What Hamas doesn't want the world to see.

reply to post by Mobius1974


I just don't know...
I read your post, I like thinking that the Gaza strip is better off than turkey in terms of literacy and quality of life, but I just don't know...

I live closer than anyone in the forum to it, and I have no idea..

I wish I could just go in there and sort this out.. Just see what it's like..
I don't care about convincing other posters here, that would be pointless, I just want to know for myself.

I suspect that this mall does serve the rich elite, but I think the issue is not who it serves, but rather how come a luxury mall was built in a time where most people supposedly haven't got enough building materials to build homes? This is either a very poor decision, or proof that the situation in the Gaza strip is exaggerated.. I'm not sure to what extent, but I assume it's not a very big one.

Anyway, just thought I'd give my opinion..

reply to post by Mobius1974


First and foremost, please don't use my signature (--airspoon) outside of a quote, I would appreciate it.

Moving along, I have actually worked along the Gaza border (in a semi-security role) and I have seen with my own eyes what is going on.

Most Palestinians will never see the inside of a mall and that's just a fact. There is a mall, restaurant, and hotel I believe that could be considered nice, but these things are mostly for the diplomats and journalists who travel to Gaza. Most Palestinians don't even have the basic life sustaining supplies to continue on and it's solely because of Israel. Israel has been confiscating land, demolishing homes, confiscating homes and personal property such as vehicles and completely controlling what gets through and what doesn't.

The Palestinians aren't even allowed to use the same roads as the high and mighty Israelis.

Being Jewish myself, I have had it instilled in me when I was younger about how the Palestinian people are only but an obstacle to god's will. It was also instilled in me that the Temple would be rebuilt in my own lifetime and god was going to see that we could accomplish that. These Zionists don't see the Palestinians as people just trying to live a life, they believe that it is god's will to destroy them or get them out of the way, in an effort to achieve a whole Israel.

Did they have ID's that said ZIONIST across the top?

No, but the illegal settlers are Zionists. I suggest you look up what Zionism is. If the illegal Zionist settlers decide to settle in or near a Palestinian home or town, then that Palestinian home or town is done. They don't care what happens to the families that they oust. Try to protest and you will be killed.

What if someone came to your home one day and told you to leave because your home is now going to be the home of someone else. You take too long in walking out the door and you will get a rifle butt across the head. Then you pack your family in the car to go stay with a friend, only to realize that have either confiscated your vehicle, or smashed and burned it. So, you set out on foot. You pass probably on average five make-shift check points, each time being kicked or laughed at and then your son gets detained because the guard at the checkpoint didn't like the look on his face. You never know if or when you will ever see him again.

This scenario plays out almost every single day, only multiplied by the thousands.

Harmless? I have always looked at your posts as intelligent.. I have never read a post and had it change my view of a member so fast.

Yes, relatively harmless. Palestinian rockets very few Israelis. The Palestinian people have little means to fight back. Israel is going to continue their policies against them, irregardless of whether they fight back or not, as they are an obstacle to the ultimate Zionist goal of a whole and complete Israel, to include the rebuilding of the Tempe. What would you do if some foreign invader comes to your land and tries to extinguish your way of life, terrorizing your family and community, the whole time citing their religion for doing so? Would you fight, or passively watch everything happen? I would hope to think that everyone would fight for their very existence.

Every rocket is a response to a Israeli offenses?
Now which one of us was the one that was listening to the media propaganda?

I think that would be you. In fact, Israeli offenses occur every day, while the rockets don't. Tell me, why on earth would they send the rockets, if not as response to Israeli aggression? They pay heavy consequences for these rockets, but they will pay regardless. When the Palestinians get a chance to strike back, they take it, as any proud and freedom loving adult would do. Remember, it was Israeli aggression that happened first. The rockets are merely the only way for the Palestinians to fight back the inevitable Israeli goal.

I have stated SEVERAL times that Israel is not innocent in my mind...

You obviously don't understand the magnitude of the situation. If your neighbor came to your house, raped your wife, beat your kids and took your valuables, yet you fired your weapon in response, would you be at fault for the situation? Would both you and your neighbor share responsibility? What if, in response to you firing your weapon, your neighbor then started to prevent anyone in your household from going to the market, watching TV and having visitors or leaving the house? They then start to restrict your movement from within your own home. You want to use the bathroom? You have to get permission and stand in line. Would it be okay to blame you for shooting at someone much stronger? Would you not take any chance you could to fight this big bad neighbor?

But your view is hysterical... Hamas/Palestinians are tree hugging, peace loving people that want nothing more then to have the big bad israel stop picking on them...

