God or Satan

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Then you should presume that every terrorist /islamic jihad action is righteous? That is what you are arguing for!

Unless you're replying to something other than what the link goes to, I think you need to read it again. God created choice. We opt to make bad choices. The choice we make results in the evil, not the fact we have a choice. God could PREVENT evil by taking away our choice, but he has chosen not to do that. That doesn't allow you to abrogate responsibility.

How about the violent destruction of every human born gay through natural mishaps ?

Or how about death to all who violate the Sabbath?

Or the persecution of more than a hundred thousand by another Inquisition?

How about the 681,692 people that the Soviet Union executed from 1937-38? The tens of millions killed in China during the Cultural Revolution? Or the Khmer Rouge, thought to have killed up to a quarter of their entire country's population? All ostensibly atheistic governments (though only the Cambodians really killed anyone in the "name of atheism".)

If you think all evil, cruelty, bigotry and persecution is due to religion, you are sadly mistaken. If people did nothing beyond do what Christ taught, there would be none of what you are talking about, because he said that you need only love God, and love everyone else. Can't be hatin' on the gays or Sabbath violators if you truly love them.

What if god wanted you to murder your child? Is that "good"?

Well, I'm not Abraham, and if I felt a compunction like that, I would apply it to my faith, religion and theology and decide, right or wrong, that it was a message that did not come from God.

God calls for "Jihad" and condones war in the name of "god" . God does not have to take away choice for evil not to exist , just eliminate evil. The same way we cannot describe choose eat Chicken caviar or hold up 4 hands at once. Just because we cannot choose to doesn't mean free-will doesn't exist. Same thing with evil and one of the lamest popular excuses for evil and why god allows it.

What does communist materialism have to do with Atheism? The deaths under Stalin were related to repression of people . No one group was persecuted more than another in the lower class.
Khmer Rouge was the elimination of ALL other parties with any power in Cambodia, of which were killed to "eliminate threats to the ruling party" Most Included Thai , Chinese nationals , intellectuals teachers , farmers ,etc.

And they are not perfect, all-loving, just "gods" As for the Sabbath and gays... well god says you have to according to his law in the Bible... So you must love to do it unless you say "god" is wrong.....?

So if you "thought" "God" was really speaking to lil ol' you and your god has done this thing before(sick character) you would do it?

Originally posted by IamBoon

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by Centurionx

 

Not true entirely, there is more than enough "proof" and logical concepts to disprove every god promoted in all the major religions.

Okay, I'm game. Kindly disprove Christ. Actually, I'd be open to seeing you disprove any "god promoted in all the major religion", but I'll settle for Christ, as he is the one that I'm most familiar with.

Well As far as him existing? No records except the Testament. Weird as a lot of really insignificant crap was recorded in ROme around then yet no one mention this man or his miracles.

Did he die? There is not a single time he states he is "The son of god" or "god" He could just be a good moral teacher?

Why would Rome record a minor execution in an insignificant part of their empire? Of someone not executed for a crime against Rome, but for a local religious infraction?

Christ was not merely a "good moral teacher". Christ was put to death for the Jewish crime of blasphemy, because he claimed to be God. There was no crime worse than that. And yet, he claimed to forgive sins, which all Jews believed only God could do. Beyond anything else, that single thing merited death by stoning. No "good moral teacher" starts by spitting in the face of his own law (Christ being Jewish, of course.)

The Pauline Letters from the 50s indicate a fairly significant church community, exactly as depicted in Acts, and by the time we get to the point where there is indisputable historical evidence of the Christian church, said church is too large to have come into existence via an avenue other than what is portrayed in the Bible.

Christianity has grown to over 2 billion people in 2000 years, from a core of 12 Apostles and a handful of others, all of whom went to their deaths willingly, claiming the worst blasphemy imaginable, that God became man in the form of Jesus, died and was resurrected. If these eyewitnesses knew that to not be the case, why would they have martyred themselves, particularly knowing that there was nothing in the afterlife for them but punishment.

As for all of your Old Testament based polemics, only fundamentalist Christians believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament. I don't understand why God would have acted in that fashion, if he did, but it doesn't matter.

Jews come to God through the Torah, by following the Law. Muslims come to God through the Quran. Christians do NOT come to God through the Bible, we come to God through Christ, and Christ alone. And what did Christ say one needed to do to attain salvation? Love God, and love each other. Nothing else.

Sorry, but you've failed to disprove Christ, in any fashion. However, you've demonstrated that you don't really know much about him, so your failure to disprove him is understandable.

