or do you saying AGW is a scam ?
Cheers.

What about the Vostok Ice cores. Those cores keep records going way back farther on what the temps and atmosphere was like during the last warming period and ice age. I feel like a broken record but the warming period before our last major ice age was warmer than it is now. It was natural, not man made. So why can it NOT be now? Earth can do this naturally without the help of man. I agree, what we are doing to this planet may be making it worse but it's going to happen whether we interfere or not.

See full article and charts here howcanpeoplebesostupid.com...

On this chart, three things immediately stand out.

1) There is an ice age about every 100,000 to 150,000 years. We are due for one. Of course, since we don’t really understand what causes climate change, and we certainly don’t really understand what causes the ice ages, we cannot say for sure that one is imminent. But, just looking at the graph, I would say that we had better worry about a coming ice age rather than global warming. In fact, if the trend continues, maybe we need to figure out a way to warm the planet to temper the next ice age.

2) It has been warmer in the past at the peaks of the warm interglacial periods. So, if it does get warmer, it is definitely not unprecedented. Anyone who states that it has never been this warm is simply uninformed or lying. If they mean it has not been this warm in the last couple of hundred years, that may be correct. But, since we are coming out of the little ice age, you would expect warmer temperatures. It has been warmer in the last few thousand years, and this is shown in the data.

Originally posted by Quaght

Originally posted by Le Colonel
reply to post by C0bzz

 

your graph does not show enough data. Why cant the Earth heat up, um, every 10,000 years or so..

your little graph of 40 years well shows, 40 years of data.. YOU are saying cause the world heating up in your life time, that it will just continue and continue until we all cook?

it will go back down, and when it does, every person like you will start to say or scream in some cases, GLOBAL COOLING.. oh noos :0

No graph we have can possibly show enough data either way. That's why nobody, NOBODY, can say definitively whether or not man is having an impact on the climate or not. We can only make assumptions and arguments to both. But one of the two we can control.

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
reply to post by unityemissions

 

Don't understand - you agree with the graph but think carbon tax is a scam ?

I for one feel there absolutely needs to be a carbon price - do you agree with this ? Or do you saying AGW is a scam ?
Cheers.

This is a HUGE problem that people have to get passed.

Check it:

Just because the carbon tax is a scam, does not, in any way, indicate that AGW is a hoax. That's illogical.

The science is sound, and is backed by mounds of research data.

If you look closely into the climategate scandal, you'll notice that what's said doesn't truly debunk anything. It shows deliberate misrepresentation of the facts in order to exaggerate the seriousness of the situation in the eyes of the ignorant average observer.

The data in itself is incredibly serious and dire, yet ... people just can't see it I don't know why?!? It must be either that . .. most people truly are ... not too bright, or that they allow their emotions to get in the way of logical analysis.

Found some very interesting charts on sun/CO2 theories !


members.shaw.ca...

and another using Vostok cores

www.skepticalscience.com...

[edit on 9-8-2010 by favouriteslave]

When our sun enters the red giant stage, we will have some real definitive global warming

Also, if we haven't mastered space travel by then, the human race becomes extinct. We have a long time before it happens, I wonder if we will even survive that long. Of course even if we make it out of the solar system, the Milky Way is on a collision course with Andromeda. Seems there is no way for the human race to survive unless we become an intergalactic race.

you might be missing a rather massive point here.

none of the other planets have a significant ozone layer:
wiki.answers.com...'t_the_other_planets_have_an_ozone_layer


Mercury: Not enough atmosphere. So hot that most of the gas can escape.
Venus: Has some ozone in its atmosphere, but not much. Almost no free oxygen. Most ozone found high above the sulfuric acid clouds. Ozone requires replenishment by UV-C, and Venus' atmosphere is so thick, UV-C does not make it far.
Earth: Ozone layer. Moon: No detectable ozone (and not much oxygen).
Mars: Some ozone, almost no free oxygen (so ozone must be formed from "shattered" CO2).
Jupiter's moon Ganymede has some ozone, made almost entirely by charged particle bombardment due to Jupiter's magnetic field.

since it's the ozone layer that protects us from the worst ravages of solar winds and radiation, it's the man-made effects of ozone depletion (such as CFCs) that are having the impact resulting more in global warming.

Sun Blamed for Warming of Earth and Other Worlds

Here is my take on the above statement:



DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Originally posted by unityemissions

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
reply to post by unityemissions

 

Don't understand - you agree with the graph but think carbon tax is a scam ?

I for one feel there absolutely needs to be a carbon price - do you agree with this ? Or do you saying AGW is a scam ?
Cheers.

This is a HUGE problem that people have to get passed.

Check it:

Just because the carbon tax is a scam, does not, in any way, indicate that AGW is a hoax. That's illogical.

The science is sound, and is backed by mounds of research data.

If you look closely into the climategate scandal, you'll notice that what's said doesn't truly debunk anything. It shows deliberate misrepresentation of the facts in order to exaggerate the seriousness of the situation in the eyes of the ignorant average observer.

The data in itself is incredibly serious and dire, yet ... people just can't see it

I don't know why?!? It must be either that . .. most people truly are ... not too bright, or that they allow their emotions to get in the way of logical analysis.

