God theory: I attempt to prove the existence of God (mind you I said 'attempt')

if anyone succeeds at proving god exists (to everyone else also) i hope there will be enough room in god's universe for anyone's ego and/or anyones' egos, or whatever you think the outcome may be.

bestest wishes,
et

OK rule 1 b... God is absolute creator and he created the universe. Everything that stems from this creation does he create? I can see imperfection in the way biological systems behave , did he create that?

What are your imperfections? Perhaps you think that a beings inability to survive harsh climates is an imperfection, but it is the role of nature to place creatures within climates they can survive, and if they were removed from this, they would die, because that is their nature. Perhaps you think that dying is an imperfection of nature, but if nothing died, there would be no change, and thus there would be no variety to nature, and hence no creations, meaning the Creator would not have a role to play.

I have more but anyways onto rule # 2!!!!

So God creates a "lower world" .... Creating something of less quality than optimal for all beings is not "perfect" nor would a "perfect" being have a part that is "lower" as you say about "God enters into this world, as a lower soul" So a part of him is lower than the other? That is not equal and both cannot be perfect either. Creating with imperfections is also imperfect.

The lower world is experienced by your ability to reason, your knowledge of how parts fit together, but God understands things from an Eternal perspective, he does not reason through things, he knows things, it is the difference between something coming into being, and that which is. To God, there is no lower, imperfect world, it is only himself, but to the lower reality created by man's perception, there appears a lower world. Man's embodiment creates this world, both as an act of nature and as an act of God. This is so because there are two types of necessity, simple, as in the existence of a primary reality, and conditional, as in the perception seen of that primary reality.

Rule 3 and 4 now.

Pain ... hmmm what of it? And what is pain is pleasure (Bondage, S&M , cutting , etc.) Is pleasure pain then or pleasure? Weird huh?

"Mind free of body would have no pain" A body free of mind wouldn't either so whats the point? Also the mind tends to gravitate towards harmful things .. not away from them. That is why we have desire. Desire for sex, drugs, fatty food , guns, war, porn , eating meat , destroying earth , a lot of bad stuff I tell you.

those desires are of the body, not the contemplative desire of the mind for liberation. A body free of a mind would have no self, thus no instrument by which it could desire anything.

Back to # 2 cause even though it was covered well ....

EVIL.!!!!!! OYG! (oh your god!) OK, Evil and well whatever you perceive to be evil exists in this world created by you god. So he creates evil and causes us to be subjected to it . hat is not perfect or benevolent. More like malicious and malevolent.

Now don't give me that free will crap argument that we "choose" evil or not. If it didn't exist or wasn't perceived no problems stemming from it would arise.

I cannot walk on 12 feet if I wanted , clap with one hand , eat cow caviar or fly a donkey (high on my list). Where is my choice in that if the means to do so does not exist? I have no choice so is that obstruction of free-will?

Why can't your "perfect" god include "know evil" on that list? We would just not be able to choose because it would never occur kinda like a car driving down a rainbow or such. OK taht is it for now.

I LOOK FORWARD TO UR REPLIES AND NICE POST!

Evil is nothing, so God does not create it. Evil actions are actions that appall us, but if we were able to see things clearly, we would not be appalled by this evil, in the same way that a doctor is not appalled by blood, but rather recognizes the signs of danger as a necessity for action. There is no evil in the world, there is only error, an error caused by a lack of intelligence, because man is not Eternal, but perpetual, his inability to see the future and to learn from the past is his error, but at any moment, he can turn towards God the Eternal and see that which his rational mind could not see, and understand that the best way of viewing the future is to understand the inherent essence of past, present, and future times. Knowing the true reality, you know that the future will be this same thing.

