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Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
Well, help me out here. We were talking about Fürlers testimony. Does Mattogno not use his testimony to establish that putting more than one bodies in the oven would break it?
Let us now consider the "enormous strain" on the crematoria which damaged the "brick lining on the ovens." Quantitatively speaking, what does this "enormous strain" signify?
Let us make a quick calculation for the two most important crematoria respecting the economics of "extermination." Krema II went into operation on 15 March, Krema III on 25 June. 16
There is a six-month period between March and September 1943 coinciding with the visit to Auschwitz of Prüfer on 10 September 17. During this period Krema II was closed down for 3 months for repairs (Krema IV was already out of operation from the end of June).18
For this reason Kremas II and III each functioned for about 45 days. Since, according to the admission of Zimmerman, the duration of a cremation of one cadaver in one muffle was one hour, these crematoria could each have theoretically cremated, working hypothetically for 24 hours a day, 360 (=24 × 15) cadavers per day, so in 45 days 16,200 (=45 × 360) cadavers each, that is, 1,080 (=16,200 : 15) per muffle.
Therefore Zimmerman admits that the refractive masonry of the crematoria was damaged after 1,080 theoretical cremations
I never claimed that was the whole point. I'm trying to discuss the details here, something you seem very resolute not to do.
In reality Kurt Prüfer stated the very opposite of what Zimmerman attributed to him by means of a despicable manipulation.
On page 200 of the cited work, this is how Fleming summarizes part of the interrogation which K.Prüfer underwent on 5 March 1946:
"Normal crematoria 8 work with prewarmed air 9 so that the corpse burns quickly and without smoke. As the crematoria in the concentration camps were constructed differently, this procedure could not be used.10 The corpses burned more slowly and created more smoke, necessitating ventilation.
Question: How many corpses were incinerated in Auschwitz per hour?
Answer: In a crematorium with five furnaces and fifteen muffles, fifteen corpses were burned." [my emphasis]
During the interrogation of 19 March, K.Prüfer declared:
"I spoke about the enormous strain on the overused furnaces. I told Chief Engineer Sander: I am worried whether the furnaces can stand the excessive usage. In my presence two cadavers were pushed into one muffle instead of one cadaver. The furnaces could not stand the strain." 11 [my italics]
What other possible evidence is there besides eyewitness testimony when it comes to the methods implemented to dispose of the bodies? It seems to me that pertaining to the actual process there is no other possible evidence.
Ah. So there were cremations? At least something. I'll adress the fuel question later. It's dissapointing that you're not willing to lay it out for me. It would save so much time.
How can the evidence for "some open pit burning" be discriminated against evidence for "open pit burning en masse"?
This claim seems rather disingenious to me. What exactly is the testimony you accept as evidence for open pit burning? Am I to extrapolate that some testimony is true, some is false?
It's not as if they found some ashes, just not much of it. Somehow you seem to contradict yourself. I have presented the evidence for open-pit-burning. Only by selective discounting a part of that evidence can you speak of "only some". I would not know what the basis is for that discounting.
Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
I'm not concerned with how efficient the process was. It's clear that your link establishes that it was absolutely not efficient nor practical to dispose of the bodies that way.
No historian claims it was efficient or practical. It was a Notmassnahme, a special measure whenever the Crematoria where overwhelmed. You refute the idea by quoting a technical argument saying that bodies would not be fully reduced by such low-intensity fires. Which historian has ever claimed that they would be fully reduced?
Again, where is the evidence for these mass graves of partially cremated bodies? You do realize that it would take around at least 28 minutes to even evaporate the water from a body in a coke fired oven at optimum.
It's rather naive to think that the SS burned some people in open pits, then saw the results and went...
"Well, Hans - look this doesn't do the job. There's still remains of the bodies left... Let's not use this method anymore".
Considering how things were at the camp at that time burning the corpses to indistuinguishable blobs would have been absolutely sufficient for the SS. Their goal, after all, was not to have a nice pile of ashes that they could put in an urn and then send to the family.
And technically? Technically such an hypothesis is senseless: according to engineer Kessler's experiments on cremation. Even the phase during which water evaporated from the cadaver required on average 28 minutes in an optimum coke-operated oven!
That's why I have consistently asked you to present individual claims. It's so much easier. But you don't seem to be interested in that - and I can understand you, since that is very time intensive. But if all you do is make the argumentum ad linkum, *snicker", I will reply with the same in order to give the interested reader both sides of the debate. ( I will point out again that I would prefer taking up individual claims since this would enable said reader to form an opinion without leaving the thread.
An honest and dedicated effort will always be appreciated on and by ATS. jealous? or just paranoid?
Originally posted by KIZZZY
Jews did not want to go to Palestine. Why would they give up their wealth to go live in squalor of Palestine? They would not! Most Jews felt that God does not permit them to in the Bible, or the Talmud, many remained in Europe, especially Germany.
Originally posted by WolfofWar
Originally posted by KIZZZY
Jews did not want to go to Palestine. Why would they give up their wealth to go live in squalor of Palestine? They would not! Most Jews felt that God does not permit them to in the Bible, or the Talmud, many remained in Europe, especially Germany.