Originally posted by IamBoon
God calls for "Jihad" and condones war in the name of "god".

Do you understand the difference between "God told the Imam to declare Jihad" and "The Imam thinks that God told him to declare Jihad"? Do you think that every Imam reliably does?

God does not have to take away choice for evil not to exist , just eliminate evil. The same way we cannot describe choose eat Chicken caviar or hold up 4 hands at once. Just because we cannot choose to doesn't mean free-will doesn't exist. Same thing with evil and one of the lamest popular excuses for evil and why god allows it.

Let's take a basic evil, murder. Cain wants to slay Abel. How does God prevent this without either denying free will (forcing Cain to change his mind, blocking him from thinking about it in the first place,) or altering reality (preventing anything from doing physical damage, or not allowing people to die at another's hand.)

Would you prefer a world where you have no choices, a world where your choices are micromanaged by God to determine if they're "evil enough" to be supressed, or a world where you can have no reliable expectations of reality?

What does communist materialism have to do with Atheism? The deaths under Stalin were related to repression of people . No one group was persecuted more than another in the lower class.

If the greatest evils have been done outside of religion, and it's demonstrated that most of the evils done in the "name" of religion really had non-religious aims, it is foolish to claim that eliminating religion would have the effect of reducing evil, as the good that religion does, carefully ignored by most anti-theists, almost certainly outweighs the evil that is purely attributable to it.

Pedophile priests? Horrible, horrible aberration. But if pedophiles exist out of the priesthood, which they do, and the Church does not teach pedophilia as part of their doctrine, which they do not, it follows that eliminating religion would not eliminate this problem. The Church is to blame, egregiously, for their failure to have these deviants arrested, prosecuted and excommunicated from the Church, but that is the real problem, not religion in general.

Originally posted by wassy

Anyone ever think that maybe God as in the God of the bible was acually evil and Lucifer was right in trying to take him down I mean maybe God was abusing his power too much and Lucifer thought that it was wrong

It's all a tongue twister. In the recordings, this god didn't even notice the serpent about to launch the fall. This omnipotent being was 'elsewhere'. the god depicted did like the Humans teaching the script, and blamed the ones "tricked". Even though as the literature states, were weak compared to a deitic being, this satan. It's nothing more than something to speak, and yes, I've noted when pressed in corners, even these Holly-Rollers mandate witchery, and 'write-off' otheres

reply to post by adjensen


Christ is not "alone" He has a father, and a holy spirit. His father is the guy Jews love!

And yes there would be historical evidence for him as there was for many other such entities bearing a striking resemblance to Christ. If Jesus came by the Father through a virgin , then what is said is true of god in the bible as he was revealed that way and accepted. Too many errors. He must've not been born through a virgin either! OMG he just looks like many of these "godmen" we have living here today! At least they admit to portraying god. Jesus was a good guy though... even though he was very weary of outsiders , like most cultists, even saying to a canaanite begging for help "I will not throw a dog meat that belongs to the Jews." We all have our faults though AS HUMANS!

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by IamBoon
God calls for "Jihad" and condones war in the name of "god".

Do you understand the difference between "God told the Imam to declare Jihad" and "The Imam thinks that God told him to declare Jihad"? Do you think that every Imam reliably does?

God does not have to take away choice for evil not to exist , just eliminate evil. The same way we cannot describe choose eat Chicken caviar or hold up 4 hands at once. Just because we cannot choose to doesn't mean free-will doesn't exist. Same thing with evil and one of the lamest popular excuses for evil and why god allows it.

Let's take a basic evil, murder. Cain wants to slay Abel. How does God prevent this without either denying free will (forcing Cain to change his mind, blocking him from thinking about it in the first place,) or altering reality (preventing anything from doing physical damage, or not allowing people to die at another's hand.)

Would you prefer a world where you have no choices, a world where your choices are micromanaged by God to determine if they're "evil enough" to be supressed, or a world where you can have no reliable expectations of reality?

What does communist materialism have to do with Atheism? The deaths under Stalin were related to repression of people . No one group was persecuted more than another in the lower class.

If the greatest evils have been done outside of religion, and it's demonstrated that most of the evils done in the "name" of religion really had non-religious aims, it is foolish to claim that eliminating religion would have the effect of reducing evil, as the good that religion does, carefully ignored by most anti-theists, almost certainly outweighs the evil that is purely attributable to it.

