Afghanistan war logs: Massive leak of secret files exposes truth of occupation

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
No. I dont think they are "twisting the evidence." I think it takes time for a volunteer organization to sort through nearly 100,00 leaked documents, (this latest released batch alone, not to mention others they have) and I think they are trying to redact information that COULD get people killed, as they have stated, in documents that are more recent.

I think they are being as responsible as they can, considering their mission.

You have GOT to be kidding me! Do you honestly think that Wikileaks has a freaking single clue on US tactics, techniques and procedures and are responsible enough to redact what might cause a US Soldier harm and what should be released to the public?

If you do, I have some lake front property in Death Valley I'd love to sell to you.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by nite owl



Niteowl, if you hit the "reply" button when you post and are mad at someone, we will know who you are yelling at. And the person you want an apology from might actually do so. But, dont hold your breath on that one.

Originally posted by jerico65
So there's no such thing as personal responsibility. Gotcha. Whoever leaked all this info is in the clear, and anyone that's harmed due to the leak isn't his fault at all. In fact, it's the fault of the "homicidal maniacs" in the Pentagon; never the Taliban or insurgents.

Originally posted by jerico65
And you don't think that Wikileaks hasn't twisted the evidence?

Did anyone ever think that the reason why it's taken so long for this to come to light is that Wikileaks was twisting the information; deleting anything that might be good news, and exaggerating anything that's bad???

...ad nauseum!

jerico65, every one of your posts has been adequately answered already in this thread and yet you continue to regurgitate the same old claptrap. To be diplomatic, I'll agree with Larry's point that we should agree to disagree even though I'm convinced that you're playing devil's advocate.

Your argument is pretty much the same as the class bully who, having been reported by his victims, blames them for getting him in trouble instead of accepting that he is the one to blame.

You forget that it was proper, freelance journalism - reporting horrors of war such as the My Lai massacre and children getting napalmed as well as the never ending flag-draped coffins - that finally embarrassed the US Government into withdrawing from Vietnam - a war that was designed to never end, continuously generating profits for the "defense" industry.

Originally posted by jerico65

You'll never know now, will you?

Well, actually YES! It might take 30+ years but the truth always outs despite government attempts to cover up their crimes. I've never understood why they hang on to the incriminating evidence in the first place. Perhaps it's because they're proud of their accomplishments and want to enjoy the infamy posthumously!
Take a look at 33 Conspiracy Theories That Turned Out To Be True, What Every Person Should Know... if somehow you've missed out on some of these which might explain why you're so dead set on defending the US' warmongering.

As my last word to you on this subject, I'll just remind you of this well-phrased quote from Illusionsaregrander:

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
... Reading is hard. Thinking is hard. Why bother to look for facts that might, just might, shake your precious existing beliefs? Especially when it is so easy to find a channel where they will twist the evidence like a pretzel to support your existing belief system.

Its so much more comfortable when you dont let reality impinge upon your beliefs.

Originally posted by jerico65
Has yet. Your words. Just give it time, I'm certain someone will be getting the short end of the stick over the leaks.

I'm hoping it will the be the jobs of some of our so called leaders...

Seriously, you harp on one ambiguous aspect of my post which completely misses the point...

Our government lies to us for money.

Make sense now?

[edit on Fri, 30 Jul 2010 10:25:05 -0500 by MemoryShock]

Originally posted by jerico65

I classify that all as "war porn". People just love to see dead bodies, and bodies blasted into pieces by an IED are just too good to pass up. Especially if it's dead US troops.

Sorry, you're not going to get your fix, no matter in what high, exaulted terms you put it in.

War porn? How little you really understand human beings and the reason for the blackout of images of the wounded, dead, and dying.

Photojournalism helped turn the tide of public opinion against the war in Vietnam.

www.wellesley.edu...

Whatever the case may be, Vietnam was, like every other war- filled with death, destruction, and anguish. The thing that made the Vietnam War different from previous conflicts was that this time journalists were there to record the most heart-wrenching of those moments on film, and people everywhere were willing to immortalize them in their memories. The late 1960's and early 1970's were a period of intense transition for America as a nation, as we became more concerned with the humanistic aspects of life as a country. This change was seen in the protest movement of the Vietnam War, as the American people were no longer willing to stand by in the face of the senseless deaths of thousands of young men and women.

Our leaders learned from this. They learned that if you want to maintain apathy and prevent voters from protesting war, you need to keep the human cost hidden from the public. The only time we are allowed to see death is when it is being used to PROMOTE a war. To make the war seem more justified.

Concealing the suffering this war is causing to our troops, to the Iraqi civilians, and the Afghan civilians, is deliberate. Everything we see, everything we hear, is designed to keep our opposition to the war at manageable levels. So they can continue their grab for resources unimpeded.

You think those who oppose the war want the dead to be shown so we can laugh at our own dead soldiers? You have a very twisted view of people. Many of us have loved ones who have been there, or are going there. Friends, family, neighbors. You think we want to gloat over their corpses? You could not be more wrong.

