Islam is the best DEMOCRACY (NOT Western Democracy)

reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth


One of my friends, a Pakistani, just got his citizenship here not very long ago. It took him 20 years, but he got it. He and I have had this same conversation, sometimes for hours at a time. His take is that he feels shari'a would do the US good, but he doesn't really WANT to see it happen, and the laws we have now supplanted.

He sees it more as an ideal, not as a concrete reality, and even he rejects certain aspects of the shari'a that are more backwards than others. I reckon the best way to put it is that he sees elements of the shari'a that he thinks America could benefit from, but the baggage of islam wouldn't be such a fine thing to impose here. It's good for certain folks, but would be disastrous as a general rule.

Yeah, lots of muslims are good folks. I believe firmly that you'll never find a better friend, nor a worse enemy than a muslim. I personally am a hillbilly, and can see certain similarities, certain points of congruence, that probably assisted my fall into islam all those years ago. The cultures are not all that different in the basics, but are vastly different in the particulars.

We have a saying where I'm from "I'll do anything in the world I can for ye, until ye piss me off, and then I'll do anything in the world I can TO ye!" That also sums up why muslims make such good friends, and implacable enemies. Many of them carry that same attitude.

reply to post by nenothtu


Kudos, well said hillbilly.

You have spoke in a manner that can be understood by everyone, and your experience in this matter is knowledge that can be used to help both sides of this religion understand.

Originally posted by oozyism

Yup, my turn to drink ^^

Hey oozy you are human, you seem to like a drink.

No body is forcing anything on you. If you were drunk I would understand, because I drink a lot too, but if you are straight, sober as you can be, and you speak in that manner, you have mental issues

It is good to see that you are merely human like the rest of us and that you have a blatant disregard for The Koran and it's teachings.

reply to post by space cadet


Well, that's really my take on the situation, in a nutshell. The answer, in my own wee mind, is neither the imposition of islam on the west, nor is it the imposition of what Oozyism calls "western democracy" on the islamic world.

No, in my opinion, the answer is to live and let live. I can't see any real reason that such a solution wouldn't work, other than the folks at the top of the heap desiring to keep things stirred up, with the ultimate goal of gathering power to 'their side', and ulitimately to themselves. The basic problem is too many folks who want to lord it over the rest of humanity, and the rest of humanity will eventually take umbrage at that. Then the wannabe overlords have to redouble their efforts in order to gain or maintain their control, and the cycle continues until something explodes.

Democracy is incompatible with islam. Because that's the case, I see no reason that democracy should be imposed on people who want no part of it, and are perfectly happy with the system they have, warts and all.

Likewise, islam, as a governing principle, isn't compatible with what we have in the west, and it's just not going to be imposed on us. I know that the islamic world views us as "weak", and "ripe for the picking", but they just haven't run into the right folks from the rank and file here. When they do, it will make the Middle Eastern wars look like a sickly warm up. Yes, we have a lot of weak folks here, and they are generally the loudest whiners, but not ALL of us, by any means. That would be a substantial miscalculation.

Now, the matter of the Afghan war we're currently in is a tangled up web, that goes way back. We should have never tried to 'help' Afghanistan by imposing a foreign government system on them. We should have just graunched the Taliban, and left, THEN offered HELP in reconstruction, and let the Afghans build their country back as they see fit. Going even further back, when the CIA left after the Russian war there, we didn't offer any help at all, much less the wrong kind of it. That left a power vacuum for the likes of the Taliban to take root in. The Afghans during the Russian war were fighting against the imposition of a foreign governing system, in that case communism, and now we've gone and made the same mistake and tried to impose a foreign governing system, in this case democracy.

Now Oozyism just wants to return the favor to us. The problem is, we won't be fighting back with old Lee-Enfields, Jezails, and rusted AKs.

No, the only real answer I think is for all the fighters to return to their corners, live and let live, and help folks to achieve the goals THEY want for themselves, on their own turf, not the goals WE want for them to have. The US should have gone in and fought the Taliban like they meant it in the first place, rather than trying to keep everyone happy by hobbling themselves with ridiculous rules of engagement. Since that's not the case, if they're not going to fight the Taliban like they mean to win, just come home, tail between legs, and get ready for the onslaught.