Pedophile priests? Horrible, horrible aberration. But if pedophiles exist out of the priesthood, which they do, and the Church does not teach pedophilia as part of their doctrine, which they do not, it follows that eliminating religion would not eliminate this problem. The Church is to blame, egregiously, for their failure to have these deviants arrested, prosecuted and excommunicated from the Church, but that is the real problem, not religion in general.

Do you not understand "read the damn Q'ran before you claim any knowledge of it?"


And just like I stated, Does that mean god has taken away the choices I want to make but cannot>? What about flying on a banana , or one hand clapping? It is the same as the thought of murder in the sense that if he didn't CREATE it we would not know the difference except things would be better!

By your argument we should strive for "evil" so we can exercise our free-will , Absolutely absolute drivel.

As for the last point, Communist regimes had no religious motive. And I never claimed I wished anything to be eliminated, Especially Theism because it does do a lot of good and is not the root of evil. I dunno why you think I am a cardboard atheist but your wrong, And so are even most atheists thoughts on why they are right! Anyways terrible and mute point

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Christ is not "alone" He has a father, and a holy spirit. His father is the guy Jews love!

When did I say that he was "alone"? I said that Christians come to God through Christ, which pretty well avers that he's not alone.

And yes there would be historical evidence for him as there was for many other such entities bearing a striking resemblance to Christ.

Again, you are dealing with a small corner of the known world. During his life, Christ's mission was limited to the Jews and, largely, to Judea, and he mostly told people to stay silent about his acts and statements. To expect that you'll find a reference to it in Roman documents from 33AD seems highly unlikely. There is plenty of documentary evidence of Christ, but since it's the Christians who are making it, I suppose that's inherently suspect for a disbeliever, but who else would you think is going to writing about this guy in Judea who is going off on the establishment? The Pharisees? The Sanhedrin? Gentiles?

If Jesus came by the Father through a virgin , then what is said is true of god in the bible as he was revealed that way and accepted. Too many errors. He must've not been born through a virgin either!

What you have written here doesn't make any sense, but as you are most likely making a point about the virgin birth, please restate it. I never said nothing in the Bible is true, and I never said that we should ignore what is in the Bible. The Bible is the testament (read, "testimony") of the divinity of Christ, whether in ancient prophecy that predated him and was fulfilled, or the personal testimony of the Gospels and Epistles. What it is not is the means by which we reconcile ourselves to God.

Does that mean god has taken away the choices I want to make but cannot>? What about flying on a banana , or one hand clapping? It is the same as the thought of murder in the sense that if he didn't CREATE it we would not know the difference except things would be better!

Having free will doesn't mean that you can define reality by your choice. Want to fly on a banana? Okay, free will gives you the ability to make the decision that you want to. Actually making it work is up to you, there's no decision in that, so free will is irrelevant.

By your argument we should strive for "evil" so we can exercise our free-will , Absolutely absolute drivel.

There is nothing in my argument that implies that in the least, and your statement is nonsensical. By Christian theology, exercising free will, making decisions on our own, is something that God grants. Free will is, in itself good and evil "agnostic", if you will. The good or evil comes from what we use that free will to decide, and, while God wants you to make good decisions, it's ultimately up to you.

reply to post by adjensen


"Let's take a basic evil, murder. Cain wants to slay Abel. How does God prevent this without either denying free will (forcing Cain to change his mind, blocking him from thinking about it in the first place,)"


This is exactly my point. Do you as a parent want your child to witness or even undergo molestation just because it is a choice in reality? God can prevent anything without our knowledge of it or taking away from our right to choose by making it not exist. What else can I say?

Could a 4 th century monk watch TV? Because it didn't exist. Was his free-will limited by that ? NO! And if god can create and do anything , you have to ask yourself how much praise is he worth if he cannot lessen suffering? If he cannot stop evil from corrupting humans? If he wishes to make humans suffer? Is he doing evil? Hmmmpff. Seems quite trite if you ask me.

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by adjensen

 

"Let's take a basic evil, murder. Cain wants to slay Abel. How does God prevent this without either denying free will (forcing Cain to change his mind, blocking him from thinking about it in the first place,)"

This is exactly my point. Do you as a parent want your child to witness or even undergo molestation just because it is a choice in reality? God can prevent anything without our knowledge of it or taking away from our right to choose by making it not exist. What else can I say?

If you are saying that God created the deviation of pedophilia, I would disagree. If you are saying that God could prevent pedophilia, I'm not sure how he would do that. But doesn't it occur to you that WE could prevent pedophilia, and we should, whether God exists or not? And thus, your beef is with humanity, not God?

