Bible quiz time people

Originally posted by Leonardo01
reply to post by queenannie38

 

I would like you to elaborate on this as "satan" is actually a title given to various entities in the bible.

i didn't say it was a title given to various entities, just that it is a title, not a name.
it is actually ha'Satan - meaning the accuser or adversary. i'm sure you've heard this before. it also means something along the lines of what we modernly refer to as a prosecuting attorney.

if man is on trial, then there must be a prosecutor, if we consider Jesus the defense lawyer and GOD the judge, then ha'Satan is the District Attorney.
you see?

Where does it state that "satan' is actually the "anger of god"?

in the old testament, the 2 books of Samuel tell the same story as the 2 books of Chronicles, by two different authors. i don't know the details of who the authors might have been, which doesn't really matter in regard to the issue at hand. the following are from the KJV:

1 Chronicles 21:1-4:

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (2) And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. (3) And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel? (4) Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.

2 Samuel 24:1-4

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (2) For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people. (3) And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing? (4) Notwithstanding the king's word prevailed against Joab, and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel.

both of those passages are an account of the same event - the first census of Israel under King David. it is the first verse in both that is KEY, but i included the following 3 verses of each to show that the two accounts are indeed telling the same story, but by two different hands.

in Samuel, it is "the anger of the Lord" that moves David to do something he knows good and well he isn't supposed to do.
in Chronicles, it is "satan" that moves David to do the very same thing.
GOD is mad at Israel in both cases and the result is the census, both times, executed by Joab.

so, yes, classically, "satan" tempted David and David bit.
but this is not some rogue agent of heaven who broke off to do his own thing...this entity/being/whatever is obviously working with GOD for the same purpose.

this is clear in the book of Job.
and in the end, for all the trouble Job had, he wound up way better off - had more stuff and a family again and best of all, was wiser for the experience and hadn't fallen to the temptation of his friends to rail against GOD for his misfortune. Job never mentions "satan," himself, either. and "satan" did not disobey GOD, either - he played strictly according to the guidelines GOD set out from the get-go.

but if "satan" hadn't of proposed to GOD what he did, at the very beginning of the story, Job wouldn't have gained in the way that he had, by the end.

sure, it was a long and harrowing journey in between, but that's part of it.
the main idea of that long book is found in the first and last chapters, and it doesn't show an adversary that hates us or is jealous or wants to see us destroyed - or even one that seeks to usurp GOD.

it does show "satan" as law-abiding as well as being bestowed certain power from GOD, with approval upon how it might be used.

reply to post by whatukno


where does it say that, in the bible?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
We were given free will, no other created being has this capacity.

what about the Angels?

they are created
they have the ability to choose and/or decide their own actions - which is free will

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

obviously these angels chose to leave their own habitation, their first estate - if they had no choice in the matter and still left, then why would they be waiting in prison to see the judge?

from the same book, Michael also obviously makes his own decisions:

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

since Michael dared NOT to rail against his opponent in the contest over the bones of Moses, then obviously he also could have dared TO DO what he dared not doing.

if these actions were not brought out of fully free-willed thinking mind, then they wouldn't mean anything at all and Jude wouldn't have mentioned them.

also, in the story of Lot's escape from Sodom and Gomorrah, at first the two angels tell him to flee to the mountains but Lot said "that's too far!"
so then they told him to flee to Zoar, which was actually Lot's idea, and not theirs. they just condoned his request, which indicates they had respect for Lot's will and their response was also one that would come from free will.

if they had only one course of action, decreed by GOD, then i daresay either it would not be subject to revision; or, if it were, surely there would be something written that would indicate there was a huddle to discuss the next play...but there isn't.

even stepping outside the bible to the christian theology of Lucifer wanting to be bigger than GOD (or whatever got him evicted), and then 1/3 of the angels defected with him, indicates that those angels could choose to stay or go and for that matter, Lucifer could have decided not to be so ambitious and instead be happy with his already elevated status in heaven - which, according to some versions, was that of the very first chair after GOD's.

even the fallacies support the idea that both angels and men have free will.

animals certainly have free will, too - this is unrelated to instinct and behavior as a species.

my dog comes when i call her but not always - and when she doesn't obey, if it isn't a matter of not having her attention, and she KNOWS what i want her to do but doesn't do it, i can almost feel her small defiance for whatever reason.

it doesn't happen often, she's a very smart dog and minds me awesomely well, but she definitely has free will.

reply to post by queenannie38


It's in the back, check Revelations.

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Revelation 12:7-9)

Ah the story of the great celestial civil war. Many angels died, and Michael was the one that cast his brother Lucifer down.

All according to Gods master plan, it's big douchy master plan.

Originally posted by whatukno
It's in the back, check Revelations.

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Revelation 12:7-9)

Ah the story of the great celestial civil war. Many angels died, and Michael was the one that cast his brother Lucifer down.

it doesn't say Lucifer.

it says "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan"

"Lucifer" as translated by St. Jerome is found only one place, in Isaiah, and is not associated in any fashion with a dragon or any of those other labels found in Revelation; and nothing is mentioned about deception in connection with Lucifer, either.

neither does it say that many angels died.