It's been so mismanaged so far that the only options left are to go all out and go for broke, erasing the taliban, or admit defeat and get ready for islam to come for us, thinking that we are as 'weak' here as the generals have been there.

'Live and let live' of course works both ways, but will never happen unless a dialog can take place. I really don't care how they run their own country, but you can bet they won't be running mine while I still breathe. Because I have that attitude, I can sort of understand the umbrage taken at the way we've fought, and the way we've tried to export democracy to a culture that isn't ready for it.

Anyhow, the dialog is what's needed as a first step, and that's what I aim for here.

When I'm not scrappin' that is...


[edit on 2010/7/17 by nenothtu]

reply to post by nenothtu


That's what I was thinking. Islam follows the word of Allah. The Koran is the word of Allah. If you follow the word of Allah, you are NOT following the will of the people. You are following the words of a Dictator. A single ruling figure. That is not a democracy. It is not freedom of choice.

reply to post by oozyism

Hey Oozyism, I have a question:
If Isalm and muslims are so great, and were at the top of their game, then why is it that the majority of the countries that have Islam as a predominate religion, (Please excuse me, in simple terms, that is the religion in power and the majority) Are living in a 3rd world country, not able to progress to the same level of understanding and technology as the rest of the world. Why is it that they are in the process of using technologry of the Western Democracy, and have developed nothing original on their own? I figured that if it is that perfect, then they would not rely on anything from the west, and would be thriving, excelling and outproducing the rest of the world hands down, yet it does not. And why is it that several of those countries, engage in Piracy, that of Somolia, and Nigeria, where all of the internet fraud comes from the north of the country, that is controled by Muslims and goverened by Islam.



[edit on 17-7-2010 by sdcigarpig]

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

 

Plus person can choose to be a citizen of democracy X or become citizen of other system without any problems. Democracy cannot exist without separation of powers.

1. When I say Democracy, in most people's head it means people having the right to choose.

2. Islam allows everyone to choose.

3. Simple, best Democracy out there.

4. Yes you can leave Islam if you wish.

Actually Islam does NOT allow women to choose anything..... GG

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by mf_luder

 

You can't debate, nor can you discuss, which forces me debunk your post once more with this line.

Islam defines a Muslim, not the other way around.

If you can argue that point then I'll take all the atrocities committed by supposed Muslims.

A man is defined by the content of his heart.

reply to post by oozyism

Actually, by definition the case is never 'closed' in a Democracy. It's an ongiong cultural debate and struggle that is beautiful at times and very nasty at times. Also, claiming that Islam is an ideal self-contained political system is as silly as saying everyone should convert to Mormonism or Catholicism in order to achieve a perfect 'Democracy'. Representative government was refined in the west as an attempt to address the many and varied groups in population who collectively can scarcely even agree that the sky is blue and fire burns and water is wet.
Despite our wild incongruencies, we've achieved a system (though corrupted) that enables a wild diversity of citizens to trade, interact and communicate while minimizing brutal primordial tribal conflict and bloody sectraianism.

The Muslim world (respect and peace unto it) seems to have it's own share of irrational bloodshed even if one removes the 'Western Interference' factor. The fact that we can even have this electronic conversation is the result of western technology developed by a polyglot of entrepreneurs and scientists motivated by the idea of 'difference' and innovation. Silicon Valley, Seattle, etc. are places that attract freethinkers.

Freethinkers disagree. They take liberties with their ideas and bodies. They sometimes disregard moral/religious taboos.

They go to places where they won't have their body parts hacked off for some random moral offense.

Monolithic goverments (socialism) and Theocracies only tend to produce systems of political control and drive their own brains out of their regions into places where these personalities can flourish unfettered by old ideologies.

Romanticizing Medieval belief systems is an all-too-common reaction among people who haven't been exposed to the excitement of innovation and Democratic disagreement. Zealotry and Cultural Chauvinism are the enemy of creativity.

dont other religions allow choosing?
except the "crusades" in the rennasaince and beffore,there wasnt any choosing them,just conquring and "accept god or fall". and look at me blaming muslims.
maybe its not a good idea to mix politics with religions.
religions are just...religions

moozyism isnt a democracy it's dogma. The word means submit, not much democracy in 'submit' by the way I define the word.
Democracy and religion, at opposite extremes in the spectrum of human choice.
Democracy is neither inherently good or bad,, it depends completley upon the charactor of those within the group. It is a proces and makes no guarantees of virtue or morality.
Democracy is majority within a group ruling upon the rules, not majority of one group forcing outside groups to convert to their beliefs or die.
Somone needs to use the language as amethod of discussion and not one of discombobulation and people here have to make it cleared that words mean things and the discussion must not be allowed to morph into primary process thinking of shifting definitions to deceive the naive. Moozy plays fast and loose either because he's unfamiliar with the concept of objective discipline of permanance of definitions or intentionally ignoring it.