That knowledge is the goal of philosophy. It is a transcendental understanding that goes beyond practical matters.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
if anyone succeeds at proving god exists (to everyone else also) i hope there will be enough room in god's universe for anyone's ego and/or anyones' egos, or whatever you think the outcome may be.

bestest wishes,
et

everything would be God, so there would actually be no room for ego, the only ego would be the oneness of God, but at that point all otherness would vanish and you would see the world clearly. You would see the Self in all things, and in all things the Self, and that is the basis of compassion.

well, i always like ADDing my own TWO CENTS to the EQUATion by there's an OBTUSENESS to the SENSE USED in believing god is without error. you must realize, every being who UTILizes free will chooses (8 sideways; do you see it?) what is good or evil to them. what is good and/or evil to me might not apply to your SENSE of good and/or evil. in other words, good is whatever I want to do, evil is what I don't want to do.

this should give you a hint as to "God"'s identity. there is no rigid structure of rules to a "being" that always changes. do YOU fear ADDing CHANGE 2 YOUR LIFE? or do you welcome it?

Study hard, old soul.
Namaste

[edit on 25-7-2010 by prepared4truth]

Originally posted by prepared4truth
well, i always like ADDing my own TWO CENTS to the EQUATion by there's an OBTUSENESS to the SENSE USED in believing god is without error. you must realize, every being who UTILizes free will chooses (8 sideways; do you see it?

) what is good or evil to them. what is good and/or evil to me might not apply to your SENSE of good and/or evil. in other words, good is whatever I want to do, evil is what I don't want to do.

this should give you a hint as to "God"'s identity. there is no rigid structure of rules to a "being" that always changes. do YOU fear ADDing CHANGE 2 YOUR LIFE? or do you welcome it?

Study hard, old soul.
Namaste

[edit on 25-7-2010 by prepared4truth]

This thread is called God theory, in that I attempt to explain the ramifications of God, taken mostly from the Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius

But, the overall objective, which is to become God, can only be done by a negation of all things corporeal, and gain insight of That, the eternal witness to change.

namaste

thanks for clarifying.

i personally believe it would be harder to prove that WE are not God. we do all the things God has been witnessed to do. i witness change for as long as i live, and who is to say how long i live after "death"? i create change, among other things. i would say that we as a UNIT are God but we do not remember, and certain religions are here to help guide us to the memories; sometimes through disinformation, sometimes through blatant lessons. mediation and prayer are just methods ONE can use to UNITe with one and all.

personal beliefs though, just thought i'd put in work.

Originally posted by filosophia

OK rule 1 b... God is absolute creator and he created the universe. Everything that stems from this creation does he create? I can see imperfection in the way biological systems behave , did he create that?

What are your imperfections? Perhaps you think that a beings inability to survive harsh climates is an imperfection, but it is the role of nature to place creatures within climates they can survive, and if they were removed from this, they would die, because that is their nature. Perhaps you think that dying is an imperfection of nature, but if nothing died, there would be no change, and thus there would be no variety to nature, and hence no creations, meaning the Creator would not have a role to play.

I have more but anyways onto rule # 2!!!!

So God creates a "lower world" .... Creating something of less quality than optimal for all beings is not "perfect" nor would a "perfect" being have a part that is "lower" as you say about "God enters into this world, as a lower soul" So a part of him is lower than the other? That is not equal and both cannot be perfect either. Creating with imperfections is also imperfect.

The lower world is experienced by your ability to reason, your knowledge of how parts fit together, but God understands things from an Eternal perspective, he does not reason through things, he knows things, it is the difference between something coming into being, and that which is. To God, there is no lower, imperfect world, it is only himself, but to the lower reality created by man's perception, there appears a lower world. Man's embodiment creates this world, both as an act of nature and as an act of God. This is so because there are two types of necessity, simple, as in the existence of a primary reality, and conditional, as in the perception seen of that primary reality.

Rule 3 and 4 now.

Pain ... hmmm what of it? And what is pain is pleasure (Bondage, S&M , cutting , etc.) Is pleasure pain then or pleasure? Weird huh?

"Mind free of body would have no pain" A body free of mind wouldn't either so whats the point? Also the mind tends to gravitate towards harmful things .. not away from them. That is why we have desire. Desire for sex, drugs, fatty food , guns, war, porn , eating meat , destroying earth , a lot of bad stuff I tell you.

those desires are of the body, not the contemplative desire of the mind for liberation. A body free of a mind would have no self, thus no instrument by which it could desire anything.

Back to # 2 cause even though it was covered well ....

