Believers verses Skeptics, the REAL thread, UFO's and the division

So, I've seen tons of UFO threads come up recently with people bickering back and fourth about the possibility of one reality verses the next. Its pretty pathetic.

Here's my take on things. This was actually a post that I made in another thread, but, I found that it just disappeared in a stack of nonsense while people consistently attacked each other for virtually no reason.

So, here's my stance:

I watch this struggle and see how this subject has divided so many people right down a line that doesn't even exist. You created this line, therefore, the line only exists in the minds of the creators themselves.

We have the skeptics that are saying one thing and the believers are saying something entirely different based on a belief system as opposed to what we consider to be scientific fact.

Skeptics rely on science and its extremely slow propensity for discovery, and many believers rely on either personal experience, videos, or testimony from witnesses.

Do you guys realize that the ultraviolet spectrum has existed since the beginning of time but was only discovered in 1801? If that's not an example of the slow workings of science, then I really don't know what is. It literally took 1 thousand, and 8 hundred and 1 years before we finally came to the conclusion that other things exist outside of the human mind's ability to perceive it. In other words, had we not discovered this very real dimension that exists outside of human perception because of technology, we would probably be crucifying someone if they were to propose that such a dimension existed in the first place. This is nothing short of the UFO debate that we currently have going on right now.

I will say this now...the amount of knowledge that one can ascertain is actually dependent on the limitations, or lack thereof, of the imagination. Everything on this planet that we take for granted is a result of human imagination. Whether it be the roads we drive, the technology that we use, or the homes in which we live, someone conceived of these things in their imagination and then made it reality. A reality in which skeptics or debunkers somehow believed already existed before someone either discovered, or invented it. I had this same discussion on another thread and ironically, the only one's who couldn't digest what I was saying were the debunkers and skeptics who cannot view anything past what has already been placed in their laps by the workings of someone else that they consider to be more knowledgeable than them. Sorry skeptics and debunkers, but, you have ultimately limited yourselves to the confines of the very finite field of science, which ultimately, is nothing more than a religion based on observations and theories. 90% of these theories have yet to be proven conclusively enough to label as fact. If we actually still accepted the idea that the earth was flat and didn't have technology that would prove this inaccurate, guess what, the status quo would still say that the world was, in fact, still flat, and those who put this idea into question would be attacked viciously by those who desperately grip to the status quo to define their realities for them. Sad. Very sad.

Albert Einstein ladies and gentlemen:
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
thinkexist.com...

Is there someone on ATS who views themselves as more intelligent than Einstein and cares to debunk someone who was far ahead of them in the game? Anyone? If you actually attempt to debunk this, you will only be reaffirming the content of this post altogether. In effect, I can already say..."checkmate," because there isn't a single one of you that can claim that they know everything in their absolutes. And there's not a one of you who have developed theories that would make Einstein's statement irrelevant.

Point Blank: Those who can imagine higher possibilities will always be ahead of the curve against those who limit themselves to the discoveries of others, be that science, religion, or what have you. If you definitively say that there are no UFO's or aliens, then essentially, you are only confirming your limited belief structure to yourself. You haven't changed anyone else's minds, you are only putting yourself into a box that you inherently choose to reside. That's your choice.

There have been multiple points of proof that have surfaced that would indicate that UFO's are quite real, and they have been supported by several experts, credible witnesses, and people to whom you have had faith enough to run this country.

If you cannot find enough proof to change your mind concerning this topic, then I would say that there isn't enough proof in the Universe to open the closed mind that you have shut and locked like a trap. Remember that word...TRAP; because essentially, that is all that you have put yourself into. The EGO is a very powerful force that will make you entertain absolutes, when in a multidimensional reality, no absolutes exist. Don't lock yourself inside of a box, or you will find that no matter what information surfaces, you will constantly disavow it in order to maintain the limited reality that you have built for yourselves. And just because you've limited your own reality, doesn't mean that everyone wants to do the same with theirs.

