Believers verses Skeptics, the REAL thread, UFO's and the division

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by PsychoX42

 

First off, I'm sure that even people like Phage and MMN will agree with me that UFOs exist. The problem arises when "believers" claim that they are alien in origin and there is no other viable option. However, this belief is only based on modern evidence and completely ignores the entire phenomenon's history. Second, quote Einstein all you want, he was still a scientist and as such he still had to follow the scientific method.

Did you miss the part where I said that there were no absolutes in a multidimensional reality?

And thank you for letting me quote Einstein all I want, I'm sure that he would have it no other way especially in a discussion like this.

Namaste and Love

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by PsychoX42

If you cannot find enough proof to change your mind concerning this topic, then I would say that there isn't enough proof in the Universe to open the closed mind that you have shut and locked like a trap.

So we have exhausted all possible evidence? It’s a done deal that aliens exist? I would think an actual alien would be the real done deal, would you not agree? We have only third party observations and nothing alien that we can actually put our hands on and say “wow this is not human or human created”.

So you just need some funny lights in the sky and witness reports and I just need a dead alien thrown up on my kitchen table...are we all that different? I don’t think so…

Actually, I never said that aliens existed to begin with. Again, there are no absolutes in a multi-dimensional Universe. You guys are quick to attack, but, you don't absorb the information that got you to attack mode to begin with.

So, I haven't claimed a side one way or the other.

What does your imagination tell you?

Namaste and Love

Originally posted by PsychoX42
Well I hope to get away from the us verses them mentality. This is about understanding the power that imagination has on our current reality and how our lives are shaped by it.

Oh, silly me. For some reason I took the time to read the title. Remember what you titled this thread?

Believers verses Skeptics, the REAL thread, UFO's and the division

Skeptics are more prone to shut out realities that involve using their own imagination.

Since when? Did you redefine "skeptic?"

If it doesn't fit within their conventions, they toss it and expect everyone else to do the same.

Namaste and Love Gunderson

I know you missed me!

A skeptic simply looks at things without the benefit of blind faith that it is evidence of what they hope it will be. Yeah, cant get enough of you.

Originally posted by IamBoon
I personally think the best logic on this issue is as follows.

If you want to assert that whatever UFO's that are seen are anything other than top secret projects or alien craft then that is your BELIEF.


If you want to assert that whatever UFO's that are seen are top secret projects or alien craft then that is your BELIEF.

The main point is that whatever side of the fence you are on ( this is where it differs from the whole religious debate) is that there is SOMETHING making those events happen .

Other than that you can argue your point to death either way because there just isn't that much evidence no matter what side you choose. I would just be prepared to come into a debate if you want to speak up about it either way.


I lean towards the notion that whatever is seen is terrestrial based on the pure obscurity of the phenomenon. Seriously , maybe top secret projects sometimes but aliens? It defies my reasoning to understand why something would come so far and nary make as much as a whimper!

[edit on 11-7-2010 by IamBoon]

I like your logic and the way that you approach life. Star from me.

Namaste and Love

If many of you haven't noticed, this is an observation that I have made from a third party perspective.

My point lies in the idea that our imaginations have been limited by the beliefs of others, which, is the reason why certain people work so hard to ensure that everyone believes the way that they do.

I have a different perspective, which is, you are to believe exactly what you want despite the bickering, and the desperate attempts made by others to change your free will by telling you what to believe.

I will also post this part in the OP.

Namaste and Love

[edit on 11-7-2010 by PsychoX42]

Originally posted by Phage
You see, Einstein's imagination was backed by a firm foundation in reality. And guess what, the fruit of his imagination has been backed up by evidence.

I think perhaps you might want to study more about Einstein and his "thought experiments." He was quite adamant that reality is not what it appears to be.

Here's a couple fun quotes:

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

Also, Einstein's Theory of Relativity has recently been questioned as faster than light travel has been observed, and gravitational mass has been observed to behave differently than inertial mass.
current.com...
www.technologyreview.com...

In closing, I leave you all with love and this gem from good ole Albert:

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."

reply to post by PsychoX42

I'm not offended. But you are the one who brought up religion.