OK a few things - firstly the climate gate scandal did not exaggerate any facts at all - there have been two independent inquiries into it - the comments were taken completely out of context - there was no exaggeration.

Secondly carbon trading is a scam - however a price on carbon is absolutely essential - how that is implemented is up for debate.

Originally posted by favouriteslave
What about the Vostok Ice cores. Those cores keep records going way back farther on what the temps and atmosphere was like during the last warming period and ice age. I feel like a broken record but the warming period before our last major ice age was warmer than it is now. It was natural, not man made. So why can it NOT be now? Earth can do this naturally without the help of man. I agree, what we are doing to this planet may be making it worse but it's going to happen whether we interfere or not.

See full article and charts here howcanpeoplebesostupid.com...

On this chart, three things immediately stand out.

1) There is an ice age about every 100,000 to 150,000 years. We are due for one. Of course, since we don’t really understand what causes climate change, and we certainly don’t really understand what causes the ice ages, we cannot say for sure that one is imminent. But, just looking at the graph, I would say that we had better worry about a coming ice age rather than global warming. In fact, if the trend continues, maybe we need to figure out a way to warm the planet to temper the next ice age.

2) It has been warmer in the past at the peaks of the warm interglacial periods. So, if it does get warmer, it is definitely not unprecedented. Anyone who states that it has never been this warm is simply uninformed or lying. If they mean it has not been this warm in the last couple of hundred years, that may be correct. But, since we are coming out of the little ice age, you would expect warmer temperatures. It has been warmer in the last few thousand years, and this is shown in the data.

Originally posted by Quaght

Originally posted by Le Colonel
reply to post by C0bzz

 

your graph does not show enough data. Why cant the Earth heat up, um, every 10,000 years or so..

your little graph of 40 years well shows, 40 years of data.. YOU are saying cause the world heating up in your life time, that it will just continue and continue until we all cook?

it will go back down, and when it does, every person like you will start to say or scream in some cases, GLOBAL COOLING.. oh noos :0

No graph we have can possibly show enough data either way. That's why nobody, NOBODY, can say definitively whether or not man is having an impact on the climate or not. We can only make assumptions and arguments to both. But one of the two we can control.

you are failing to understand what is being said, I will explain it again so please try and understand it :

We are all very aware of the previous temperature fluctuations - this is a fundamental part of why we are so concerned - the historical temperature variations is caused by three things - variation in our ellipse around the sun (we do not travel in a circle, bit an ellipse, the actual width of this ellipse gets wider and narrower over hundreds of thousands of years), as it narrows we get closer to the sun which causes the regular (every 100,00 years or so) intervals of ice age, relative / warm age. As we travel this varying ellipse we also have natural wobble - this wobble can throw us still further away or closer to the sun causing intermittent variations in the longer term trend such as the mini-ice age in the 17th century. The wobble and elliptical variation can also combine to cause extreme colds (we were once in a period called the Snow Ball phase where almost the entire earth was in ice age).

Finally there is carbon ejections - these are generally very small such as volcanos which are insignificant ejections - however occasionaly we have massive long term ejections such as when India crashed into Eastern Europe which caused a massive Co2 ejection and was the cause of the last great extinction.

Continued.............

Now we are currently in what should be a cooling phase - hence all the predictions of a cooling phase from the 70's, so our planet should be heading into another ice age - HOWEVER due to the massive ejection of Co2 - we are now heading into global warming - that is why it is man made global warming as distinct from teh frequent pattern of natural global warming we so frequently see in our historical record.

Cheers,

Personally, I've been on the fence about the whole Climate change topic for a while. I had finally decided that, honestly, the changes were most probably caused by the sun, for the most part. Clearly we pump a lot of pollution up there, but it doesn't seem to be making as much of an impact as is being reported.

Then again, I kind of changed my tune after the whole BP fiasco... Just how much extra C02 and Methane was actually released as a result of THAT? And what will the reprecussions be, environmentally?

factories on Mars?

something smoking there

Originally posted by digby888
here is a thing i have been wondering about when did the people of this earth go to the other planets and set up big smoke bellowing factorys to start the global warming on them like mars

news.nationalgeographic.com...

and here is more

Global Warming on Mars, Pluto, Triton and Jupiter

seoblackhat.com...

so we must have some big ass factorys on these planets or could it be it is the sun that is causing all this heat i hear you say naw how can a big ball of fire cause heat.

and all these great sciantists stil say dont be daft global warming is caused by carbon emisions and nothing else fits

Sun Blamed for Warming of Earth and Other Worlds

www.livescience.com...

well thats enough from me what does every one else think

and before anyone tells me i know i cant spell

[edit on 8-8-2010 by digby888]

[edit on 8-8-2010 by digby888]

[edit on 8-8-2010 by digby888]

Digby888, scientists who have been studying climate change for years cannot agree as to the cause. One thing if for sure, the NWO Cap & Trade scam is NOT going to heal the planet or anything else. It's just a scheme to redistribute wealth into their (Global Elites) pockets.

SeaWind

Here is a few youtubes, and my point is that there are many in the field of science that say Co2 aint the cuase of global warming.