If many of you haven't noticed, this is an observation that I have made from a third party perspective. I don't care which side of the isle that you fall on, (believer/nonbeliever) the debate in of itself is useless.

My point lies in the idea that our imaginations have been limited by the beliefs of others, which, is the reason why certain people work so hard to ensure that everyone believes the way that they do. This is their way of inflicting their will and their power upon you to destroy your perceptions so that they can own your reality as theirs.

I have a different perspective, which is, you are to believe exactly what you want despite the bickering, and the desperate attempts made by others to change your free will by telling you what to believe.

That's enough from me. Continue your rants.

Namaste and Love


[edit on 11-7-2010 by PsychoX42]

Originally posted by PsychoX42
Do you guys realize that the ultraviolet spectrum has existed since the beginning of time but was only discovered in 1801?

Thank you for this example. Slowly but surely the numb skulls full of mush (debunkers) will at least give their peers some benefit of a doubt. There is so much we don't know about ourselves and each other.

[edit on 2010-7-11 by pikypiky]

Ok. That does it. You win. Believers are better.

Believers that evil spirits are the cause of disease. Have been a major contribution to the advancement of humanity.
Believers that breaking a mirror will result in no good.
Believers that extraterrestrials will save us. Now that's a good one. We don't have to do anything. Our space brothers will make it all better.

Same old stupid dichotomy. Rational people have no imagination. Right. Imagination has its place (an important place) but just because something can be imagined does not make it real. You see, Einstein's imagination was backed by a firm foundation in reality. And guess what, the fruit of his imagination has been backed up by evidence.

Originally posted by PsychoX42

If you cannot find enough proof to change your mind concerning this topic, then I would say that there isn't enough proof in the Universe to open the closed mind that you have shut and locked like a trap.

So we have exhausted all possible evidence? It’s a done deal that aliens exist? I would think an actual alien would be the real done deal, would you not agree? We have only third party observations and nothing alien that we can actually put our hands on and say “wow this is not human or human created”.

So you just need some funny lights in the sky and witness reports and I just need a dead alien thrown up on my kitchen table...are we all that different? I don’t think so…

Originally posted by pikypiky


Thank you for this example. Slowly but surely the numb skulls full of mush (debunkers) will at least give their peers some benefit of a doubt. There is so much we don't know about ourselves and each other.

[edit on 2010-7-11 by pikypiky]

Well first I don't think my head is full of mush and you can believe in all you want to..aliens, fairies, big foot all of it, and have fun at it too, but I think the argument really only comes down to believers saying there is enough evidence for them to believe and skeptics saying there is not enough “yet” to believe. It is truly that simple, so why not respect that we just need more than you.

I personally think the best logic on this issue is as follows.

If you want to assert that whatever UFO's that are seen are anything other than top secret projects or alien craft then that is your BELIEF.


If you want to assert that whatever UFO's that are seen are top secret projects or alien craft then that is your BELIEF.

The main point is that whatever side of the fence you are on ( this is where it differs from the whole religious debate) is that there is SOMETHING making those events happen .

Other than that you can argue your point to death either way because there just isn't that much evidence no matter what side you choose. I would just be prepared to come into a debate if you want to speak up about it either way.


I lean towards the notion that whatever is seen is terrestrial based on the pure obscurity of the phenomenon. Seriously , maybe top secret projects sometimes but aliens? It defies my reasoning to understand why something would come so far and nary make as much as a whimper!

[edit on 11-7-2010 by IamBoon]

reply to post by PsychoX42


I do detest that word believer as it makes the field of ufology seem like a religion. That is what the debunkers and skeptics call people who do hold a theory that our planet has been visited by extraterrestrials.

To be treated with respect, ufologists must keep doing what they do great: asking questions and gathering evidence from the cases that are out there. Robert Hastings is a name that comes to mind as he has amassed a huge amount of actual government documents and military witnesses of objects that actually physically disrupt the missile systems.