I have a few questions that I hope that the "enlightened" ones will answer:

How did the creator come into existence in the first place? /op/

how we supposed to know/ thats god to know and us to find out. but its nothing to rebel agianst. weak understanding causes rebellion. we will find out after death.







The holy bible sorta confuses me, I mean in the old testament god is shown to be a badass punishing nasty evil humans but in the new testament he is shown to be loving, benevolent and all.

Which one is real and what do ya suppose the reasons for the radical makeover? /op/

they are both real. the writers in the op were writing without snactifying grace of communion. things seemed nastier more ruthless. but there are TONS of loving passages in the ot including the commandment of loving our enemies. god is a parent and will punish, and we dont know the hearts of men back then. when we die god will show you everything he did in the ot and why. it does seem different but if you read closely its not really.




Why would god place such a wuss "humans" at the zenith of his creation? Also why did he not grant us awesome lighting powers or something? /op/

says you? what makes them wusses? they didnt have black glasses on smoking sigs and say get er done enough?



More will follow....for the moment I will leave you to chew on this.

(Note:I am looking for objective answers and I do not wish to attack anyone's beliefs...thank you)


you're very sincere. i love that. peace op.

oh btw i noticed you qouted 'enlightened one'

and then said.

' i dont wish to attack anyones beliefs. '

watch how you word stuff.

other than that it was a sincere post imo.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
says you? what makes them wusses? they didnt have black glasses on smoking sigs and say get er done enough?

huh!

i like that!

reply to post by queenannie38


If I were you, I wouldn't take the bible too literally.

Remember the bible was written by man, men tend to screw things up. You know, like not putting certain truths in, like how angels can be killed, how Lucifer Morningstar is Satan and The Devil, the Dragon, etc.

Like this, why would angels fight each other if they couldn't be killed? (you know, like when the big G is going to destroy Lucifer in the end) What would be the point? Angels aren't nice things, they are pissed off cans of whoop ass. They don't like humans, they barely can stand each other.



[edit on 7/22/2010 by whatukno]

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by queenannie38

 

It's in the back, check Revelations.

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Revelation 12:7-9)

Ah the story of the great celestial civil war. Many angels died, and Michael was the one that cast his brother Lucifer down.

All according to Gods master plan, it's big douchy master plan.

Dude, the great war in heaven is a FUTURE war during the Tribulation. Satan has not yet been thrown to Earth, he still comes and goes freely from Earth to the throne of God to this day. because the Bible also declares that he is the "accuser", that he accuses the saints of God before God daily.

That is also why it says in Revelation after satan is thrown out "Woe to the Earth, for the great dragon is thrown down to earth and is full of great wrath for he knows his time is short.." (Paraphrase)

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by queenannie38

 

If I were you, I wouldn't take the bible too literally.

Remember the bible was written by man, men tend to screw things up. You know, like not putting certain truths in, like how angels can be killed, how Lucifer Morningstar is Satan and The Devil, the Dragon, etc.

Like this, why would angels fight each other if they couldn't be killed? (you know, like when the big G is going to destroy Lucifer in the end) What would be the point? Angels aren't nice things, they are pissed off cans of whoop ass. They don't like humans, they barely can stand each other.

Satan is MOST definitely NOT the "Morning Star" That is one of the names for Jesus Christ. Perverted versions of the Bible remove the only mention of the word "Lucifer' from the Bible (Isaiah) and replace it with a term Jesus Christ uses for Himself from Revelation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Ok, first, time on the other side doesn't work the same as time does here. Imagine if you will that time didn't exist, isn't linear, there is no future, no past, no NOW. SO, the great civil war where Lucifer is cast down from heaven by Michael has already happened, is happening, will happen, all at the same time.

Second...

Lucifer is a Latin word (from the words lucem ferre), literally meaning "light-bearer", which in that language is used as a name for the dawn appearance of the planet Venus, heralding daylight. Use of the word in this sense is uncommon in English, in which "Day Star" or "Morning Star" are more common expressions.

In English, "Lucifer" generally refers to the Devil, although the name is not applied to him in the New Testament. The use of the name "Lucifer" in reference to a fallen angel stems from an interpretation of Isaiah 14:3–20, a passage that speaks of a particular Babylonian King, to whom it gives a title that refers to what in English is called the Day Star or Morning Star (in Latin, lucifer),[2] as fallen or destined to fall from the heavens or sky.[3] In 2 Peter 1:19 and elsewhere, the same Latin word lucifer is used to refer to the Morning Star, with no relation to the devil. However, in post-New Testament times the Latin word Lucifer has often been used as a name for the devil, both in religious writing and in fiction.

en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 7/22/2010 by whatukno]

reply to post by whatukno


There is a specific reason the 1611 KJV is called the "Authorized Version", modern translations are all derived from the Westcott and Hort Greek mss perversion. The KJV is the only English translation taken from the Textus Receptus Greek mss.