EVIL.!!!!!! OYG! (oh your god!) OK, Evil and well whatever you perceive to be evil exists in this world created by you god. So he creates evil and causes us to be subjected to it . hat is not perfect or benevolent. More like malicious and malevolent.

Now don't give me that free will crap argument that we "choose" evil or not. If it didn't exist or wasn't perceived no problems stemming from it would arise.

I cannot walk on 12 feet if I wanted , clap with one hand , eat cow caviar or fly a donkey (high on my list). Where is my choice in that if the means to do so does not exist? I have no choice so is that obstruction of free-will?

Why can't your "perfect" god include "know evil" on that list? We would just not be able to choose because it would never occur kinda like a car driving down a rainbow or such. OK taht is it for now.

I LOOK FORWARD TO UR REPLIES AND NICE POST!

Evil is nothing, so God does not create it. Evil actions are actions that appall us, but if we were able to see things clearly, we would not be appalled by this evil, in the same way that a doctor is not appalled by blood, but rather recognizes the signs of danger as a necessity for action. There is no evil in the world, there is only error, an error caused by a lack of intelligence, because man is not Eternal, but perpetual, his inability to see the future and to learn from the past is his error, but at any moment, he can turn towards God the Eternal and see that which his rational mind could not see, and understand that the best way of viewing the future is to understand the inherent essence of past, present, and future times. Knowing the true reality, you know that the future will be this same thing.

That knowledge is the goal of philosophy. It is a transcendental understanding that goes beyond practical matters.

Imperfection in biological systems? Here we go! Deformity /mutations , Greed , hate , Jealousy, murder , desire , sexual mishaps regarding gender , ignorance , psychological disorders , war , rape , famine . And yes they are imperfect and can be understood by understanding and is the god you espouse is that "unknowable" then quit explaining something you do know know about please.

So god does not know a lower world from a higher world yet he now "is" all of it? I see different things everywhere and is god enters or ever changes any part of himself he can no longer be perfect because perfect can only be 1 state and not another in "philisophical" thought . Perfection can never change or else it changes from perfection into something other than.


If god "knows" and has been around eternally then he cannot do anything or create other being as being imperfect because it adds imperfection to himself. Unless you wish to state everything is perfect but then you would sound like a nutcase. Also if God is eternal and indeed perfect why would he ever even let another being suffer or make a being that causes suffering? That is imperfect in creation and also malevolent. And just because he is "eternal" and "knows" doesn't make it otherwise.

For example if I know more than someone else or know more than any living being it does not give me free reign to create a world of suffering and claim I know it not? But your god "knows".


If you wish to say evil is nothing please state what good is? They both a just human intuition and moral concepts of what we do. However , if your "god" knows then he knows what we do and consider evil. That is not nice of him. Evil is in the world and is not error.... error defines mistake . If god created us , is us, and condones us then him being able to do all things and "know" means that part of him is in error. If nothing of him is error then he did not create it then he is not the creator of all things. K thx

reply to post by IamBoon


It seam that you lack the ability to distinguish God from his creation. Even though you mention it your self, that God must have created something apart from himself.

Perfection is infinity "God".

Why is the creation of our perfect God so imperfect?

This question is not that hard to answer at all.

We humans have the ability to make choices. Our choices make the creation imperfect in the sense that when we view the fruits of our labour, we look back in shame and say. This is not the world i had in mind.

The world that we see before us is not the product of a perfect God, but the product of human sacrifice. The world that you see before you is based on human virtues and dreams.

Our choices dont make us imperfect. Not at All, because we have the ability to make,,,,The right choices and the wrong choices.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by spy66


Perfection is hardly defined as "infinity" and infinity hardly defines "God" .
If god is infinite there is not end to him and IS everything INCLUDING creation. Or else he is not "infinity" because has a limit.

By your logic I can create a bomb and set it under YOUR house and set the timer. You cannot blame me for this act because I am not my creation .
This is flawed and redundant logic to say the least.

If you create something it is an extension of yourself . If it harms others that extension is malevolent. If it is good then benevolent. If god created our "reality" this makes him both and therefore imperfect. If he has the POWER TO CHANGE things for the BETTER and fails he is also negligent and a mass murderer. If he knows EVERYTHING then he cannot change his mind for he already knows and Change is imperfect by definition.