Many thousands of cases involving physical evidence, from trace cases to very good ones are out there and documented. The problem is ufology itself is being taken over by New Age and fringe areas like crop circles and orbs. While I have no problem with people investigating those phenomena, I think it is a disservice to lump them in with ufology and the search for nuts and bolts craft. Once we put the focus back on real ufology and let other groups deal with the rest, ufology as a whole will see some respect. From what I see happening, it will not happen for a long time.

C.S. Peirce's four methods of fixing belief:
The first three he ridicules, as only Peirce can:

Tenacity-escaping doubt and latching on to belief by refusing to listen to anything else.

Authority-Peirce relates this to religious conviction and the authority of the church. A method of fixing belief but not an account for truth.

A Priori- As conceived by John Locke, that is, innate, or inborn, ideas. Not a priori as Descartes favors ("I think therefore I am," knowledge by reason alone.

Ultimately, Peirce decides that the fourth method, the Scientific Method, is the only way we can find real facts on which to fix our beliefs. This will be validated by a change in habits.



My 2 cents.

I personally have never seen a UFO or solid proof of ET but I don't entirely discount them based upon the absence of such evidence. Up until recently, I considered myself to be on the fence and to some extent, I still do. However, I'm starting to move to the skeptic side of the fence entirely, based upon my experiences as of late.

I have never seen solid evidence to suggest that ET exists, save for the multitude of eye-witness accounts, however after being on ATS for six months or so, I'm starting to seriously doubt these accounts.

For instance, the photo from China in the latest airport closure incident. The photo is clearly a double/long exposure, yet people are fervently swearing this to be a UFO (of ET or unorthodox origin) when there is nothing to suggest this to be the case at all. That one little thread seems to be a microcosm of UFO sightings as a whole, which makes me wonder if the multitude of UFO sightings are based upon the same assumptions, misidentifications and faulty evidence.

If all of these people swear by this sighting, then how many other accounts are based upon the same sketchy evidence and biased thought? It's not just this sighting either, rather it's almost all "sightings" posted here on ATS. When there is nothing to suggest ET or clandestine projects, members swear this to be the case, even ignoring more probable explanations.

With that being said, I will still hold out on any final conclusions until I see proof either way, though I remain highly skeptical and I would certainly say that I am not a believer.

I have yet to see any proof or solid evidence, though I have seen a plethora of misidentifications that have been fervently projected as the real thing, which ultimately strengthens my skepticism and leads me to wonder if all or most accounts are based upon the same line of thinking.

--airspoon


Edited to add: Almost all UFO evidence presented on this site can easily be explained by normal, everyday phenomenon. I have yet to see a thread, pic or video of a UFO that makes me scratch my head and wonder if we are being visited by otherworldly intelligent species, yet many of the "believers" will passionately defend this evidence as being just that, completely ignoring all other rational explanations.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by airspoon]

I personally think it's possible we've been visited by E.T's at specific points throughout history, but the evidence just doesn't exist.

There's too much heresay, disinformation, lies, hoaxes, and profiteering within the "field" for me to form a solid belief, based on fact, that this is happening.

Would I be surprised? Not entirely. But there's too much murk clouding the water.

As an open sceptic I find this thread very interesting, now let me debunk it.

Your basic argument is that the sceptics and debunkers (like myself) use science to challenge UFO believes however because science is limited we do not have the full picture and thus anything is possible. Ok fair enough am with so far. You then say that people who believe in UFO’s are able to use both their current environment but also their imagination to open their minds to the existence of UFO’s.

If I was to use your argument with sceptics and another believe other than UFO’s it falls to bits. For example years ago humanity “believed” that the earth was flat, the science proved this to be wrong. Everyone believed it but it wasn’t true. The same can be done with other religion, which is arguably the result of human imagination.

One quote form Einstein does not make you correct I can debunk it with another Einstein quote

“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.”