"Going into the Masoretic Hebrew text, in Isaiah 14:12..... O Lucifer[01966](heylel), son[01121](ben) of the morning[07837](shachar)

Using Strongs concordance and the lexicon

01966 heylel [hay-lale']

from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m

AV - Lucifer 1; 1

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

Whenever you change a word using dynamic equivalence there must be EXTREME care to maintain the integrity of the verse. One can commit blasphemy of the LORD unknowingly without doing careful study.
Referring to the Book of Job, which was written long long before the Book of Isaiah was written, the point for this discussion specifically outlines that the Hebrew word for "morning star" existed long before Isaiah. Strong's #01966 Lucifer occurs ONCE in the entire Old Testament. Once. The words morning star are used throughout the both the Old and New Testament. The uniqueness of Isaiah 14:12 is that Lucifer WAS his name, then became Satan when he fell."

Here


[edit on 22-7-2010 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by NOTurTypical


As I said, Lucifer Morningstar. Lucifer was Gods favorite winged bitch till God came up with man. God then told the angels they had to obey man, Lucifer said [snip] that! and rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels with him and tried to take over. That was the first civil war in heaven. Then Michael cast Lucifer down.




[edit on 7/22/2010 by whatukno]

Originally posted by whatukno
If I were you, I wouldn't take the bible too literally.

well, but you're not me.
you can make up your stories if you like but they don't make sense to me.

i like logic and consistency - it doesn't have to be according to the ways of the material world but it does have to make sense.

anyway, though, this isn't about taking the bible literally, either, just using it as the yardstick for the sake of this particular discussion and the questions asked by the OP.

maybe you will recall the name of this thread is BIBLE quiz?

Originally posted by Leonardo01
(Unfortunately the discussions will have to be kept limited to the definitions provided by the bible for now. However I would like an in depth theosophical discussion in another thread perhaps but not now.)

so i am trying to respect the intention of Leonardo01 who started this thread.

and you guys are just obliviously spouting off the same old stuff that always comes up and that everyone repeats like a parrot, that isn't even in the bible at all!

if you want to talk about those things, it's all fine and good, but why go to a thread that mentions the bible in the title to do it?

be serious if the thread and the thread's owner are serious - and if they aren't, then don't be!

when in Rome...??

reply to post by queenannie38


No problem, I can answer the OP questions.

How did the creator come into existence in the first place?

Big bang.

The holy bible sorta confuses me, I mean in the old testament god is shown to be a badass punishing nasty evil humans but in the new testament he is shown to be loving, benevolent and all.

Which one is real and what do ya suppose the reasons for the radical makeover?

God is a total douche. Not the nice bearded guy in white. It isn't very loving at all even in the new testament. Remember, it does send human souls to the lake of fire.

Why would god place such a wuss "humans" at the zenith of his creation? Also why did he not grant us awesome lighting powers or something?

We do have awesome powers, they just seem ordinary because every single human can do them.

reply to post by queenannie38


I don't know what to say here except that I hate translations. Meaning is often misinterpreted and lost in translation[The revelation for example makes it clear that satan is another entity altogether]. The bible is still a book written by men and men are known to make mistakes. Your hypothesis would make sense for an eternal god as it would have to be an Apotheosis of all personalities that man encompasses than being actually what is referred to as "good"[This would also mean that it would be a total douchebag and has a bad case of multiple personality disorder]



However assuming that there is such an eternal and all knowing god then this leads to a paradox. If God is indeed eternal and all-knowing then the "concept of free will" would be an elaborate deception. Since god does have the power to stop evil but does not then it is certainly "evil".

While you may state that "good" are "evil" are subjective but they are agreed upon to exist. It doesn't really matter what dogma "good" and "evil" follow but as long as they are agreed upon to exist and the very fact that god condones the existence of "evil" shows that god is evil.



[edit on 23-7-2010 by Leonardo01]

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by queenannie38

 

No problem, I can answer the OP questions.

How did the creator come into existence in the first place?

Big bang.

[quote/]

Sure.The big bang however explains the origin of the universe but still does not explain how matter came into existence in the first place....religion too does not explain the origins of god.

reply to post by Leonardo01

Sure.The big bang however explains the origin of the universe but still does not explain how matter came into existence in the first place....religion too does not explain the origins of god.

Sure it does, and it explains the origin of God and the universe perfectly, if you follow the basic universal way most everything is created.

You got a single cell, the egg, it's fertilized by a single sperm, then that cell divides and divides and divides. The new life get's bigger and bigger and bigger till one day it is born. and BANG! You got a baby.

This time out, it was a much bigger birth.

reply to post by whatukno


Ostensibly the big bang theory as coined by Fred Hoyle explains the general evolution of the universe but it does not explain where the first particle which led to the big bang came from.

[edit on 23-7-2010 by Leonardo01]