Yes, I stand by that claim. Time and time again, the Palestinian people have sewed for peace, only to have Israel break that peace agreement. It is more clear than ever that Israel does not want peace. Why would they? This conflict doesn't effect them negatively that much at all. In fact, the Israelis are the only ones who have motive to continue this fight. The Palestinians don't get anything out of it. Why on earth would they want this to continue? On the other hand, Israel wants this to continue as they are getting plenty from it. Every rocket that comes over the proverbial fence gets all kinds of media attention while the much larger Israeli offensive is almost completely unknown by Americans, the people who finance and supply the Israeli offensive. The more they convince America that Palestinians equal terrorists, the more wide-spread and unabated killing they can do. The more settling they can do. In time, as long as they keep their iron grip over the media, they will be able to take back East Jerusalem and rebuild the temple.

In fact, before the Zionist aggression, the Jews and Muslims were very friendly. They would watch each other's children and eat in each other's homes. Then came the Zionist agenda that didn't have room for the Palestinians and the oppression started. The rest is history.

The moral of the story? When proud, freedom loving people are terrorized and oppressed, they fight back. They are not the ones initiating force, rather they are responding to it. Airspoon's law of politics: To every action there is a reaction, though not always equal. Whoever initiates the force, is responsible for that force, irregardless of the response. If someone is killing you and you take their life instead, it was not your fault and you should not be held responsible for their consequences.

I guess it is impossible to inject logic into a completely illogical thought process.

Tell me about it. Thank you for pointing that out, I just hope that you may one day realize this so that logic may dictate your response, or so we could only hope. You are getting your information from what you read on the internet, while I have actually experienced it.

I have no ulterior motive here. I have nothing to gain by posting my experiences. I am simply pointing out wrongs. I wish nothing more for this all to be not true, but my wishes are not reality. I am going against my own people, religion and indoctrination by speaking out about this. My only motive, is to point out "wrongs" when I see them, irregardless of who commits those "wrongs".

This not only affects Israelis and Palestinians. It affects Americans too. We are being taxed to support this Israeli offensive, which ultimately means that this is being done in our name. We are hated because of our blind support of Israel. In fact, many analysts agree that this is the number one reason for Islamic extremism against American interests. Not only is our security compromised because if this, but we are being defrauded into paying for this.

Some day, I can only hope that you too (and others) will shed your indoctrination and the layers upon layers of beliefs being given to you by the various media outlets and decide to actually research this conflict further, on your own. It is only then that you will see the truth, thus allowing you to use logic in your conclusions as to what's happening. Better yet, I dare you to travel there, see what's happening. Don't just go to the tourists spots, speak to Jews, Muslims and visit Gaza or the West Bank. Contrary to popular belief, you won't be held hostage or even harmed by the Palestinians, though I couldn't say the same about the Israelis. You have a much better chance at being held against you will or even harmed by the Israelis, especially if you look Arabic. Regardless, seek the truth and go beyond the propaganda in your research and only then will you even come close to the truth.

--airspoon

reply to post by Mobius1974


Begins Admission in 1982 That Israel Started Three of Its Wars

By Donald Neff

It was 12 years ago when Prime Minister Menachem Begin admitted in public that Israel had fought three wars in which it had a "choice," meaning Israel started the wars. Begin's admission came in a speech delivered on Aug. 8, 1982, before the Israeli National Defense College. His purpose was to defuse mounting criticism of Israel's invasion of Lebanon, which had begun two months earlier on June 5 and was clearly one of Israel's wars of "choice." The others were in 1956 and 1967.

At the time of Begin's speech, the Israeli siege of Muslim West Beirut was already five weeks old. Israeli U.S.-made aircraft were launching daily air strikes and hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians throughout the country were being killed, wounded, starved, terrorized and uprooted from their homes, most of them by munitions made in America. On July 29, the United Nations Security Council demanded that Israel lift its siege. Only the United States abstained in the 14-0 vote.1 When Israel refused, the council voted again on Aug. 4 to censure Israel with a vote of 14-0, with the U.S. again abstaining.2 On Aug. 6, the United States exercised its veto to block a council resolution condemning Israel's occupation practices, the sixth time in 1982 the Reagan administration had used the veto to shield Israel from international criticism.3

Despite the Reagan administration's lonely support of Israel, there was increasing disillusionment within Israel itself at the terrible toll being inflicted on Lebanese civilians. An estimated 10,000 Israelis had already staged a protest rally in Tel Aviv as early as June 26.4 Another hundred thousand Israelis demonstrated against Begin's government on July 3 under the banner of Peace Now. Other antiwar groups—Yesh Givul (There is a Limit), Soldiers Against Silence, Parents Against Silence—soon sprang up as the siege continued.5