So human stupidity is infinite as is the human imagination that must mean it is infinitely possible for humans to develop the most stupid ideas as the product of the imagination. The idea that we are routinely visited by UFO’s is in my opinion one such infinitely stupid idea that is the result of human imagination.

reply to post by kevinunknown


Thanks for the sig. Well, thank you for reminding me of that brilliant Einstein quote.

reply to post by PsychoX42


PsychoX42

I don't believe we need another battle thread.

Here is some nice music instead.....



Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

reply to post by Maybe...maybe not


Thanks for the music, Zoolander.

It is kind of sad to see the board reduced to bickering between the two "camps."

But every interesting topic I've read here lately has degraded into assault upon each other based on conflicting beliefs.

That's why I often repeat my mantra of "beliefs are bad," because with subject matter as ambigious as UFO's, one needs to remain objective.

There are no hard facts to build beliefs on.

As unfortunate as it is to see these two camps constantly clash, I'd rather have it done in designated threads than within interesting topics.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by SaosinEngaged]

Believers verses ATHEISTS, the REAL thread, RELIGIOUS and the division

So, I've seen tons of RELIGIOUS threads come up recently with people bickering back and fourth about the possibility of one reality verses the next. Its pretty pathetic.

Here's my take on things. This was actually a post that I made in another thread, but, I found that it just disappeared in a stack of nonsense while people consistently attacked each other for virtually no reason.

So, here's my stance:

I watch this struggle and see how this subject has divided so many people right down a line that doesn't even exist. You created this line, therefore, the line only exists in the minds of the creators themselves.

We have the ATHEISTS that are saying one thing and the believers are saying something entirely different based on a belief system as opposed to what we consider to be scientific fact.

Skeptics rely on science and its extremely slow propensity for discovery, and many believers rely on either personal experience, videos, or testimony from witnesses.

Do you guys realize that the ultraviolet spectrum has existed since the beginning of time but was only discovered in 1801? If that's not an example of the slow workings of science, then I really don't know what is. It literally took 1 thousand, and 8 hundred and 1 years before we finally came to the conclusion that other things exist outside of the human mind's ability to perceive it. In other words, had we not discovered this very real dimension that exists outside of human perception because of technology, we would probably be crucifying someone if they were to propose that such a dimension existed in the first place. This is nothing short of the RELIGIOUS debate that we currently have going on right now.

I will say this now...the amount of knowledge that one can ascertain is actually dependent on the limitations, or lack thereof, of the imagination. Everything on this planet that we take for granted is a result of human imagination. Whether it be the roads we drive, the technology that we use, or the homes in which we live, someone conceived of these things in their imagination and then made it reality. A reality in which skeptics or debunkers somehow believed already existed before someone either discovered, or invented it. I had this same discussion on another thread and ironically, the only one's who couldn't digest what I was saying were the debunkers and skeptics who cannot view anything past what has already been placed in their laps by the workings of someone else that they consider to be more knowledgeable than them. Sorry skeptics and debunkers, but, you have ultimately limited yourselves to the confines of the very finite field of science, which ultimately, is nothing more than a religion based on observations and theories. 90% of these theories have yet to be proven conclusively enough to label as fact. If we actually still accepted the idea that the earth was flat and didn't have technology that would prove this inaccurate, guess what, the status quo would still say that the world was, in fact, still flat, and those who put this idea into question would be attacked viciously by those who desperately grip to the status quo to define their realities for them. Sad. Very sad.

Albert Einstein ladies and gentlemen:
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
thinkexist.com...

Is there someone on ATS who views themselves as more intelligent than Einstein and cares to debunk someone who was far ahead of them in the game? Anyone? If you actually attempt to debunk this, you will only be reaffirming the content of this post altogether. In effect, I can already say..."checkmate,"

the thread will not allow me to post anymore "sorry"

What do believers want?

Do you want skeptics to just shut up so you can believe in peace? Do you want everyone to just step back and say "Oh ok fine, you're right, aliens exist, they're visiting us just like you said, and they're exactly as you describe them."?