Let's see..


Subjects, can we at least agree that Islam allows people to choose whether to become a Muslim or not>>?

Use Quran as evidence..

This is turning out to be quiet interesting.

hm were is the interesting? all religion allows choosing,they all want to convert you.
maybe we can agree that the quran holds a little more violent teachings then the bible.

Originally posted by Stillalive
hm were is the interesting? all religion allows choosing,they all want to convert you.
maybe we can agree that the quran holds a little more violent teachings then the bible.

So you agree, that Islam allows you to become a Muslim or not>?

Meaning you have the choice>?

How interesting and amazing that the subjects can't even answer a simple question directly due to hate.

Originally posted by oozyism

Originally posted by Stillalive
hm were is the interesting? all religion allows choosing,they all want to convert you.
maybe we can agree that the quran holds a little more violent teachings then the bible.

So you agree, that Islam allows you to become a Muslim or not>?

Meaning you have the choice>?

How interesting and amazing that the subjects can't even answer a simple question directly due to hate.

I will agree that Islam is like the hotel California, you can check in but never leave. Yes it does mean you can become a muslim, however, if you choose to leave, it means that you are marked for death, beaten imprisoned and ostracised. Choosing to leave the muslim community and choosing to follow another religion, means that person is a pariah and considered dead by their community and family. So the real question is why would any one in the right mind choose to go for that?

wow wow afcourse i agree that islam gives you choice,dont interpret my words thats cheating XD
and im not really into hate,i just had some bad experiences,besides islamist people consider my people/country like "brothers/neibhoors" so i dont really have the time to hate muslims. as because there are good people in all places.
its true islam gives you a choice as christianity.
but there are people from both factions,rapists in christianity mostly and fanatics in islam mostly who will try to convert you against your will,or to brainwash you.

reply to post by sdcigarpig


So you agree that Islam allows you to become Muslim.

But you disagree that it doesn't allow you to leave Islam once you become a Muslim.

OK:

Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."

Did you get your information from the Quran?

Originally posted by Stillalive
wow wow afcourse i agree that islam gives you choice,dont interpret my words thats cheating XD
and im not really into hate,i just had some bad experiences,besides islamist people consider my people/country like "brothers/neibhoors" so i dont really have the time to hate muslims. as because there are good people in all places.
its true islam gives you a choice as christianity.
but there are people from both factions,rapists in christianity mostly and fanatics in islam mostly who will try to convert you against your will,or to brainwash you.

A system is judged by the system, not by its supposed followers, for example someone can call himself a follower of Democracy, and once you vote for him, he can turn Democracy in to a dictatorship, hence Hitler.

Can Democracy be judged by Hitler?

Originally posted by oozyism

Originally posted by Stillalive
hm were is the interesting? all religion allows choosing,they all want to convert you.
maybe we can agree that the quran holds a little more violent teachings then the bible.

So you agree, that Islam allows you to become a Muslim or not>?

Meaning you have the choice>?

How interesting and amazing that the subjects can't even answer a simple question directly due to hate.

If one allows women to have sex with someone, that makes them democratic because they choose? Perhaps there is collusion, perhaps there is deception, perhaps there's misunderstanding. Perhaps there is lust,
Because one chooses something doesnt make it a democratic process and doesnt make it honest.
Is english your first language? You misunderstand much of the language and its' subtlties and make associations that arent there. What is your basis to imply that there is such a thing a 'best' democracy? Is that like a 'best' day of the week for all? Dont you see that you use your own belief in the priority of your dogma to 'prove' it's objective priority for everyone? Real life doesnt work that way, although self delusion does.

[edit on 17-7-2010 by mordant1]

reply to post by mordant1


Amazing, I only asked a simple question, and you already started the hate.

SECOND LINE!