The entire point of Zionism was a return to the Holy land. Since before 1935 there were already Jews immigrating from Russia and other sectors of Europe to Palestine, tending the lands as farmers and shepherds, much to the disdain of the Palestinians. Yes, most jews would probably not give up their jobs to go make a new Zion, but the zionists would, and they did, pre WWII.
Originally posted by mazzroth
Sorry about your relatives experiences during the war, how ever could you explain to me why zee Germans would use Zyklon B ( a known insecticide ) to gas Jews instead of hooking up a trucks exhaust and using carbon monoxide ?
Hydrogen cyanide (with the historical common name of Prussic acid) is a chemical compound with chemical formula HCN. Hydrogen cyanide is a colorless, extremely poisonous liquid that boils slightly above room temperature at 26 °C (79 °F).
A hydrogen cyanide concentration of 300 mg/m3 in air will kill a human within about 10 minutes. It is estimated that hydrogen cyanide at a concentration of 3500 ppm (about 3200 mg/m3) will kill a human in about 1 minute. The toxicity is caused by the cyanide ion, which halts cellular respiration by inhibiting an enzyme in mitochondria called cytochrome c oxidase.
Hydrogen cyanide is commonly listed amongst chemical warfare agents that cause general poisoning and skin blisters.[24] As a substance listed under Schedule 3 of the Chemical Weapons Convention as a potential weapon which has large-scale industrial uses, manufacturing plants in signatory countries which produce more than 30 tonnes per year must be declared to, and can be inspected by, the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons.
Originally posted by mazzroth
reply to post by s7ryk3r
Sorry about your relatives experiences during the war, how ever could you explain to me why zee Germans would use Zyklon B ( a known insecticide ) to gas Jews instead of hooking up a trucks exhaust and using carbon monoxide ?
Whoever claims that Zyklon B is "just a disenfectant, totally not dangerous" should walk the walk and put himself into a sealed room with a bucket full. Whoever says so and doesn't do that - well, it's obvious to me, to say the least.
I was telling Sander that I attended testing of ovens in crematorium in concentration camp Auschwitz, that I came to conclusion that crematoriums could not cope with such a number of corpses, which were there to be burned, because the ovens of the crematoriums are of low capacity. At that, gave an example to Sander, that when I were in Auschwitz, in my presence two-three corpses were being pushed into crematoria muffles instead of one, and even then crematorium's ovens did not cope with that load, because there were too many corpses to burn. At the same time I said to Sander that the corpses seen by me were killed in gas chambers earlier.
It would seem, since the NAZI's kept such great records of everything, you could refer to original(not 2nd and 3rd hand like Zimmerman does often) documentation, and Mattogno does this in his original and response papers.
Yes, and there is tons documentation for causes of death and for cremations. There does some dates that are missing from the records(and Zimmerman would blame the NAZI s that had little time to search through records to destroy specific dates while the camps where being liberated, while Mattogno would blame the Soviets that did have plenty of time to pick and choose which records to destroy.)
Isolated cases of small numbers of open air cremations is a far cry from the claimed mass open air cremations. Mattogno has done am experiment and another paper on the subject that I posted earlier that refutes "eyewitness" testimony and claims from Zimmerman on the open air cremations.
The "testimony" that I accept for evidence of open air cremations are actual documents about real open air cremations that took place and where discussed by Mattogno if I recall correctly.
I don't believe I did contradict myself. There were probably isolated open air cremations, but there is no evidence for the large numbers claimed.
Originally posted by ken10
Not sure if you've seen this vid ?
Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
Originally posted by PplVSNWO
Can we please stop discussing quote-mined quotes? that's why I provided to full passage. I want to deal with the reality, not with the toasted reality of Mattogno.
Prüfer said:
I was telling Sander that I attended testing of ovens in crematorium in concentration camp Auschwitz, that I came to conclusion that crematoriums could not cope with such a number of corpses, which were there to be burned, because the ovens of the crematoriums are of low capacity. At that, gave an example to Sander, that when I were in Auschwitz, in my presence two-three corpses were being pushed into crematoria muffles instead of one, and even then crematorium's ovens did not cope with that load, because there were too many corpses to burn. At the same time I said to Sander that the corpses seen by me were killed in gas chambers earlier.
Originally posted by orangutang
reply to post by King Loki
re winston churchill, you are of course correct. also in stalins writings and also in eisenhauers which together total several thousand pages there is no reference to jews being gassed. unfortunately in this world, not many have even half a brain.
Originally posted by PplVSNWO
Your full quote does not support your case any bettery than the "quote mined" quote. Notice "the ovens of the crematoriums are of low capacity" and "there were too many corpses to burn"
If the ovens couldn't handle as many bodies as there were, how did they handle the numbers Zimmerman claims? Is this even a direct quote to begin with? It looks like, "I heard this guy say this in my presence" How did he know the "corpses seen by me were killed in gas chambers earlier"?
holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...
So what was actually said is that there were too many bodies in the camp for furnaces to effectively cope with (those were 6 muffles of the old crematorium - Birkenau crematoria with 46 muffles had not been built yet), not that several bodies couldn't have been burned at the same time. This is also confirmed by testimony of Sander, taken on March 13, 1946:
Pruefer then gave me an example that in his presence two-three corpses were being put into each muffle, and even then they did not cope with the load, because there were too many corpses for incineration in the concentration camp. (Emphasis mine - SR)