Because even believers can't agree on what's actually going on. Are the aliens benevolent and trying to keep us from destroying our world? Are they just observers? Are they malevolent and actually getting ready to destroy us? Are they working with our governments and participating in a huge, worldwide conspiracy?

In every single one of these battle threads, it always comes down to two things: Believers complaining about skeptics who constantly expose that there's no actual proof, and skeptics constantly pointing out that there's no proof. My biggest problem with all of this is that the believers don't seem to have a clear goal beyond complaining about the skeptics who are exposing their belief as simply a belief and not absolute truth.

In the absence of the smoking gun that proves the particular belief of that particular believer, it becomes so much easier to just blame everyone who doesn't believe as the "cause" of that believer's problems. Skeptics are the ultimate non-believer, because they cause problems with every believer, not just that particular one, so it's very easy for every believer to scapegoat the skeptics instead of each other.

I think one of the most important things to remember here is that no matter how much you believe, how much imagination you have, how deeply (even religiously) you may see something as absolute fact, it may not be. So, if all of the skeptics and believers in alternate theories were to just suddenly shut up, then what? Does that make your version of reality true? Of course not. You'd still have the same problems you have now, you just wouldn't have anyone to blame it on.

Maybe we should consider shutting up for just that reason. I've gotten to the point that I think UFOlogy is such a pointless pursuit of time just due to the pointless banter that happens here that's considered "research". All that ever happens is an unexplained picture/video/experience gets posted, then everyone starts up with "I think" instead of doing any actual research.

That is, except for the skeptics. They posit facts, examination, and actual data to back up their claims rather than opinion. Of course, none of this that I've said actually matters, because I'm not agreeing 100%, so I'm sure it hasn't been fully read by anyone it was aimed at anyway.

So when Maria Stardust closed the other thread that was EXACTLY LIKE THIS ONE by stating

"
The staff has decided to refrain from "Us vs. Them" themed threads in this forum. Please continue to discuss these instances on a case-by-case basis.

Thank you!

Thread closed. "

You understood that as a call to try again?

Originally posted by Phage
Ok. That does it. You win. Believers are better.

Believers that evil spirits are the cause of disease. Have been a major contribution to the advancement of humanity.
Believers that breaking a mirror will result in no good.
Believers that extraterrestrials will save us. Now that's a good one. We don't have to do anything. Our space brothers will make it all better.

Same old stupid dichotomy. Rational people have no imagination. Right. Imagination has its place (an important place) but just because something can be imagined does not make it real. You see, Einstein's imagination was backed by a firm foundation in reality. And guess what, the fruit of his imagination has been backed up by evidence.

Evil spirits? How did this work into the world of religion? Oh wait, maybe its because I claimed that science in of itself is a religion. I can understand your hasty response.

But, as it were, there are certain limitations to basing all of your knowledge off of someone else's discoveries. Don't you agree?

Regardless, this isn't a matter of winners and losers. This is about understanding how imagination manifests itself in our daily lives and shapes the world around us.

Sorry you were so insulted my friend.

Namaste and Love

reply to post by PsychoX42


First off, I'm sure that even people like Phage and MMN will agree with me that UFOs exist. The problem arises when "believers" claim that they are alien in origin and there is no other viable option. However, this belief is only based on modern evidence and completely ignores the entire phenomenon's history. Second, quote Einstein all you want, he was still a scientist and as such he still had to follow the scientific method.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
So when Maria Stardust closed the other thread that was EXACTLY LIKE THIS ONE by stating

"
The staff has decided to refrain from "Us vs. Them" themed threads in this forum. Please continue to discuss these instances on a case-by-case basis.

Thank you!

Thread closed. "

You understood that as a call to try again?

Well I hope to get away from the us verses them mentality. This is about understanding the power that imagination has on our current reality and how our lives are shaped by it. Skeptics are more prone to shut out realities that involve using their own imagination. If it doesn't fit within their conventions, they toss it and expect everyone else to do the same.

Namaste and Love Gunderson

I know you missed me!