The anti-war mood increased when Israeli Colonel Eli Geva, head of an elite armored brigade involved in Israel's invasion of Lebanon, resigned his commission in July to protest the siege of Beirut. It was the first time that a senior Israeli officer had ever resigned in protest during any of Israel's wars .6 When Prime Minister Begin asked Geva why he had refused to continue in the siege, the tankman replied that he could see children when he looked through his binoculars into Beirut. "Did you receive an order to kill children?" snapped Begin. No, said Geva. "Then what are you complaining about?" demanded the prime minister. 7 Yesh Givul became the strongest of the groups, with 2,000 reservists eventually signing a petition not to serve in Lebanon; 150 of them were court martialed.8

In his speech to Israeli security experts on Aug. 8, the prime minister sought to counter these growing anti-war protests by enlisting the military's support. His method was to link the unpopular war in Lebanon with Israel's triumphant victories in 1956 and 1967, which he was careful to point out were also wars of "choice." Now, Begin said, Israel was involved in another war of choice that would finally bring victorious peace.

reply to post by Mobius1974


Excerpts from Begin's speech:

"The Second World War, which broke out on Sept. 1, 1939, actually began on March 7, 1936. If only France, without Britain (which had some excellent combat divisions), had attacked the aggressor, there would have remained no trace of Nazi German power and a war which, in three years, changed the whole of human history, would have been prevented. This, therefore, is the international example that explains what is war without choice, or a war of one's choosing.

"Let us turn from the international example to ourselves. Operation Peace for Galilee [the Israeli name for the invasion of Lebanon] is not a military operation resulting from the lack of an alternative. The terrorists did not threaten the existence of the state of Israel; they 'only' threatened the lives of Israel's citizens and members of the Jewish people. There are those who find fault with the second part of that sentence. If there was no danger to the existence of the state, why did you go to war?

"I will explain why: We had three wars which we fought without an alternative. The first, the war of independence, which began on Nov. 30, 1947 and lasted until January 1949. What happened in that war, which we went off to fight with no alternative? Six thousand of our fighters were killed. We were then 650,000 Jews in Eretz Israel, and the number fallen amounted to about 1 percent of the Jewish population.

"The second war of no alternative was the Yom Kippur War and the war of attrition that preceded it. Our total casualties in that war of no alternative were 2,297 killed, 6,067 wounded. Together with the war of attrition—which was also a war of no alternative—2,659 killed, 7,251 wounded. The terrible total: almost 10,000 casualties.

"Our other wars were not without an alternative. In November 1956 we had a choice. The reason for going to war then was the need to destroy the fedayeen, who did not represent a danger to the existence of the state. Thus we went off to the Sinai campaign. At that time we conquered most of the Sinai Peninsula and reached Sharm el Sheikh. Actually, we accepted and submitted to an American dictate, mainly regarding the Gaza Strip (which Ben-Gurion called 'the liberated portion of the homeland'). John Foster Dulles, the then-secretary of state, promised Ben-Gurion that an Egyptian army would not return to Gaza. The Egyptian army did enter Gaza .... After 1957, Israel had to wait 10 full years for its flag to fly again over that liberated portion of the homeland.

"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. This was a war of self-defense in the noblest sense of the term. The Government of National Unity then established decided unanimously: we will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation.

"As for the Operation Peace for Galilee [the invasion of Lebanon], it does not really belong to the category of wars of no alternative. We could have gone on seeing our civilians injured in Metulla or Qiryat Shimona or Nahariya. We could have gone on countering those killed by explosive charges left in a Jerusalem supermarket, or a Petah Tikvah bus stop. All the orders to carry out these acts of murder and sabotage came from Beirut .... True, such actions were not a threat to the existence of the state. But they did threaten the lives of civilians. whose numbers we cannot estimate, day after day, week after week, month after month....

"I—we—can already look beyond the fighting. It will soon be over, we hope, and then I believe, indeed I know, we will have a long period of peace. There is no other country around us that is capable of attacking us."9

In reality, it took nearly three more years before Israel was able to disengage its forces. On the third anniversary of the invasion, after suffering 610 dead, Israel withdrew most of its forces from Lebanon, leaving a residual team of about 2,000 combat troops to retain control of a "security belt" in southern Lebanon. The occupied land amounted to nine percent of Lebanon's territory, adding yet several hundred square miles more to the list of Arab land Israel had expanded on since 1948.10

They admit the surrounding countries aren't capable of attacking

link for this article i found
www.wrmea.com...

also another nice link about the wars in wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 20-7-2010 by DutchBigBoy]

reply to post by DutchBigBoy


Do you have any Idea who Donald Neff is, or his motivation?

Maybe you should look at his "works" before trying to prove a point... nearly 100% of his articales are anti-israel.

Go do another google/bind search and use a more credible source.

This mans life ambition is to demonize Israel. He is involved with several pro-palestinian organizations.

reply to post by airspoon


You are a very intelligent man.. I have to look into this more with an open mind... You have some very good points.. and you are right.. I have not been there, and the only knowledge I have is from reading.