It seems YOU fail to comprehend basic logic sets due to belief and reject them due to fear or ignorance. If god is perfect he is unchanging , unknowable , and free of the reality we call ours.

If he is loving he either loves us and cannot help or he can help and doesn't meaning he is hating.

If he created then he changed or made.. making him unable to be perfect . If he didn't create then he is a product of creation and therefore not eternal.

Simple logical constructs learn them. If god is unknowable then cease to try . If he is knowable and doesn't make himself evident in a perfect , understandable manner he is either mute or unable not to mention neglectful or just not interested.

And if you are going to assert that this world is made from our "hopes" and "dreams" Then you sir have some really bad goals in life and should seek psychiatric therapy quickly because I can see a million ways this place is neither a hope or dream of mine.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by IamBoon]

While many may attempt to offer a proof of God, the first literal, testable, immutable proof of God for faith is already on the web as the first wholly new interpretation for two thousand years of the Gospel of Christ. Quoting from a review:

"Using a synthesis of scriptural material drawn from the Old and New Testaments, the Apocrypha , The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Nag Hammadi Library, and some of the world's great poetry, just as in the beginning, it describes and teaches a single moral Law, a single moral principle, a single test of faith, offering the Promise of its own proof; one in which the reality and will of God responds directly to an act of perfect faith with a individual intervention into the natural world; 'raising' up the man, correcting human nature by a change in natural law, altering biology, consciousness and human ethical perception beyond all natural evolutionary boundaries. Intended to be understood metaphorically, where 'death' and darkness are ignorance and 'Life' and light are knowledge,  this personal experience of  transcendent power and moral purpose is our 'Resurrection', and justification for faith. Here, on a perfectly objective foundation of moral principle and virtue, true morality and 'Life' begins."

So the reality now is that a proof that meets the Enlightenment criteria of verifiable, direct cause and effect, evidence based truth embodied in experience. For the first time in history, however unexpected, the world must consider the implications of a new claim to revealed truth, a moral tenet not of human intellectual origin, offering access by faith, to absolute proof, an objective basis for moral principle and a fully rational and justifiable belief! 

Revolutionary stuff for those who test this material out for themselves? Go ahead and change the course of history. Check it out at www.energon.org.uk...

As much as I am now haunting a dead post, I do want to make a few points:

1) The experience of pain is explicable through evolutionary terms: with form comes to potential for damage to form, with a resultant reduction of fitness (or reproductive capabilities) --> those which can detect damage or likely damage before it significantly reduces fitness, and thus reproductive capabilities, will reproduce more than those who do not, and thus should such capabilities (i.e. a nervous system) arise, they will tend to be favoured. In complex nervous systems where, possibly through adaptive mechanisms, simple reflex arcs (e.g. knee-jerk response to stimulation of patella nerve, withdrawal from hot objects, etc.) can be overridden, a cue to indicate that harm is imminent is required --> we feel pain to stop us from going "hmm, my hand is attempting to move away from the bright, sparkly piece of wood. I do not see the purpose of allowing it to do so, so I shall not", as such behaviour would rapidly render us... dead.

2) Why does "God" (and thus his creation) have to be good to be perfect? Unless good is defined as our perception of what is godly, and thus any god would epitomise true (=perfect) goodness, I cannot understand how perfection demands goodness. Indeed, while (non-adaptive) altruism (doing something to the benefit of another at an overall cost to yourself) is often used as a distinction between consciously acting individuals and unconsciously acting individuals (although I doubt the Descartesian concept that other animals are machines of instinct and instead consider the Darwinian concept that we are unusual not in possessing consciousness, but in the extent to which we possess it), spite - doing something at a cost to another with no overall benefits to yourself - is similarly confined to 'higher' organisms (excluding cases of reciprocal altruism/spite and benefits through kin selection).

3) Biological imperfections - while rape, war, famine etc are definitely big-money tickets for the whole "god is apathetic to our fate" argument, wouldn't the appendix - a remnant version of the caecum of our hind-gut digesting relatives, performing no positive function but occasionally rupturing and killing us - be a better example of something worthless/of negative value that is retained without a root cause in human error?