Sorry skeptics and debunkers, but, you have ultimately limited yourselves to the confines of the very finite field of science, which ultimately, is nothing more than a religion based on observations and theories. 90% of these theories have yet to be proven conclusively enough to label as fact. If we actually still accepted the idea that the earth was flat and didn't have technology that would prove this inaccurate, guess what, the status quo would still say that the world was, in fact, still flat, and those who put this idea into question would be attacked viciously by those who desperately grip to the status quo to define their realities for them.

It has been a very long time since the world was thought to be flat by any but the ignorant. It was those who went beyond jumping to conclusions about what they were seeing and applying logic and reason who figured it out. Not those who just relied on what their eyes told them. It was those who did not let their imaginations run away with them. It was those understood that our eyes (and our imaginations) play tricks on us.

As I said, imagination can be a tool but without evidence it is nothing. Thinking something is real because one imagines it to be is nothing but a belief. The "beliefs" of science have a foundation. The belief that UFOs are extraterrestrial visitors has none but imagination.

[edit on 7/11/2010 by Phage]

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by PsychoX42
Well I hope to get away from the us verses them mentality. This is about understanding the power that imagination has on our current reality and how our lives are shaped by it.

Oh, silly me. For some reason I took the time to read the title. Remember what you titled this thread?

Believers verses Skeptics, the REAL thread, UFO's and the division

Skeptics are more prone to shut out realities that involve using their own imagination.

Since when? Did you redefine "skeptic?"

If it doesn't fit within their conventions, they toss it and expect everyone else to do the same.

Namaste and Love Gunderson

I know you missed me!

A skeptic simply looks at things without the benefit of blind faith that it is evidence of what they hope it will be. Yeah, cant get enough of you.

Yes indeed. Silly you. You looked at the title of the thread and made you own conclusions based on the title alone. Sorry about your luck on that one. However, it does address this issue while injecting my own opinion. But, this isn't about you guys duking it out, this is about you thinking on a more multidimensional platform.

Remember what happens when you assume things.

Namaste and Love

[edit on 11-7-2010 by PsychoX42]

Originally posted by PsychoX42
Yes indeed. Silly you. You looked at the title of the thread and made you own conclusions. Sorry about your luck on that one. However, it does address this issue. But, this isn't about you guys duking it out, this is about you thinking on a more multidimensional platform.

Remember what happens when you assume things.

Namaste and Love

You are so right. So tell me, since you are NOT talking about one verses the other, in fact you are trying to get away from any such thing, I have to ask...

What does

Believers verses Skeptics

mean then?

reply to post by ChicUFO


Oh, I see what you did there.

Brilliant extension.

Love and peace to you, my friend.

Namaste.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by PsychoX42

 

I'm not offended. But you are the one who brought up religion.

Sorry skeptics and debunkers, but, you have ultimately limited yourselves to the confines of the very finite field of science, which ultimately, is nothing more than a religion based on observations and theories. 90% of these theories have yet to be proven conclusively enough to label as fact. If we actually still accepted the idea that the earth was flat and didn't have technology that would prove this inaccurate, guess what, the status quo would still say that the world was, in fact, still flat, and those who put this idea into question would be attacked viciously by those who desperately grip to the status quo to define their realities for them.

It has been a very long time since the world was thought to be flat by any but the ignorant. It was those who went beyond jumping to conclusions about what they were seeing and applying logic and reason who figured it out. Not those who just relied on what their eyes told them. It was those who did not let their imaginations run away with them. It was those understood that our eyes (and our imaginations) play tricks on us.

As I said, imagination can be a tool but without evidence it is nothing. Thinking something is real because one imagines it to be is nothing but a belief. The "beliefs" of science have a foundation. The belief that UFOs are extraterrestrial visitors has none but imagination.

[edit on 7/11/2010 by Phage]

Yes indeed, I brought up the idea that science is nothing more than a religion. However, I think you missed the general point of the thread. Hence the reason why you are picking out segments like the "earth being flat part." These were items put up meant to make you think more critically about the dangers in limiting your imagination and the implications that they could have for your personal reality. Surely you are aware that this was the case...No?

Namaste and Love



[edit on 11-7-2010 by PsychoX42]

reply to post by ChicUFO


Nicely done. Agreed.

