Calling all Debunkers, and anyone who thinks Holocaust Denial is offensive, debunk this!

How about a quote from Prufer from 1946 interrogation. Quoted directly from Mattagno's original article on Auschwitz crematoria which you probably did not read since you seem to want to use Zimmerman's response for "facts".

During the interrogation on March 5, 1946, K. Prüfer explained why the cremation lasted so long in the Birkenau crematoria:[149]

"In civil crematoria, pre-heated air is blown in with the help of special bellows, due to which the corpse burns faster and without smoke. The construction of the crematoria for the concentration camps is different; it was not possible to pre-heat the air, as a result of which the corpse burned slower and with developing smoke. In order to reduce the smoke and the smell of a burning corpse, a fan is used.

Question: How many corpses would be cremated per hour in a crematorium in Auschwitz?

Answer: In a crematorium that had five ovens and fifteen muffles, one cremated fifteen corpses in an hour."

The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau
I think that refutes your claim of the NAZIs being able to cremate more bodies than a small scale/civil crematoria.

Furthermore, I think your comprehension is starting to mirror Zimmerman's as the reason the quote you used was used by Mattogno was to point out that it says the opposite of what Zimmerman was trying to say with it and validates Mattogno's thesis as he pointed out in"Risposta".

[edit on 13-8-2010 by PplVSNWO]

Originally posted by ken10


Why not just do away with the term "holocaust" and remember all the innocents that died equally. ?

For the 106th time in this thread:

You show me a group that was systematically identifyed by using the census and then wholely deported on no other grounds that their parents were deemed to be of a certain faith (or, has the Nazis would maintain, of a certain race) and then selected for collective extermination by the Nazis, and I'll conceed that everything that happened to the Jews under the Nazis was the same thing that happened to all other.

Why is it so hard to point to another group? Maybe because there wasn't any?

Your confusing the argument for singularity of the position of the Jews under Nazism with the argument that the Jews were the only ones who suffered.

Can you give me an example of one serious historian (not some lunatic zionist fringe group) that claim that the Jews were the only ones to suffer under the Nazis? Please do.

Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
And this would be the nail in the coffin of the argument; I knew someone would fall for it.

Prüfer could only be talking about the 6-muffled, old crematoria of Birkenau.

Now think about that. You say " This quote shows that Prüfer said it was impossible to dispose of all of the bodies with this machinery "

YET you fail to mention that the capacity of the Crematoria was SIGNIFICANTLY EXPANDED (6 muffle crematoria vs. 46 muffle crematoria) after the period Prüfer was referring to in this interview.

[edit on 13-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

How is this the "nail in the coffin"? The orginal thesis say this, Mattagno went into detail on the changes in machinery and records of their opperation. No where does he limit his paper to a 6 muffle oven. The Prufer interview made a point about cremation times and bodies per muffle. The same physics still applies to 46 muffles, you can now cremate 46 bodies per hour instead of 6 assuming all ovens are working and working optimally.

Edit: read section "7.4 The Oven Capacity for Normal Cremations at Auschwitz-Birkenau" where Mattagno acutally shows there having been 52 baffles total. I'm ot sure if you were intentionally being misleading here or not, but everyone can see it's there and was never "fail to mention".

[edit on 13-8-2010 by PplVSNWO]

reply to post by PplVSNWO


Did Mattogno invoke the Prüfer interview as proof or at least evidence to the limitations of the crematoria capacity or not? Simple question.

Seems to me he did. And still does (even while privatly admitting that it's not warranted....)

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


I think its clear for all to see, You are not interested in making a valid argument.

More i think you are using a war of attrition with your words....Take the thread around in circles without winning any arguments, in the hope that others will get bored and leave the thread. What was that quote "By way of deceit......"

If you're gonna argue and produce evidence about the increase in "Muffles" then you must also give the evidence for the piles of Coke needed to run those "Muffles".........No

Similarly, if you're gonna spout that a firm visiting the "gas chambers" 30 or 40 times.....Where is the proof with the words "repairing Gas Chambers" or similar within any correspondents between the camp and the company.