Could a 4 th century monk watch TV? Because it didn't exist. Was his free-will limited by that ? NO! And if god can create and do anything , you have to ask yourself how much praise is he worth if he cannot lessen suffering? If he cannot stop evil from corrupting humans? If he wishes to make humans suffer? Is he doing evil? Hmmmpff. Seems quite trite if you ask me.

Sadly, I must fall back again on the argument that pain and suffering exist largely because of decisions that we make, and why God does not prevent them in toto is for reasons that are beyond my understanding. This is not a minor issue, and as such, should not be treated as one. God says that he is good, so either he's a liar, or there is something to him, "good" or reality that we don't understand and reconciles that statement.

Evil is choosing to act contrary to God's law, nothing more. Because God created the law, and gave us free will to allow us to choose it or not, God "created" the opportunity for us to opt to do evil. But the opportunity doesn't cause evil, because we could all opt not to do so, and that would be the end of evil.

So I guess if I were to believe all that, the next logical question would be, why would God create evil, make laws against being evil, then give us the "opportunity" to choose evil in our decisions? If this is all some sort of 'soul experiment', where God only weeds out the best souls to go to 'heaven', I think it's fair to say to say his experiment has failed miserably and that he has lost far, far more than he gained.

We pay the price of our creation we never asked for, not God.

When God comes down to earth (pun) and tells us in no uncertain terms, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what his 'laws' really are, until then I'll take what MAN says God's laws are with a grain of salt, especially since most religions can't seem to reach a consensus on those so called 'laws', can they (except what can be interpreted as obvious). There's a fine line between your 'good' and 'evil'. If Satan cannot do works against his nature (good), then how can God. Ah, that's right... he's both, isn't he? Very interesting.

Do you think evil is something tangible, like a block of cheese or something?

Evil is choosing to act contrary to God's law, nothing more. Because God created the law, and gave us free will to allow us to choose it or not, God "created" the opportunity for us to opt to do evil. But the opportunity doesn't cause evil, because we could all opt not to do so, and that would be the end of evil.

Evil is not the result of acting contrary to God's law but the result of lack and limitation. God's law's only defines certain behaviour as such, but we also know in our hearts what is evil and what is not. Although most of us.

Where there is lack or limitation, there is evil. If we would be immortal, killing would had no use. If we had unlimited abundance, stealing would not exsist. Where there is hierarchy there is the possibility for envy or jealousy.

If you find the source of limitations, do you find the source of evil? Who made us mortal? Who made us struggle for food and living? Who limited our knowlegde and put a dead penalty on aquiring it?

These things keep me thinking about God and satan, religion is all about limitation and builds a tension field to make evil possible.
Look at the Catholic church: Limit the sexual urge of your priests and you create a higher possibilty for sexual sin.

God, the bible and the church learns us that we are evil from birth, to despice the most beautiful gift we got "Our human life on this beautiful planet". We learn from childhood not to enjoy this life here to much and keep looking to our life in heaven, not to enjoy to much this "evil" body and "evil" planet with all these "sinners" around us who do enjoy life. Brainwashing us from childhood with lack and limitation.
Planting the roots of evil within us...

We also learned that God's "unlimited" love only stretches out to those who "believe" in him. This also sounds like lack and limitation to me...

So find the root of evil, the root of lack and limitation and you find the real satan. Search for Abundance, Life and unlimited Love and you find God.

LOL you guys are seriously arguing to yourselves what is the point in this argument? neither of you are gonna change your minds just keep your beliefs to yourselves. Besides why would God give a damn about us anyways we are all just tiny little microorganisms living on an atom on his left butt cheek. Lets get back to the original topic please, I was hoping to see some replies about the Brotherhood of the Snake.

Originally posted by Balkan
So I guess if I were to believe all that, the next logical question would be, why would God create evil, make laws against being evil, then give us the "opportunity" to choose evil in our decisions?

I do view this as a sort of experiment, but we're not the subject of it.

Again, you guys seem to believe that evil is some tangible object that can be created and exists separate from good, like the lump of concentrated evil in "Time Bandits" or the Loc-Nar in "Heavy Metal". Evil is the absence of good, and it's a gradient, not a black and white judgement.

You have life. Your life can be taken from you. If I take your life from you, that is an evil act. To allow us free will, so that we're not mindless automatons, God lets us make our own decisions, which includes the option of not doing evil, not taking your life from you.

I don't get why that's so difficult to understand, and it always seems to come back to people not wanting to take responsibility for themselves, and to blame their greed, or sloth or anger on "God giving me free will" than them not having morals, good sense or discipline.

