Are those that never heard of Christ burning in hell?

reply to post by DISRAELI


One of the points I was making was that, particularly in the US, when religion is ever discussed, it's primarily the Christian one. Most Americans appear to be oblivious to the fact that there are other faiths in the world, far more ancient than Christianity in some cases. Take this quote from the Original Poster for example: "You have to accept Jesus Christ in your heart to be saved." It's as if the whole world revolves around this single religion and person.

When you remove religion, you begin to realize that we are all spiritual beings, created equally, regardless of skin colour, gender, sexuality, wealth, social status and religious beliefs. We're all here to have experiences on earth and allow the soul to learn and evolve via a multitude of incarnations. This isn't a concrete definition of life - just my interpretation of it... but the bottom line is this - organized religions have led to the manipulation of the way people think, such as the OP, as well as to the death and destruction of countless lives.

reply to post by Venetian

OK, I was responding to your original remarks, which were about the postings on ATS.
As far as ATS is concerned, there are two angles-
Why the atheist posters are not attacking other religions (presumably they are reacting to the social dominance of Christianlty)
And why other religions "are not bombarding the forum". But, in fact, they are- though in lesser numbers, which may reflect the proportion of users. In recent weeks, I've seen Islamic propaganda and Buddhist propaganda, and one recent propagandising Gnostic. ATS is already fairly multireligious.



[edit on 24-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by Venetian

I certainly never meant to make it seem like my world or anyone elses revolves around Christ 'saving' us. I am not religious, but I am interested in all religions and when I want answers I seek them out like some do. Organized religion has certainly not shaped the way I think, except to seperate myself from them as far as possible in my own 'spiritual' journey, and my own personal beliefs (never set in stone) are that religions can also serve a better purpose than just "death and destruction", but I do agree they are frequently a dual-edged sword.

Jesus is like the icon on the banner leading the army into the battlefield.
If you are in the opposing army and did not realize who you were fighting, up till now, when you see him before you lifted up, it is the signal to get behind it and to give up your position before it.

There is a Holy Spirit and that should not be forgotten and is equally important for the salvation of mankind as the other figures that we have in mid that relate to the god concept, which is closer to the reality of it. That operates on the real level of existence that transcends the physical which is less real but is where we exercise our spiritual feelings.
Whether we have heard the name of Jesus or not, his work in our world allowed for the full exertion of the spirit that intends to draw a line between future existence for souls in particular, or not.

[edit on 25-7-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Balkan


No they aren't.

Their soul is sleeping in death.
And one day God will bring them back.

Originally posted by Balkan

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by Balkan

 

Yes, I said garbage. Because it's pointless to have accept a man in order to be saved from hell.

Ok, and how is that on topic? I see you don't like religious topics, why post in them at all? Trolling, perhaps?

Yep, trolling.

Don't feed the troll.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by hippomchippo

 

You can consider that. Maybe I just had it with all these similar threads being posted non stop.

Time is short, the spirit is putting it on a great many of our hearts to tell folks about the gospel as soon as possible. Pretty soon the door will be closed.

If you're (OP) looking for the doctrine answer, then several have already given it...

If you know of Jesus, but don't accept him as your savior, you go to Hell.
If you don't know of him, so therefore can't accept him, you go to Limbo.

Personally, one should realize that this doctrine means the majority of the world's population is destined for Hell or Limbo. Does that really sound like something a kind and benevolent deity would tolerate?

Now, there are sects of Christianity that promote a more loose interpretation, but strictly going from scripture, those not accepting Jesus are doomed.

That's the big problem with any kind of exclusionist religion...the idea some are right, and some are wrong, is just plain ludicrous in my opinion. I think we've got some of the basics right (love your fellow man, treat others as you would want to be treated, try to be a good person, etc.), but I think we get too hung up on our own little created rituals and dogma as we try to package it for others.

reply to post by Gazrok


So you're saying it's "illogical" for YOU that God would dictate how we are to approach Him??? It's not His right to tell us the terms?

Trying to assign logic to faith is an exercise in futility.

On the contrary, you are asserting that it's logical to believe that the supreme deity, creator of the Universe, has somehow failed to inform the MAJORITY of the planet that he is indeed the one we should all be following.

Muslims and Buddhists far outnumber Christians. Perhaps one of them is "right"?

Personally, I don't think any group is "right". I do believe that some kind of grand force is behind us all being here, but to slap a name on it because a text written centuries ago did...and assume that all other claims are false, is just a bit ridiculous. (in my personal opinion).

In addition, even if one were to believe those books, why not the other books by the same authors? (i.e. many books were left out of the "official" Bible). Just because a Council agreed what to believe, and what to throw out?

Personally, I just try and be a good human being, respectful of others, and live a good life. If that isn't good enough for God, Jesus, Yahweh, Buddha, Allah, etc., then that's just too darn bad, and I guess I'll just get what's coming to me. Better that, than spending eternity with such egoism, and need to be worshipped 24/7...


[edit on 26-7-2010 by Gazrok]

I think the OP's question, ... in itself, should show you how utterly absurd Christianity is.

Second Line ...... ABSURD.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Trying to assign logic to faith is an exercise in futility.

On the contrary, usually I'm constantly trying to get folks to NOT use logical fallacies to support their assertions and beliefs when debating matters of faith. Secondly, my God is the author of logic, seems like I should use it to the best of my ability.

On the contrary, you are asserting that it's logical to believe that the supreme deity, creator of the Universe, has somehow failed to inform the MAJORITY of the planet that he is indeed the one we should all be following.