David Irving has offered £1000 for any proof.......So where is it !

You haven't answered regarding the temperature for the Gaseous state of Zyklon b, and how it would be possible for people to sit in a shed for 1 hour at 15 degrees knowing that it is at 25.7 degrees this substance becomes gaseous ?

You do not concede points that you cannot answer....You just ignore them or shrug them off with mere opinion or statements that are only as good as "Hearsay"......And as i said, taking the thread in circles.

I have read through all of your posts, but i don't recall a single thing i could say was proof positive of anything.

Originally posted by ken10
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

 

I think its clear for all to see, You are not interested in making a valid argument.

Let's let the reader be the judge of that.

More i think you are using a war of attrition with your words....Take the thread around in circles without winning any arguments, in the hope that others will get bored and leave the thread. What was that quote "By way of deceit......"

So the simple fact that I write substantial posts - not just short, snippy, supposed-to-be-witty half-truths is proof that I don't want to debate?

I have a different narrative.

You have repeatedly stated in this thread that what happened to the Jews under National Socialism was something that happened to many other groups. I provided you with the means to validate that statement: I asked you to show me one other such group.

Since you couldn't think of one you decided to give up and go an an ad-hom rampage.

If you're gonna argue and produce evidence about the increase in "Muffles" then you must also give the evidence for the piles of Coke needed to run those "Muffles".........No

Uhm.. We haven't even got there yet. I have yet to make any argument as to the fuel requirements.

If you were following the thread - meaning: reading the posts - then you would see that I have not yet gotten to the bottom of PeopleVSNWO's link where the fuel issue is addressed.

Sorry for not being a super-human that has full knowledge of every denier claim as well as every single fact of the Concentration Camps. I'm really sorry. I hope someone else can live up to your standards - and I hope you can live with yourself for failing that test even more blatantly and obviously than I am right now.

Similarly, if you're gonna spout that a firm visiting the "gas chambers" 30 or 40 times.....Where is the proof with the words "repairing Gas Chambers" or similar within any correspondents between the camp and the company.

www.topfundsoehne.de...

Sorry for not providing a source for every single claim made in this thread.

I find this accusation, coming from you to be rather laughable. But it's fair. I'll act the same way towards your claims from now on too ...

David Irving has offered £1000 for any proof.......So where is it !

I offer $ 100 for anyone to prove that it didn't happen. So where is it?

Funny you should mention Irving though. Is it your contention that he is still in the denial camp?

I've heard differently....

www.taz.de.../02/21/a0162

You haven't answered regarding the temperature for the Gaseous state of Zyklon b, and how it would be possible for people to sit in a shed for 1 hour at 15 degrees knowing that it is at 25.7 degrees this substance becomes gaseous ?

Still reading Mattogno; when I will get to the real science behind the stuff - not the quote mined pseudo-claims - I'll be glad to answer.

You do not concede points that you cannot answer....You just ignore them or shrug them off with mere opinion or statements that are only as good as "Hearsay"......And as i said, taking the thread in circles.

Ditto.

I have read through all of your posts, but i don't recall a single thing i could say was proof positive of anything.

Brush up on your reading skills. This thread is not about proving the Holocaust. This thread is about claims made against the Holocaust. All I am doing is answering those. I do neither have the intention, nor the patience, nor the willingness to prove that it happened. All I'm here to do is to take up claims that it didn't happen, as this is what this thread promises to deliver...





[edit on 13-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 13-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

You have repeatedly stated in this thread that what happened to the Jews under National Socialism was something that happened to many other groups. I provided you with the means to validate that statement: I asked you to show me one other such group. Since you couldn't think of one you decided to give up and go an an ad-hom rampage.

I'm not understanding your question

Do Gypsies and jehovah witnesses not meet that criteria ?

Originally posted by ken10
reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

 

You have repeatedly stated in this thread that what happened to the Jews under National Socialism was something that happened to many other groups. I provided you with the means to validate that statement: I asked you to show me one other such group. Since you couldn't think of one you decided to give up and go an an ad-hom rampage.