NO ONE wants to see our troops lying there dead. Torn apart, bloodied. NO ONE wants to see little children blown up, burned, dead, maimed, and screaming. No one does. But thats the reality of war. If we are allowed to see it, we would not be able to sit comfortably in our homes while our men and women, and their men, women and children, suffer and die to make some few incredibly, grossly, obscenely wealthy.

And thats why they wont let us see the truth. Because we cant bear to see it, as a whole, and if we did have it staring us in the face, we could not continue to be apathetic about stopping this travesty. We would be forced by our humanity to act to end this.

Our leaders do not want an end to war. Its their business. Its how they and their friends make money and consolidate power. At our expense. At the expense of the soldiers they toss away like trash as soon as they return home. At the expense of innocent human beings around the world.

Our leaders learned from the Vietnam war. They learned to hide everything from us.

Assange just said in a interview posted on wikileaks twitter that the Wash Pos Black Ops USA thing is missing the good data, since the Wash Post gave it to the Us Gov so they could censor before launching it online

Forbes: The Washington Post just finished a two-year investigation on the growth of the intelligence community since 9/11. What did you think of it?


Assange: Some of it was fantastic, but they pulled their punches. They removed material which caused the story to have less traction than it otherwise would have. The Post also gave the White House information from their series in advance. At the government's request, they removed the names of countries hosting black sites--like Poland--for national security reasons. I'd call that craven behavior.

www.politico.com...

another article where a journalist from WashPost I suppose saying this:

The WikiLeaks Afghan dump is depressing. Very tired of our effort there being subjected to this kind of crap.

I mean the disclosing in a way that hurts us. It’s not like we’ve been prevented from knowing things are going poorly.

www.antiwar.com...

www.abc.net.au...

ASSANGE INTERVIEW WITH ABC

Best from it

"we gave the opportunity for the US government to help us censor the names of the informants, but they didnt respond to our request ... this was made thought ny times"


So, now the US GOV wants to say that this puts life in danger, but they didnt want to help to avoid that ... right .... this just shows u that any talk of this putting lifes in danger is just TALK by the US, since they dont care about life


they could have done something, but they choose not to ...

other good quote was + - this:

"about the case where XXX publish that they found a informant name and he was dead, that is a misinformation, since the informant was already dead ( 2 years ago), when we publish it .... so clearly an failed attempt to attack us ... "

so, we need to be careful to analyze some media trying to say they found informant names that may be in danger ... but I guess its possible, since in another interview he said it would be possible ...


[edit on 30/7/10 by Faiol]

Originally posted by JohnJasper
You forget that it was proper, freelance journalism....

Sorry, Homeslice. This isn't "proper, freelance journalism", this was sensitive information that was leaked by some ass-hat.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
I'm hoping it will the be the jobs of some of our so called leaders...

It won't be. It won't be some politican or any of the 'tards at Wikileaks. It will be some 11B in A-stan that will get the short end of the stick over this.
Make sense now?

Originally posted by wcitizen
The Taliban are old buddies of Obama (aka Soreto, aka God knows who).
The US is possibly even now providing them with weapons, as they did in the past, (via Obama as agent in the field), to keep the conflict alive.

And your source proving Obama's ties to the Taliban is where?
And saying "is possibly even now providing" just illustrates your uncertainty.
Do we really need to muddy the waters more with guesses and unsupported accusations?
No matter who you accuse, say why briefly please...

Originally posted by Visitor2012
reply to post by pavil

 

"I'm confused.....were supposed to arrest and try the Taliban as we fight them in a war? Personally I just prefer we kill them in engagements.......we are still allowed to fight them aren't we??? "

Are you joking or are you insane? You seem to relish in this evil, like you're a part of it.

It's called war for a reason and they have guns for a reason. Ever read a history book? Do you really think humans will never shoot each other in war again? Seriously! That's not evil, it's fact.

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by MemoryShock
I'm hoping it will the be the jobs of some of our so called leaders...

It won't be. It won't be some politican or any of the 'tards at Wikileaks. It will be some 11B in A-stan that will get the short end of the stick over this.
Make sense now?

So you understand that the begetters of war trickle down responsibility?

Checkmate.

Much to my chagrine...

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by EspyderMan

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by pavil

 

What right do we have to go and kill the Taliban?

Can you mention one law that gives us the right kill them?

Did you know that any American can be accused without trial?

They are not American, and if they were, the fighters would already be on death row for war crimes and murder charges and human rights violations. Of course they should be on a kill list. We could do the extradition and trial stuff and spend millions more tax dollars to put away the people who have cost how many lives of Americans AT HOME! (9/11) and on duty, it would be so cost prohibitive the end task would never be completed...especially considering the backlog of American cases awaiting hearing. Why short American trials for foreign murderers????