I simply have not seen the nicer side of palestine... I thought it was as you had posted in your previous thread. So to me.. this was a new development. I do not have much time invested in this.

As to using the ---airspoon... Your smart enough to know that was a simple mistake.(that I corrected immediatly) . So, your chest puffing over it.. flip off!

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Mobius1974]

reply to post by DutchBigBoy


Capable is an opinion...
Were they capable during the 6 day war? Didn't stop them then!

reply to post by DutchBigBoy



"As for the Operation Peace for Galilee [the invasion of Lebanon], it does not really belong to the category of wars of no alternative. We could have gone on seeing our civilians injured in Metulla or Qiryat Shimona or Nahariya. We could have gone on countering those killed by explosive charges left in a Jerusalem supermarket, or a Petah Tikvah bus stop. All the orders to carry out these acts of murder and sabotage came from Beirut .... True, such actions were not a threat to the existence of the state. But they did threaten the lives of civilians. whose numbers we cannot estimate, day after day, week after week, month after month....

Dutchboy.... Did you even read this?? You should take notes from Airspoon.. He is using facts and experience.. You are copying and pasting articles... That, ironicly enough prove you wrong and solidify my point made to you.

Wow.... there is no way you could have read all of that.. You read the title, and assumed the article mirrored the spun title.



[edit on 20-7-2010 by Mobius1974]

reply to post by Mobius1974


Yes i have read all of it and my conclusion to all of it is that israel provoked more then 50% of its wars

1948 it was their indepence war
1956 the sanai war, an attack on egypt
after the 6 day war they were attacked in 2 different wars to regain the lost territory
1982 1st lebanon war started by israel
2006 2nd lebanon war started to free 2 soldiers by israel

if i have left out a war please let me know, in my honest opinion is israel in 4 of the 7 wars the aggressor.

A strictly technical comment:

The "mall" in the OP appears to be a very modest establishment, likes of which are found in many third world countries. Having a pile of plastic toys in colorful packaging inside a bodega does not a luxury life make.

I have never seen so much rancor when it comes to the Israeli versus Palestinian posts on this site. I am firmly on the Israeli side, but it's pointless to argue with those who aren't because so many of them are driven by other agendas. I don't agree that having a mall means much. Sure, the Palestinians and Muslim extremists are exaggerating their plight. They always have and it's part of the Jihadi playbook.

However, if the Palestinians were not fighting with the Israelis and Israel never existed, then the Palestinians probably would have been virtually exterminated by now by the Jordanians or other Arab countries. Right now, they are just the tools of those countries, which have never treated them well either.

I found this interesting about the foreign aid that is being sent to the Palestinians and Hamas. Ok now this is coming from Salam Fayyad. Here is just a little of what he said.I will post a link to the whole article.

A former World Bank official who is about to become the Palestinian finance minister has warned foreign donors that he has no idea where much of their money has been spent.

In the 14 months since Hamas won elections, Palestinian finances have descended into such chaos that there is now no way to confirm whether aid is going to its stated purpose, according to Salam Fayyad, 54, who is poised to start his second stint as treasury chief once the rival Hamas and Fatah factions finalise a "unity" government.

An estimated £362.5 million has flowed into Palestinian government coffers from abroad since the election that brought Hamas to power and ushered in a period of internal conflict that came close to all-out civil war.

Now, Palestinian Authority spending is out of control, salaries are being paid to workers who never turn up, and nobody can track where the money is going, according to Mr Fayyad.

Here is the link to the article.
www.telegraph.co.uk...
sn
I wonder where did this money go if it isn't going to the people. In fact here is something else I found interesting and thought I would share.

The Obama Administration’s March 2 pledge of $900 million (see “The $900 Million U.S. Pledge
and the International Donors’ Effort” below) and its April supplemental budget request, which have called for additional FY2009 appropriations to the accounts from which UNRWA contributions are made, could meet with increased scrutiny if there is a perception that resourcesfrom UNRWA or other international organizations are used (with or without organizationalcomplicity) to strengthen Hamas or to frustrate Israeli objectives.
In February 2009, not long after the cessation of major hostilities in Gaza, Hamas confiscated shipments of UNRWA humanitarian supplies at gunpoint on two separate occasions. UNRWA responded by suspending the shipment of additional goods into Gaza until the supplies were returned. Hamas eventually did return the supplies, and UNRWA resumed aid shipment.
It does seem the PA and Hamas are not using these funds the way they should be. Now could be a reason why we do not see the better parts of Gaza. By only showing the worst part of Gaza the foreibn aid will still come in by the millions. So it is plausible that Hamas is not going to show the better living areas.I am not supporting either side in this Israel/Palestinian conflict.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by tsurfer2000h]