I'm not understanding your question

Do Gypsies and jehovah witnesses not meet that criteria ?

Were the Gypsies and Jehovah Witnesses systematically identifyed by the census and then deported wholesale?

What was the qualification for being a gypsie or a Jehova's witness? Did the Germans author a law that said anyone born to a gypsie or Jehova's witness parents was that too? (Well, for the Gypsies that counts, ok)

What was the role of the gypsies and the Jehova's in Nazi ideology?`Was there any promiment National Socialist that claimed that all of Germany's problem were due solely to the existence of the Gypsies and the Jehova's witnesses? Was there anyone of those that proposed that for that sole reason they needed to be destroyed?
How many books were published under National Socialism that claimed that there was an international conspiracy by gypsies and Jehova's witnesses to keep germany down and that therefore they must be all killed?

And how did the persecution go on? Did the Germans seek out any and all Jehovas witnesses in the occupied territories? What happened to Jehova's witnesses in the camps?`Where they always part of the group that was selected or were they primarily ordered to forced labor?

These are not reasons for saying "Only the Jews suffered". But the Jews played a very prominent, singular role in the thinking of the Nazis.

I know you believe that I am of the opinion that it makes a great difference. But it doesn't really. Wrong is wrong. Genocide is genocide. I have no exclusivist view of what happened to the Jews; similiar things happened to other groups throughout history.

But this doesn't keep me from seeing how they Jews played a special role in the thinking and the politic and military actions of the Nazis. That's all I'm saying. You're taking my position as something more radical than it is.

Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
reply to post by PplVSNWO

 

Did Mattogno invoke the Prüfer interview as proof or at least evidence to the limitations of the crematoria capacity or not? Simple question.

Seems to me he did. And still does (even while privatly admitting that it's not warranted....)

I believe the only only reason the interview was used, was to backup the capabilities of the ovens, ie one body per muffle.

It also seems to back up the conclusion that the Auschwitz crematoria would be smoking and not burn clean like the smaller scale forced air models would.

reply to post by ken10


I watched the video.

The chemical used is not Zyklon B

The "doctor" is wearing a gas mask when she scatters it in the hut. (If its harmless - why?)

The chemical is scattered in a fully ventilated room.

No explanation is offered as to whether the room is airtight or not.

There is no time reference between the chemical being scattered and the men entering the hut.

The "sealed" door is not closed correctly. The bottom door lock is never touched.

You see the men going into the hut. You do not see the chemical in there at the same time. At no point after the men walk into the hut is the chemical shown. It is not shown with the men in the hut at the same time.

Anyone with a digital clock can set it to read an hour later in a matter of seconds.

No doctor worth their hippocratic oath is going to allow such an experiment to happen when there is risk of death.

In short - the video is a propagandic hoax.

It is so full of holes that its laughable, and if that is being presented as supposed "evidence" that the gassings were a hoax then I can sell you Buckingham Palace, one brick at a time, at a knock down price of £7.50 for the whole lot.

Pathetic.



[edit on 13/8/10 by neformore]

reply to post by neformore


Of course i'm not going to defend a Youtube vid by refuting anything.

However the Science of Zyklon b afaik is sound, At 15 degrees it is thought to be safe as it turns gaseous at 25.7 degrees (by all accounts)and that is when it is deadly.

So from a purely technical aspect that video could have had a bearing in reality.
Although i would freely admit i would not volunteer to test that.

Originally posted by PplVSNWO

I believe the only only reason the interview was used, was to backup the capabilities of the ovens, ie one body per muffle.

And you contend that that is definitely what Prüfer is stating? That only one body per muffle was POSSIBLE - not advisable, not practical, but possible?

I find this part very important. Because I simply do not see how Prüfer's testimony does in any way establish that.

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


Does it matter what is possible? To me, what actually did happen is what matters.
What difference does it make if they put two in at a time? It would still take the same time to perform the cremation and use about the same coke as it would to burn them one at time, and this is one of the conclusions of Mattogno's thesis.