4) Someone referred to agnosticism as a way to avoid thinking about such complex issues as the divine, but wouldn't this be more typical of atheism? Agnosticism typically represents a failure to reject a significant majority of religious hypothesis, rather than a failure to accept any.

I think that's it. And I realise that it's written in pretentious, pseudo-academic prose, but that's that.

The existence of the Ineffable cannot be proved with words.

The existence of the Cosmic Life religions call "God" can be proved in a public way only with that universal language known as "mathematics."

The most mathematically rigorous and convincing evidence for transcendental design is, in my opinion, provided by the website:
smphillips.8m.com...
Spend the next six months studying its revelations. They will blow your mind away and you will start to understand the true nature of religion and God.

What's delicious about this discussion is that it's been discussed before, several thousand years ago in Egypt:

The Creator Created Himself (or always existed): Atum, the main god-name given to the Creator God you speak of, "appeared" in the void but was never created. Perhaps He was the void. He then beget the divine forces, and then the lesser ones. His very essence is creation. I am pretty sure that this is why a lot of people consider sex sacred, because we with our bodies-driven by instinct arising either from bodily need or the longing of the soul-are engaging in the essence of God. In fact, the Egyptians knew this so well that they likened Atum's creation of the first lesser gods as Atum's masturbation.

The difference between the "evil" that we perceive and true "evil":
Set, the God of Chaos, can be perceived as evil at first. However, what the "god" Set truly represents is Chaos and destruction. Chaos and destruction are necessary to clear the way for new life, which means that this "evil" is an agent of Creation, and therefore good. In this context the ancient Egyptians did not perceive Set as true evil, though to the individual being destroyed, he would see it that way. True evil is represented by the demon Apophis, whose sole desire is to "swallow the sun" and end all existance, returning the universe to a state of nothingness. The nothingness is the true evil, which loops way back to page one of this discussion.

So much credit is given to other cultures, namely the Greeks. But the Greeks in many instances failed to quote their source. All of these discussions were first recorded in ancient Egypt. When Egypt was ravaged, the Greeks came and suddenly there was a huge spark of intellectual achievements pouring forth from the Greeks, namely those who studied in Egypt. The knowledge of Egypt was brought to Alexandria, and "conicidentally" burned down by the Romans, who went on to dominate the world for a time. The Romans were also the first to dismiss the philosophy and religion of Egypt as a religion of Beasts, and this nonsensical dismissal still influences people to this day. But when you examine the religion and philosophy of Egypt, it is almost exactly what is being discussed here.

What you see before you is the manisfestation (image) of God.
What sees this manisfestation is God.
God is the all seeing, all knowing presence.
God is the projector of the image and God sees the image.
There is nothing else.

God is being.
To be or not to be? That is the question.

reply to post by IamBoon

Perfection is hardly defined as "infinity" and infinity hardly defines "God" .

If it is hardly a perfection. Than what is more perfect than the infinite?
It is absolutely everything.

You cannot mention one thing that is not related to it. Because what ever it is; it can not have something the infinite dosent have.

If god is infinite there is not end to him and IS everything INCLUDING creation. Or else he is not "infinity" because has a limit.

That is correct. God/the infinite is everything even he's own creation. If not where would the infinite/God get he's creation from?

If you create something it is an extension of yourself .

If the infinite creates something, it must be of it self. Because there are no external source to create from.

If it harms others that extension is malevolent. If it is good then benevolent. If god created our "reality" this makes him both and therefore imperfect. If he has the POWER TO CHANGE things for the BETTER and fails he is also negligent and a mass murderer. If he knows EVERYTHING then he cannot change his mind for he already knows and Change is imperfect by definition.

We humans/you dont know the moral code. We have no clue about what is truly good and what is truly evil. Our moral code is built on our own set of rules and regulations. You base your opinion on God, based on our own rules and regulations. Which are discriminating and unfair to humanity as a whole.

It seems YOU fail to comprehend basic logic sets due to belief and reject them due to fear or ignorance. If god is perfect he is unchanging , unknowable , and free of the reality we call ours.

Well that makes two than: We are also blinded and lost in our own reality.