What makes me believe that, is the simple fact that those people do not get fundings on the same scale as the global Green agenda pushers get if they get any funds at all, and lets face it, without humans to blame on warming, the Govts is going to lose trillions of dollars in taxes world wide.

Here is Svensmark about to speak at Cop15 about his theory about external forces being responcable for the warming, and what happends ? he gets an Heart attack, he have an pacemaker....Hmmmmmm

How fortunate for the Co2 group , hu ? !

And here is Svensmark's ideas...

Hopefully the extra particles of ash and pumice from the Mt Eyja eruption will cool down our atmosphere.

Our planet cools down when there are more particles in our atmosphere to deflect away light and heat.

Its funny how something so deadly can also protect us.

Now, I stand strongly against polluting factories and all but let's be realistic, This planet has been here for 2.5 billion years that's 2,500,000,000 years... and recorded history of Earth Temperatures is some 200 years back?
en.wikipedia.org...

I believe that the Sun heats up and cools off. So we are all screwed with hot summers for the next few years (hopefully less) and perhaps cold winters (more water gets turned in to clouds from the heat) so what? in 10 years they will be saying it's Global Cooling... Run for the HILLS!!!

The truth is that powerful bastards are using this to con millions of people out of more expensive products because factories have to pay a TAX because the Sun is heating up??
WTF is this??
Global warming = SCAM!

It baffles me when people say that man made global warming can not be scientifically proven. In part, it is true, but only because we do not have a few Earths and a few hundred years to experiment on to prove what effect changing CO2 concentrations has. In essence, we are running a massive experiment on planet Earth, with almost 7 billion human inhabitants. I don't know about you, but I don't want to bet the future of humanity, and this plant on the naive, improbable hope that global warming is not man made, which would incidentally be against practically everything we know about the climate. Simply hating people like Al Gore, and hating carbon taxes, does not change any of the scientific evidence.

Now, I stand strongly against polluting factories and all but let's be realistic, This planet has been here for 2.5 billion years that's 2,500,000,000 years... and recorded history of Earth Temperatures is some 200 years back?

There's a big difference between weather and climate. We don't have weather records going back a few hundred years, but we can create climate records going back hundreds if not thousands of years from the environment.

The truth is that powerful bastards are using this to con millions of people out of more expensive products because factories have to pay a TAX because the Sun is heating up??
WTF is this??

Explain year 2000 to present.

Here is Svensmark about to speak at Cop15 about his theory about external forces being responcable for the warming, and what happends ? he gets an Heart attack, he have an pacemaker....Hmmmmmm

Right. The climate change believers did it. Better yet, Al Gore did it.

[edit on 9/8/2010 by C0bzz]

The fact is that a lot of ATS members attach to bogus conspiracy theories because they have issues of their own, and feel the need to project their insecurities onto various sources, like government, and big-business, and the elite.

TBH, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that people who believe "conspiracy theories" believe them because they have personal insecurities and issues. Google "confirmation bias" and you'll understand that absolutely nothing in the way of evidence will ever prove anything to those whose mind is made up through inductive reasoning... "NASA, NOAA, CCSP, the IPCC and all of these reputable institutions (that are reliant on government funding) wouldn't lie therefore global warming by humans must be true".

People who believe in AGW I think are just insufficiently educated to realise when they're being emotionally manipulated. When they photoshop polar bears desperately clinging to pieces of ice and tell us if we don't change our ways and pay money an unprecedented ecological disaster will ensue that will wipe out species en masse, etc - these things should tell anyone with a modicum of common sense that they're being mentally bullied and manipulated.

Originally posted by unityemissionsNot only is your graph telling, but the fact that you have so little stars on this post is as well.

There are a number of graphs I've seen that contradict the one C0bzz posted that show the correlation between TSI and temperature is still relatively good, like Soon's: scienceandpublicpolicy.org... I did stumble upon something very interesting a few days ago from HADCrut3 and NASA's GISS data showing that the rise in temperature from 1900-1940 was just as steep as the rise between 1980-2010 and the vast bulk of human CO2 emissions occurred after 1940 when temperature dropped precipitously. I guess it begs the question, what caused the warming between 1900-1940 and why did temperature drop from 1940-1970 when humans started to burn hydrocarbons in vast quantities?

www.woodfortrees.org...:1905/to:1942/trend/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1980/to:2010/trend
- HADCrut3:

data.giss.nasa.gov... - GISS

[edit on 9-8-2010 by Nathan-D]

The whole GW debate represents a wonderful analogy for what is wrong with our science. Not only do you get to see an example of humans attributing a "silver bullet" mentality towards problem solving (whereby causation is attributed to only 1 factor, which is a major logical mistake), but you also get to see the ignoring of inconvenient data.

Pro Global Warming = ignoring data like the rising temperatures on every other system body so that man can continue to be blamed.

Anti-Global Wamring = ignores the impact of man on the environment

The worst part is, it isn't the CO2 that is going to kill me first. It is likely the Corexit or Mercury in the fish that will do it. But no one worries about that, i guess. There isn't a chart (lacking number labels) for it.