Was it possible to cram more than one body per baffle? Yes. Could you dispose of bodies any more efficient that way? I think the thesis pretty much demolishes that question.

Are you just grasping at straws now? Or are these serious questions/attempts at rebuttal?

And it isn't Prufer's testimony(or testimony alone) that establishes that. It's most of Mattogno's thesis that establishes that. Prufer's statement is just an example that back up the conclusion Mattogno had already arrived at through research.

[edit on 13-8-2010 by PplVSNWO]

www.air-photo.com...

www.air-photo.com...

www.coffinman.co.uk...

There were two documents on the net that were from the International Red Cross and the other was from the German Government on the actual count of fatalities in the camps. I don't know how to post them as I saved copies. But the actual count is not even 1 million.

The count from the German Government, on Dec. 31 1983 was, 373,468 and the count from the International Red cross on Dec. 31 1978 was 271,501.

Now these are, or are made to look like, actual documents from these places. Are they? I am not sure. But I do know for a fact, there was NEVER 6 million Jews living in all of Europe during and before WW2. How many Jews live in America today? How small was the territory of Germany back then? Or look at the size of the continent of Europe as compared to the size of America. Please people, use your heads.

[edit on 13-8-2010 by daddio]

Originally posted by daddio

www.air-photo.com...

www.air-photo.com...

www.coffinman.co.uk...

There were two documents on the net that were from the International Red Cross and the other was from the German Government on the actual count of fatalities in the camps. I don't know how to post them as I saved copies. But the actual count is not even 1 million.

The count from the German Government, on Dec. 31 1983 was, 373,468 and the count from the International Red cross on Dec. 31 1978 was 271,501.

I don't think you quite understand what those numbers mean. How in earth did you get the impression that that lists names all victims of the Holocaust?

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...

Those familiar with the argumentational strategy of many Holocaust Deniers may have come across a frequent claim that the ITS Arolsen and ICRC has only documented the deaths of between 300 to 400,000 victims in the German concentration camps. Ever wonder where this figure came from? Biedermann explained how:

Biedermann confirmed that as of December 31, 1983, the total number of deaths registered with the Special Registry Office and various other registry offices was 373,468. (11-2515) This figure represented death certificates issued pursuant to received applications and was based, with respect to the Special Registry Office, on camp records kept by the Nazis during the war. (11-2516, 2517)
Biedermann agreed that at an international conference held by the International Committee of the Camps in Vienna in 1977, the then director of the ITS, Albert de Cocatrix, gave a speech which indicated that as of December 31, 1976 a total of 357,190 names of persons who died in concentration camps had been registered at the Special Registry Office. Biedermann confirmed that these numbers actually came from the ITS. (12-2640 to 2646) He pointed out, however, that these figures resulted from applications. If an entire family had died, there was no one to make an application for a death certificate. Secondly, the ITS had complete documentation for only two of the twenty-two concentration camps. For the remainder, it had either partial or no documentation. Therefore, if an application was made for a person who had allegedly died in one of these camps, the ITS would not have the records to justify a request to the Special Registry Office for a death certificate. (12-2647)


In case there are any dimwits out there, let's just repeat those bolded parts one more time:

He pointed out, however, that these figures resulted from applications. If an entire family had died, there was no one to make an application for a death certificate.

Now these are, or are made to look like, actual documents from these places. Are they? I am not sure.

Yes, it does seem that you're not aware of what these documents are. Maybe you should look into how the list was composed (see quote above)

But I do know for a fact, there was NEVER 6 million Jews living in all of Europe during and before WW2. How many Jews live in America today? How small was the territory of Germany back then? Or look at the size of the continent of Europe as compared to the size of America. Please people, use your heads.

It depends on what "Europe" means. Maybe you should take a look at wartime maps? The Nazis did reach the Volga, after all.

www.ushmm.org...

In 1933, approximately 9.5 million Jews lived in Europe, comprising 1.7% of the total European population. This number represented more than 60 percent of the world's Jewish population at that time, estimated at 15.3 million.

I think it will be rather hard to prove that the number of European Jewry pre 1933 was not in the millions. But good luck with that.