Straw man argument. Neither have I stated, nor do I BELIEVE that God has in any way been inadequate informing mankind about Him or His plan for salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Muslims and Buddhists far outnumber Christians. Perhaps one of them is "right"?

Appeal to numbers fallacy. The number of people who agree on something is irrelevant to it's truthfulness. And Jesus said the path to life was narrow and only few find it, yet the pathway to destruction is wide and many are on that road.

Personally, I don't think any group is "right". I do believe that some kind of grand force is behind us all being here, but to slap a name on it because a text written centuries ago did...and assume that all other claims are false, is just a bit ridiculous. (in my personal opinion).

"Pluralism" is a self-refuting logical fallacy. Secondly, I trust the bible as God's Word because it declares it to be so, and it's backed up by thousands of prophetic verses. Only an omniscient deity could inspire such things, only God who "declares the end from the beginning" could reveal this stuff before it happens.

In addition, even if one were to believe those books, why not the other books by the same authors? (i.e. many books were left out of the "official" Bible). Just because a Council agreed what to believe, and what to throw out?

What are you smoking? I seriously hope you're not talking about the council of Nicea. They never discussed the cannon of scripture at Nicea. that's a lie, the full minutes of the council are recorded. Secondly, the Gnostic Scriptures have all been dated universally by scholars to the 2nd and 3rd centuries. Long after the true apostles of Christ had been dead.

Personally, I just try and be a good human being, respectful of others, and live a good life. If that isn't good enough for God, Jesus, Yahweh, Buddha, Allah, etc., then that's just too darn bad, and I guess I'll just get what's coming to me. Better that, than spending eternity with such egoism, and need to be worshipped 24/7...

Being "good" will keep you out of jail man, you need to blood of Jesus Christ to keep you out of Hell.

reply to post by Venetian


"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
-John8.58

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.-Dan7.13

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.-1Cor15.45

he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.-Col1.18

Originally posted by Balkan
Are all the people who died after Christ died, but had never heard of him, burning in hell?

They are still dead... awaiting resurrection and will be judged according to how they lived their lives.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Being "good" will keep you out of jail man, you need to blood of Jesus Christ to keep you out of Hell.

The one who claimed that Christs death and belief in him as a savior would redeem you, never met Jesus. And we have no one but his own, and his physician and traveling companion, (Luke) who also never met Jesus that he even had an encounter with the Holy Spirit.

And Jesus himself said,

www.biblegateway.com...

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Now, either Jesus was just horribly wrong, and bad trees CAN bear good fruit, and Jesus was also misunderstanding of the nature of his task here, or, something is awry with Pauls message.

Those who live a good life, regardless whether they know the teachings of Jesus will enter into heaven. Those who do not live a good life, (as Jesus defined it, loving thy neighbor, and enemy, judging not, etc.) will not be sent away, regardless what they believe the blood of Christ was supposed to do for them.

We were redeemed by the life of Jesus, not his death. He came to show us by his actions and words the way to live and to be, the way that God intended for us. Not to die so that we could continue to be as hateful as ever.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


How utterly ignorant...

You need to read 1 and 2 Peter, or will you say next that Peter didn't know what he was talking about either??

The scriptures are clear.

John 3:
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Revelation 20:
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Now the first is the best and assured way along with

[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call

You must follow all of God's commandments and stay repentant, that does not mean Drink all week and confess on Sunday. That means acknowledge you are sinning and stop doing it.

The second option of white throne judgment is not so good as all of your sins will have to be accounted for and will be show before all.

When you are save God will never bring up your past sins.

I do not really like the idea of putting God in a box. And this is a good question really. My view on this is I can't see God not giving those that have passed without the ability to have known of Jesus through no fault of their own a chance to do so at all before having to face judgment on their works.

And quite frankly I personally believe that those that did have a chance to in life will be given a chance to do so one last time before having to face judgment on their works alone. To me it seems a natural part of what I would expect a loving parent to do.

But that is just the way I see it.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes, utter ignorance on my part to care that what I am reading and following actually have some basis in the teachings of Jesus.

I do think Peter would have known what he was talking about.........but did Peter write 1 and 2 Peter? The majority of Biblical scholars think he did NOT write them, but that they were written after his death by an anonymous author.

Of course, if you believe that every word in the Bible is actually written by who it is attributed to, and if you believe that everything in the Bible is by definition inspired by God, you wont care about certain little details like that. For those who DO care who said what, and who want to try and avoid the many corruptions of the teaching of Jesus over time, these details are important.

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38
The scriptures are clear.

John 3:
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"Believeth" means "believe." Jesus was not saying that you had to believe in his existence, but to believe, have faith in, his word and teachings.

en.wiktionary.org...

1. (archaic) Third-person singular simple present indicative form of believe.  [quotations ▲]
* 1611, King James Version of the Bible (Authorized Version), John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In other words, you better make sure you are following the teachings of Jesus and not some false prophet that came shortly afterward, and who teaches something Jesus did not. Like Jesus warned about.

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38
Revelation 20:
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And here, you say it yourself. You will be judged, according to your works.

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38
When you are save God will never bring up your past sins.

There is no justification for this in the teachings of Jesus himself. He is adamant and repetitive that your works are the crucial thing. James also reiterates that faith without works is dead.

Only Paul seems to indicate that faith alone will save you, and that Jesus' death removed from us the requirement that we live according to the teachings of Jesus.

www.biblegateway.com...

Matthew 7:13-14 (New King James Version)

The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Those who are counting on the blood of Christ alone to save them are on trying to enter through the wide gate. The more difficult way, and more narrow path, is to live as Jesus told us to. Hating not, judging not, and loving one another.