Namaste and Love

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by PsychoX42
Yes indeed. Silly you. You looked at the title of the thread and made you own conclusions. Sorry about your luck on that one. However, it does address this issue. But, this isn't about you guys duking it out, this is about you thinking on a more multidimensional platform.

Remember what happens when you assume things.

Namaste and Love

You are so right. So tell me, since you are NOT talking about one verses the other, in fact you are trying to get away from any such thing, I have to ask...

What does

Believers verses Skeptics

mean then?

Would you prefer I say, "Believers And Skeptics," because regardless, I still point to the fact that you guys bicker non-stop about something that isn't definite by any means. Its a line that you guys created for yourselves and only exists in the minds of those who constantly entertain it.

It seems to be something that you all need. To constantly be at odds with each other about something that appears to be totally benign. So yes, I think the thread title still adequately addresses this situation.

Love ya man

Namaste end Love

reply to post by UrbanShaman

You know that Einstein was working on a PhD as he developed his theories of relativity, right? You know he used established mathematics to develop his theories, right? You know that a good part of his work on special relativity was based on the work of others, right? His ideas were not a matter of pure imagination, they were based on reality, reason, and (yes) established principles. For the third time; imagination is important. But guess what, it's just as important to skeptics. The difference is that skeptics base their imagination on reason and logic. If something imagined does not have evidence or hold up to reason, it is not taken at face value.

Faster than light travel has not been observed. The article you posted is wrong. Nothing is traveling faster than the speed of light in Singleton's experiment.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 7/11/2010 by Phage]

reply to post by Phage


Let's also not forget that Einstein also denied the majority of quantum mechanics. At the end of his life he was looking for a way to keep the new findings in physics within the realm of Newton's mechanistic universe. So, for someone who valued imagination so much he certainly tried his hardest to show that the universe is nothing more than a set of rules that allows for exact calculations to be made instead of probabilities.

We are reminded constantly that we are free to believe whatever we want to believe. So example case in point.

Someone records a 2 minute video of a helicopter in the sky?
His imagination opens up a whole new world of possibilities and from that imagination he 'believes' the helicopter to be extra terrestrial in origin and piloted by a leader named Zurg from worlds beyond.

People come on ATS and offer their own viewpoints, claiming it to be a helicopter. Are we now saying that the whole base of ufology should change to allow people to run amok making outlandish claims based on their own imagination? without any solid evidence or reality? Isnt that exactly what Allison Kruse was doing? filming terrestrial objects and making them out to be something completely alien?

I recently had a similar scenario, I could only offer my own opinion based on what i saw in a 30 second video, although the person taking the video was adament they saw something completely different to what i saw I didnt wage a personal vendetta against him for holding a different viewpoint. I also maintained that if he had further footage he could share it with me.

I'm here because i'm interested in the subject and i usually ask lots of questions to find plausible possibilities for the sightings. It's my opinion that even if someone has a differing opinion from yours, shouting obscentities at them:
A) Wont change their mind.
B) Is a complete waste of your own time.

I'm not always right, I will make mistakes and i am not ego driven. If i've gotten the wrong end of the stick with this thread then fair enough. I've always looked at the subject from this viewpoint.

1) Seperate what you know as actual FACT from fiction.
2) Ask open and honest questions to get to an accurate conclusion.

I like the reports that NARCAP have done. Especially the one on O'Hare incident. Going through the layout of the airport all the possible viewpoints and angles that could of been observed by witnesses. That kind of methodical approach to draw an accurate conclusion based on events to me makes more rational sense than allowing your imagination to run amok!

I'd like this subject to be taken alot more seriously than it is, and i firmly believe that as civilians if we all adopted that style of approach, many would find alot of cases to be quite mundane and explainable. - but maybe thats why people want to believe from their imagination?

Let me ask this though - if you spent 30 years of your life looking into the night sky every single night without a single solid shred of evidence produced. But Just on 1 occasion you had a camera setup and got the best footage ever of something completely extra terrestrial. There was enough footage for it not to be considered too short to be a hoax and it was all in focus with full time and date and corroborated witness testimony, wouldnt this be far more valuable than trading it through for 30 years of your life for repeated hoax attempts and mis-identifications due to letting your imagination run wild?