[edit on 13-8-2010 by daddio]

I'd rather have a friend who's grandmother still has her tatto debunk it.

Originally posted by filosophia
www.holocaustdenialvideos.com...

Debunk any of these videos, or any points made by these videos. I would really like it if someone was able to do that.

If you need some direction, start with the David Cole video titled "Auschwitz" (below the first video on the homepage).

Some points to draw from the videos that I have never heard debunked before are as follows:

1. Zyklon-B is a disinfectant, which is why there are purple Zyklon-B streaks in the disenfectant room and not the gas chamber.

2. As the David Cole video points out, the gas chamber was a reconstruction, and the famous holes on the top of the roof were added by the museum holders.

3. Prisoners head's were shaved in order to fight off typhus. Their clothes were removed for a similar reason, having nothing to do with Nazis stockpiling goods.

4. The three concentration camps, Auschwitz, Berkanau, and Treblinka, comprise only 20 minutes of the Nuremberg trial, many of those minutes included the defense failing to ask questions or put in comments on behalf of the defendants.

5. Some of the German prisoners on trial at Nuremberg gave such outlandish stories that they must have been pleading guilty and working within the Holocaust story in order to avoid execution.

So, if anyone is interested, please watch some or all of the videos, and give me a hard core debunking of this. Give me your best shot.

reply to post by pacific_waters


Does your friends grandmother have an account of her experience on record? Can you list give her name or a link to it?
Thanks.

Why is there this continual attempt to alter history? Most of the victims of the camps died from firing squads, disease and starvation. The germans destroyed the chambers in 1944. Now you revisionists want to make that into a grand conspiracy. Of course the present chamber is a reconstruction and that is why there are no stains in the chamber. If you had been there you would deny the holocaust. Cole has an agenda for one reason or another. The silliest point you make is #5. You make a huge leap of logic to arrive at a conclusion that supports your theory. Ever thought they may have been telling the truth? Or can't yu get your brain around the fact that there major atrocities committed by ordinary germans.

Originally posted by filosophia
www.holocaustdenialvideos.com...

Debunk any of these videos, or any points made by these videos. I would really like it if someone was able to do that.

If you need some direction, start with the David Cole video titled "Auschwitz" (below the first video on the homepage).

Some points to draw from the videos that I have never heard debunked before are as follows:

1. Zyklon-B is a disinfectant, which is why there are purple Zyklon-B streaks in the disenfectant room and not the gas chamber.

2. As the David Cole video points out, the gas chamber was a reconstruction, and the famous holes on the top of the roof were added by the museum holders.

3. Prisoners head's were shaved in order to fight off typhus. Their clothes were removed for a similar reason, having nothing to do with Nazis stockpiling goods.

4. The three concentration camps, Auschwitz, Berkanau, and Treblinka, comprise only 20 minutes of the Nuremberg trial, many of those minutes included the defense failing to ask questions or put in comments on behalf of the defendants.

5. Some of the German prisoners on trial at Nuremberg gave such outlandish stories that they must have been pleading guilty and working within the Holocaust story in order to avoid execution.

So, if anyone is interested, please watch some or all of the videos, and give me a hard core debunking of this. Give me your best shot.

I have skimmed over this thread and all you achieved is getting someone ike me angry, Parts of my family DIED with what happened at Belsan,.

I could not give a flying monkeys about the holocaust anymore. I do give a crap about my daughters who are victims of rockets from gaza... We are in england again now becuse the knesset is ruled by madmen

But push comes to shove i will ram a knife down your throat if you think you are going to take my land,

That counts double for England,..


Keep digging islam



[edit on 13-8-2010 by Yissachar1]

reply to post by Yissachar1


Um, sorry but Israelis took the land from the Palestinians and continue to do so. Who do you think is going to take your land anyway? And how many Israelis are killed from rockets fire from Gaza? What does any of this have to do with the subject of this thread? What does Islam have to do with this thread? You sound like a Zionist troll and can take your bs else where, unless you have something to contribute to this thread.