When God comes down to earth (pun) and tells us in no uncertain terms, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what his 'laws' really are

I don't generally quote scripture, but here you go. Clear, concise, and there's only two laws. Now that your request has been fulfilled, are you going to follow them?

Luke 10:25-28

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Originally posted by LuckyMe777
reply to post by SNAFU38

 

You do not understand. You say that the people who give have it all bad. But that isn't bad. Isn't it nice to know that you ARE giving and putting people before your self? Isn't the greatest reward knowing that you are helping people in this world that you dont even know exist?

You do not need to be well-off to enjoy life. You can find fun things to do without having top of the line stuff. I have many things that I dont even need, and if you look around, you do too. we all do and yet we take it for granted. just make use of what you have and live.

[edit on 23-7-2010 by LuckyMe777]

I do understand actually. I gave until I physically couldnt give any more. I dont have nice stuff, I run things into the ground & only replace them when absolutely needed. I am currently wearing clothes my mother got me as a kid over 25yrs ago. No, I dont want it all, but you know what would be nice, something. How about let me get out of debt so I could be charitable. How about fix my body so I can get back out volunteering or enjoy life ? No, should I have to die ? Well Ive nearly done that a fair few times volunteering.

God is not fair, I gave until I was physically & financially bankrupt, its done me no good.

reply to post by wassy


Well, it seems both of these entities cause a lot of problems here on Earth...

Is there a third choice?

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior
reply to post by wassy

 

Yes very productive thread you run here. I guess no one in here is allowed to share opinions unless they agree with you. Also nobody is allowed to respond to your replies, no one is allowed to give discourse at any point. I have a prediction. This thread will DIE. Don't bother replying. I won't look back.

Wow, sad.
You're an embarrasment for all atheists.
Did you read the thread? it's about whether the deity in the bible is evil or not.
Not whether you believed in it, good lord.

Originally posted by SNAFU38
God is not fair, I gave until I was physically & financially bankrupt, its done me no good.

If you are a person of God, you know full well that it has done you good. Store up your treasures in heaven, not on Earth, eh? I find it unusual that a person who has given as you have would be disappointed in the lack of physical and material well being, and most particularly that you'd blame God for it.

God must be evil in my mind.
I don't see infinite punishment for finite crimes justifiable in any way.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by SNAFU38
God is not fair, I gave until I was physically & financially bankrupt, its done me no good.

If you are a person of God, you know full well that it has done you good. Store up your treasures in heaven, not on Earth, eh? I find it unusual that a person who has given as you have would be disappointed in the lack of physical and material well being, and most particularly that you'd blame God for it.

How can I be sure there is a heaven if I cant be sure I trust the entity that claims to have created it ? Why would any person who sacrificed all but his life (& was willing to) want to keep following blindly for nothing, eh ?

I see no sign of god, yet for some reason I cant stop believing. Ive done all I can, & if he can do ALL, then whats the harm in him proving to me, even in just a little way, that he does exist & does actually give a #@*!

IF he knows all, then he would know that, by allowing me to get myself out of debt (not give, I work for it), or allowing my doctors to figure out whats wrong with me, I will not run off. He would know Id go back to helping others, IF he knows it ALL. I see no proof. People demand proof of UFO's & everything else, whats wrong with providing just a little proof, & by that action, a LOT of hope, to a world of souls that are becoming more & more lost ??

You cannot answer that because there is NO reason for him not to. If there ever has been a time, it is now. Blind faith is dead, & if nothing is done to show a sign, so is the catholic church.

god abandoned us! to find are own way.
is that a loving god?
it is like a father chucking a child in to deep water to teach it to swim.
if it drowns. oh well it was not worthy!!!

just look at the evil in this world.
I see many drowning children.
and god will not just kill them.
he will make them suffer in hell for his fun.
then kill them!!!

Christians are like the loyal government sheep.
they blindly follow. no mater what.

God was killing so many people that he had to go to rehab.
and he made a promise to stop on a rainbow!?
um god gave us free will? no way, lies.
you use your free will he kills you and you go to hell.
is that free will?

worshiping a mans suffering, the cross.
is what satan would like.

non of us know what god is.
you dont need a book or a church.
you need love a good hart.
just be a good nice person.

you dont need to be a slave to a church.
thats just conforming to the people around you.
12 apposes ! 4 books what happened to the rest?
the Romans or the government.
the Romans only let what they like be printed.
so can you really believe any of it?