At which point does the subject stop becoming a laughing stock and start being taken seriously?

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by UrbanShaman

 

You know that Einstein was working on a PhD as he developed his theories of relativity, right? You know he used established mathematics to develop his theories, right? You know that a good part of his work on special relativity was based on the work of others, right? His ideas were not a matter of pure imagination, they were based on reality, reason, and (yes) established principles. For the third time; imagination is important. But guess what, it's just as important to skeptics. The difference is that skeptics base their imagination on reason and logic. If something imagined does not have evidence or hold up to reason, it is not taken at face value.

Faster than light travel has not been observed. The article you posted is wrong. Nothing is traveling faster than the speed of light in Singleton's experiment.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 7/11/2010 by Phage]

The goal of the thread here is to tell people not to shut down their imaginations Phage. This isn't an attack against science or skeptics, nor is it an attack against "believers."

I am saying that its important for each side to maintain their imagination so that they aren't limited to up to date findings by the scientific community. Nothing more. The believer/skeptic thing is a construct that each side has chosen for themselves. Why, I am not sure. I gave the greater edge to the crowd which believes because they haven't shut down higher possibilities and are quicker to grasp more abstract concepts, however, this may be an error in judgement because often believers shut themselves down to a more "grounded possibility." Either way, the imagination is being limited when each side torments each other by attacks as opposed to understanding the phenomenon from all sides. Bickering about it does nothing but obfuscate the initial study in the first place.

In other words the split between both factions does more to hurt and affect the science of Ufology itself than offer any hopes of validation of anomalous crafts. And it does no good for either side to attempt to alter the opinions or concrete beliefs of the other by negative means. By limiting and altering the imaginations of others, you effectively infringe on their free will of belief, or, lack thereof. Its healthy when both sides present their view, but, unhealthy when each side becomes ego oriented as opposed to scientifically driven.

Namaste and Love

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by PsychoX42

 

First off, I'm sure that even people like Phage and MMN will agree with me that UFOs exist. The problem arises when "believers" claim that they are alien in origin and there is no other viable option. However, this belief is only based on modern evidence and completely ignores the entire phenomenon's history. Second, quote Einstein all you want, he was still a scientist and as such he still had to follow the scientific method.

Xcalibur254.....

I won't presume to speak on behalf of Phage.....

In my case, PsychoX42 has already 99.9% branded me as a "non believer" or "debunker" or whatever words one cares to use.

And yet.....

I have started my own threads about "unknowns".....

I have posted extensively about "unknowns".....

I have written about a very detailed sighting of an "unknown" by a very close family member (with an accompanying witness known to me) who until that occured was a total hard-line skeptic.....

I have written about & spoken on ATS Live in detail about my own possible "unknown" & other cases that puzzle me.....

And.....do I think these "unknowns" are aliens?

Maybe....maybe not

Geez.....why do people think I use the name that I do?

You know.....

It's the complete lack of reading effort & / comprehension skills inherent in the position of people like PsychoX42 that is so unhelpful to these discussions.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

reply to post by PsychoX42

If you cannot find enough proof to change your mind concerning this topic, then I would say that there isn't enough proof in the Universe to open the closed mind that you have shut and locked like a trap. Remember that word...TRAP; because essentially, that is all that you have put yourself into.

Not an attack? Accusing someone of having a closed mind sure sounds more like someone coming from a imagined superior point of view rather than a balanced statement.

So who has the closed mind? Someone who believes that there is no other explanation for a light in the sky than an extraterrestrial craft? Or someone who understands that things are not always what they appear to be? That our eyes lie to us. That our minds have a tendency to "fill in the blanks" when they don't have enough information. That our imagination can lead us down the wrong path entirely?

How about using that imagination for something like this; "Hmmm. I wonder if what I'm looking at is smaller than I think. I wonder if it is closer than I think. I wonder if it might be a balloon. Yes, I can imagine to be a balloon. In fact, the more I look at it, the more it looks like a balloon." Is that a closed mind or is it an abuse of imagination.

reply to post by Maybe...maybe not


You might go back to that thread and see where I offered you an apology. That's not something that you see that often on ATS. At least, for the limited time that I have been here.

Namaste and Love