PLZ READ OP FIRST! The Atheist Delusion

reply to post by woodwardjnr


This thread is more about the flaws in Atheism and also the fallacious nature that some of the most popular arguments for and against it.

While belief can trump reason and logic it only does this through ignorance and contumacy .

reply to post by ChickenPie


THat wouldn't prove anything except that god did not create the universe. It has no bearing on the concept of existence....

LIke I said you can only strip a deity or being of its attributes logically, you cannot prove the fact of existence however. Either viewpoint is equal in regards to that matter.

reply to post by IamBoon

Is Atheism a viewpoint?
THen it is belief.

What does an atheist believe? It is not (necessarily) that god(s) does not exist and a lack of belief cannot be stated as a belief.

I provided the literal meaning of atheism and it is clearly not a belief in anything. There is a belief involved in atheism but only in arriving at atheism; that is an atheist must at least believe that there is no reason to believe in god. However that does not make atheism itself a belief.

Is there any concrete evidence for the basis of Atheism? Can it prove a deity cannot just "exist"?

If it cannot then it is a belief.

But that is not what many atheists assert. For myself I do not claim that a deity cannot or does not exist I just don’t believe that any does; I remain open to the possibility.

Instead of just stating the argument I literally destroyed in the OP , try disputing your irrational belief that Atheism is not a belief. I covered my bases and unless you find flaw within the argument itself .

But you didn’t destroy anything. All you did was define the word belief as say atheism is that; you didn’t prove anything except that the belief that there is no god is illogical and that it is indeed a belief. You didn’t even touch on the definition of atheism as a lack of belief except to say, without evidence or logic, that it was erroneous.

How is the lack of belief in one thing itself a belief? What is being believed in that case?

Saying you assertion in something that cannot be proven or disproved by default constitutes belief.

What is my assertion?

reply to post by randyvs


GET REAL!!!

You are saying Boon says this, Boon says that.

GET REAL - Boon is not the messiah.

I am tired of these lies.

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

THat wouldn't prove anything except that god did not create the universe. It has no bearing on the concept of existence....

Such a discovery would mean that a God is unneeded. It'd be odd if God existed in such a reality in which the universe were eternal or the natural processes that created the universe were eternal, wouldn't you say?

Why still debating about atheism? What about moral? What about love? What about materialism and egoism? Who needs a God if we have "values".

They kill in the name of god, but never kill in the name of love. They kill in the name of materialism and power. But they don't kill empathy. So why polarize? Can we live in peace together? What the hell is your god (my god) believers problem? You are so fundamental - so we will never reach peace on earth. It's so sad!


[edit on 30-7-2010 by cushycrux]

Originally posted by -PLB-

Originally posted by IamBoon
So unless deductive logic , observational coherence,and solid empirical data absolutely rule out a possibility on a subject , any stance on the unproven subject is by definition a belief.

How about the stance "because of the lack of evidence there is no reason to believe its true, therefor I don't believe it to be true". I fail to see how not believing is a belief.

Let me rephrase your argument to show you how it can and is misunderstood to mean disbelief.

Joe D. Believer says to an ATheist regarding his views....
"How about the stance "because of the lack of evidence there is no reason to believe its true, therefor I don't believe it to be true". This could be said in FAVOR of the existence in a deity. There is no evidence for or against the basic assertion of "existence"

That is the nature of the topic and why people will argue about existence instead of the entities attributes , will , and practicality as a deity worthy of praise.

reply to post by ChickenPie


Cool, let me know.

reply to post by catwhoknows


Are you reading another thread and then posting in this one? I'm at a loss. Are you trippin?

[edit on 30-7-2010 by randyvs]

I do so love these theists vs atheists threads - their utter pointlessness will always draw a crowd, in the same way as if you placed a large, malformed statue in a public place with no explanation.

Having exhausted any possible rational means of proving the existence of god, the theists turn to the negative alternative.

If they can prove atheists wrong, then that must mean they are right .. right? ..?

Well, let me add context to my point of view - I am agnostic - so I have no clear favorite in this debate, holding that any form of belief is purely a subjective personal choice and is independent of reality as it exists external to any person.

What I do see though, is the intolerance brought into being by creating fixed beliefs - where I can listen to both sides and still have no desire, nor feel any requirement to be either persuaded or dissuaded - the believers in both camps engage their emotions vehemently deriding their opponents, and emphatically pronouncing their 'rightness'.

To play the devil - you are both of course wrong, and I see no role as referee, though I would offer my services as a gravedigger come the logical termination of this debate.

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by IamBoon

 

Is Atheism a viewpoint?
THen it is belief.

What does an atheist believe? It is not (necessarily) that god(s) does not exist and a lack of belief cannot be stated as a belief.

I provided the literal meaning of atheism and it is clearly not a belief in anything. There is a belief involved in atheism but only in arriving at atheism; that is an atheist must at least believe that there is no reason to believe in god. However that does not make atheism itself a belief.

Is there any concrete evidence for the basis of Atheism? Can it prove a deity cannot just "exist"?

If it cannot then it is a belief.

But that is not what many atheists assert. For myself I do not claim that a deity cannot or does not exist I just don’t believe that any does; I remain open to the possibility.

Instead of just stating the argument I literally destroyed in the OP , try disputing your irrational belief that Atheism is not a belief. I covered my bases and unless you find flaw within the argument itself .

But you didn’t destroy anything. All you did was define the word belief as say atheism is that; you didn’t prove anything except that the belief that there is no god is illogical and that it is indeed a belief. You didn’t even touch on the definition of atheism as a lack of belief except to say, without evidence or logic, that it was erroneous.