Several days back in a post to this thread, I made a statement regarding the admiration I felt for Wikileaks having the courage to come forward with what were secrets documents concerning the war in Afghanistan. If all this is on the level, then Julian Assange and Wikileaks still have my utmost admiration, but this morning as I turned on the computer I had a strong "sinking" feeling in my gut, telling me something about the release of these documents just didn't feel right. If what I'm about to say has already been posted by someone else, please accept my sincerest apologies, as I haven't yet caught up on the posts since my own on the 26th. What struck me was the possibilty that all those documents were given to Wikileaks for release, by those who controlled the Presidency of G.W. Bush, the same gang of murderers whom I believe were behind 911.
I appears now that just about everyone (myself included) has been praising Mr. Assange and Wikileaks for going public with these war documents, and now are ready to believe anything he says, and now he's saying those terrible events on 911 happened the way TPTB say they did, and that the truth seeking movement and other debunkers have it all wrong. I hope I'm wrong, but I now have a gut feeling that Mr Assange has been "bought out", threatened or has been part of the cover-up plans since before the day those buildings were imploded.

reply to post by Wench


Hitler had the same attitude about jews being guilty enough to summarily punish. German national socialists rounded up the guilty enough jews, put them in camps and subjected them to "verscharfte vernehmung", meaning "enhanced interrogation".

With the assistance of a para-military group called "schwarz wassen", "black water".. to protect what nazis called the "heimat", or "homeland"... all while 1930s Germans brainwashed by their dear party leader cheered & defended the heimats abhorrent fascist policies.

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by JohnJasper
You forget that it was proper, freelance journalism....

Sorry, Homeslice. This isn't "proper, freelance journalism", this was sensitive information that was leaked by some ass-hat.

You might remember your recent post where once again you were apologising for the US Gov's media control:

You know why you don't get to see US war dead? Because the military really has a problem with their casualites being used for any sort of political gain. Think if it was your son or daughter, and the local antiwar protestors formed up where they were taking him/her off the plane and started to say that he/she was a tool of the government and got what he/she deserved.

If it wasn't for the free press, which died shortly after the Vietnam occupation ended, we'd still be there denying the Vietnamese their freedom. As it is, we were able to start wars all around the world to replace it but only through the mixed smoke-and-mirrors of demonising democratically-elected regimes or puppet-govs that we set up, and limiting the number (or at least the reporting) of US casualties.

On July 4th, do you ever suddenly link that hamburger in your hand with the meat-grinder of America's wars? Keep convincing yourself that it's all being done to keep American's free!

For an example on how US hedgemony, check out this article:
dd

Tim Coles takes us through 11 steps necessary to create a “terrorist state”. Using Yemen as a case study, he argues that these steps precisely match US and British policies in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran as well as Yemen to grow “very poisonous seeds”, some which have ripened while others are ripening.

(Why isn't there a smilie for "wasting my breath?")

JohnJasper, reporting from cyberspace, goodnight!

Originally posted by JohnJasper
You might remember your recent post where once again you were apologising for the US Gov's media control......

I wasn't apologizing, I was explaining the reason why to people that don't have a clue.

People here are getting their mom's panties in a bunch over this, whining, "It's US propaganda that's not allowing us to see the US casualities! They're hiding it from us and we deserve to see them!"

Sorry, you don't.

You think it's US propaganda that's stopping the "free press", but don't you think that others would use the photos of US dead for their own propaganda?

You want to see combat dead and wounded, get a rifle and earn that right.

Originally posted by JohnJasper
If it wasn't for the free press, which died shortly after the Vietnam occupation ended, we'd still be there denying the Vietnamese their freedom.

Tell that to the pro-US Vietnamese there were trucked off to "re-education camps".

Originally posted by JohnJasper
On July 4th, do you ever suddenly link that hamburger in your hand with the meat-grinder of America's wars? Keep convincing yourself that it's all being done to keep American's free!

Originally posted by JohnJasper
(Why isn't there a smilie for "wasting my breath?")

Why isn't there one for, "I don't give a rat's ass"

Originally posted by MemoryShock
So you understand that the begetters of war trickle down responsibility?

Checkmate.

Much to my chagrine...

You think that this is something new in history?

Checkmate that.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
War porn? How little you really understand human beings and the reason for the blackout of images of the wounded, dead, and dying.

How little you understand about it all.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
You think those who oppose the war want the dead to be shown so we can laugh at our own dead soldiers? You have a very twisted view of people. Many of us have loved ones who have been there, or are going there. Friends, family, neighbors. You think we want to gloat over their corpses? You could not be more wrong.

You mean the same, caring, loving people that called me and a few friends "murderer"? Those people? Or the one that said, "I hope your son dies in Iraq" to my dad? Just curious....

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
If we are allowed to see it, we would not be able to sit comfortably in our homes while our men and women, and their men, women and children, suffer and die to make some few incredibly, grossly, obscenely wealthy.

This is the funniest thing I've read. Do you HONESTLY think you'll find out about a war, find out what it's like to fight, but watching it on TV or reading it in a newspaper or online?

And there are always groups of people that make money off a war. Has been happening all thru history. It sucks, but it happens.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
And thats why they wont let us see the truth. Because we cant bear to see it, as a whole, and if we did have it staring us in the face, we could not continue to be apathetic about stopping this travesty. We would be forced by our humanity to act to end this.

So, what you want is pictures of dead US Soldiers so you can use them for your own benefit of protesting an end to the war? Using them for your own propaganda? And you think your use of pictures like that is any different from the US Government not releasing them for their own means??