How is the lack of belief in one thing itself a belief? What is being believed in that case?

Saying you assertion in something that cannot be proven or disproved by default constitutes belief.

What is my assertion?

Lack of empirical evidence can only bring you so far as to say that the probability of God existing is slim, but you cannot know God does not exist from that alone. So, if you don't know God does not exist, then that means you believe He doesn't exist.

No applause needed.

reply to post by cushycrux

They kill in the name of god, but never kill in the name of love.

Yes they do, euthanasia, finding someone in bed with your partner and shooting them, taking revenge on someone who has hurt a loved one etc. It happens all the time.

Anyway that's not the topic.

Originally posted by cushycrux
Why still debating about atheism? What about moral? What about love? What about materialism and egoism? Who needs a God if we have "values".

They kill in the name of god, but never kill in the name of love. They kill in the name of materialism and power. But they don't kill empathy. So why polarize? Can we live in peace together? What the hell is your god (my god) believers problem? You are so fundamental - so we will never reach peace on earth. It's so sad!


[edit on 30-7-2010 by cushycrux]

Please... I don't think there's anything that humans have not killed for...

Maybe we should introduce some types of atheism:

"Positive explicit" atheists assert that it is false that any deities exist. "Negative explicit" atheists assert they do not believe in deities, but do not assert it is true that deities do not exist.

Wikipedia

I agree that "Positive explicit" atheism can be seen as a belief. But "Negative explicit" atheism can not.

reply to post by Mike_A


I cannot make it any simpler than this seeing as the original and subsequent posts were to complicated for you.

Most argument Atheists use can also be used by THeists. THis IS because of the subject. Watch.


THere is no empirical data proving god.
THere is no empirical data Disproving god.

Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s) existence.
Theism is a lack of belief in god(s) nonexistence.


See? Does that make Theism a non belief? NO. It is a flawed argument that Atheists use to make themselves seem superior. It is egotistical garbage.

Your "lack of belief" argument holds no water on the subject of existence. And admitting to there being a possibility of an object without 100% certainty is a belief also. ugh And I thought Christians were thick headed about certain dogmas.

Hey OP, I hope you do not mind.

I just thought of a hell of an analogy. Or at least I think it is.

So, some people in the comedic field have joked that like you, their is no empirical proof either way. So being smart, those that believe in God, hedge their bets. Since if there is no God and you die, no big deal. But if there is and you die, well you get my meaning.

So, either religious folk are smarter or they just know how to play the odds.

Now, this may not have been too funny, BUT, here is where the analogy comes in. I just got done reading ANOTHER AGW thread. Now one of the arguments on trying to stop the GW, they say the worst that happens it is not true, BUT what if it is true.

So in reality, Global Warming proponents are the exactly the same as Religeous folk!

I do not know why I thought I would bring this up, it just clicked in my head. Of course someone is going to say look at all THIS (bible) proof.

Nope, do not want to hear it, Global Warming proponents worship the purple spaghetti monster!

Well, I thought it was funny.

edit to fix several gramma erras

[edit on 7/30/2010 by endisnighe]

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by cushycrux

 

They kill in the name of god, but never kill in the name of love.

Yes they do, euthanasia, finding someone in bed with your partner and shooting them, taking revenge on someone who has hurt a loved one etc. It happens all the time.

Anyway that's not the topic.

That has nothing to do with love, sorry! This ist just envy, the wish to own someone, forget it.

And revenge has absolute nothing to do with love. It's more the opposition of it. "Hate".

I mean a war never started in name of love, but in the name of god - understand now?

[edit on 30-7-2010 by cushycrux]

reply to post by ChickenPie

Lack of empirical evidence can only bring you so far as to say that the probability of God existing is slim, but you cannot know God does not exist from that alone. So, if you don't know God does not exist, then that means you believe He doesn't exist.

Eh? If I don’t know something does not exist then I believe that it doesn’t exist? You’ve lost me.

So if I don’t know that aliens don’t exist then I believe that they don’t? That is neither true nor does it make sense.

Originally posted by -PLB-
Maybe we should introduce some types of atheism:

"Positive explicit" atheists assert that it is false that any deities exist. "Negative explicit" atheists assert they do not believe in deities, but do not assert it is true that deities do not exist.

Wikipedia

I agree that "Positive explicit" atheism can be seen as a belief. But "Negative explicit" atheism can not.

"Positive explicit" theists assert that it is false that any godlessness exists. "Negative explicit" theists assert they do not believe in godlessness , but do not assert it is true that godlessness do not exist."

Are "Negative explicit Theists" non-believers then?

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by Mike_A

 

I cannot make it any simpler than this seeing as the original and subsequent posts were to complicated for you.

Most argument Atheists use can also be used by THeists. THis IS because of the subject. Watch.


THere is no empirical data proving god.
THere is no empirical data Disproving god.

Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s) existence.
Theism is a lack of belief in god(s) nonexistence.


See? Does that make Theism a non belief? NO. It is a flawed argument that Atheists use to make themselves seem superior. It is egotistical garbage.

Your "lack of belief" argument holds no water on the subject of existence. And admitting to there being a possibility of an object without 100% certainty is a belief also. ugh And I thought Christians were thick headed about certain dogmas.

You forget:

(Negative explicit) Atheism is a lack of belief god(s) do not exist.
Theism is the belief in god(s).


And exactly this makes one a belief and the other not.