Debunkers Vs Believers... Time to draw a line!!!

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Master Shen long

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Master Shen long
Or are you with the Closed side (All hail skeptics/debunkers with our closed minds)?

Bad trolling attempt.

It seems you have a flawed premise.

Skeptics most certainly do have open minds. They simply require evidence.

"Believers", conversely, do NOT have open minds. They are unable to free themselves from their preconceived notions.

Ok you make a valid point with the skeptic side and thus i will remove it from my thread............. But your second point is lame

No, my second point is dead-on accurate.

If you are a "believer", nothing will change your mind about your beliefs. No evidence, no skeptic, no debunker will sway your belief. That's as closed-minded as it gets.

No wrong.... Im a believer ( i opend the orig Chinese UFO thread) but after all the evidence was put forward i agreed it was probs a rocket/missile due to the video evidence in the second thread i posted about the "video". But what happend ? WOOA i agreed that it was not an ALIEN craft and just a UFO!
Now did the debunkers on there state that? No they claimed and spat it was a chopper, then it was a fake photo, then it was a time stretched image of a chopper, then it was venus, then it was that rocket from 10 days befour, then it was a different rocket, then it was the same rocket launched out of Blossom Goodchilds ass!

hi i believe and keep an open mind, my mind should evolve with my surroundings thus keeping a healthy mind!

reply to post by Master Shen long


Let me try again.

What is the difference between a skeptic and a debunker?

And why can they not also be a believer?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer"Believers", conversely, do NOT have open minds. They are unable to free themselves from their preconceived notions.

Hello. I totally see where you are coming from.

I used to believe in poltergeists because of an incident. Now I don't. Now I interpret the incident in terms of RSPK.

I used to believe in angels and demons. Now I think of such things in Jungian terms.

See, "believers" do change. But you must understand that in some cases, there are mystical and religious and yes even paranormal experiences behind beliefs. For experience based beliefs to change, the new framework must accommodate the experiences somehow. If a potential framework does not address an area of human experience, then it is difficult for a "believer" to reconcile it with his or her own direct experiences.

I recommend for you two books: The Varieties of Religious Experience and The Varieties of Anomalous Experience.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by Student X]

reply to post by Master Shen long
Why do you assume, or presume to create, a division between 'Belief' and 'Skepticism?'

I have long believed in extraterrestrial intelligence, that the UFO phenomena is real, that some UFOs are real craft, and that some may not be of terrestrial origin.

On the other hand, i am not convinced that UFOs necessarily come from other planets or galaxies. On the most most-respected writers on the subject, Jacques Vallee (interpreted by Spielberg in CE3K), does not assume that they are "alien spacecraft." Yet he believes they are real phenomena.

In my profession, and to my mind, healthy skepticism LEADS to well-founded BELIEF! Isn't that the true nature of science?

To me, the most reliable 'believers' are ALSO 'skeptics.' Think of Hynek, Aldrin, Keyhoe and Dolan; they all espoused skepticism to a degree tempered by factual analysis.

jw

What is wrong with being a debunker.

Definition
–verb (used with object)
to expose or excoriate (a claim, assertion, sentiment, etc.) as being pretentious, false, or exaggerated

How did debunker become a four-letter word to believers and why is it so threatening to them?

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
What is wrong with being a debunker.

Definition
–verb (used with object)
to expose or excoriate (a claim, assertion, sentiment, etc.) as being pretentious, false, or exaggerated

How did debunker become a four-letter word to believers and why is it so threatening to them?

Right after a bunch of the utterly too faithful jumped on a bunch of fake UFO pics and praised their reality without reading that they were labeled fake at the bottom.

That seemed to be the tipping point.

Originally posted by Student X

See, "believers" do change. But you must understand that in some cases, there are mystical and religious and yes even paranormal experiences behind beliefs. For experience based beliefs to change, the new framework must accommodate the experiences somehow. If a potential framework does not address an area of human experience, then it is difficult for a "believer" to reconcile it with his or her own direct experiences.

I agree. I'm an ex-believer in many things who has also changed. But it took a lot of time and work to undo those beliefs. And during the time I did believe things there wasn't anything that was going to change my belief. My mind was closed though I may have reckoned myself open-minded.

I simply found the OPs premise to be not only flawed but completely inverse.

Originally posted by Master Shen long
No wrong.... Im a believer ( i opend the orig Chinese UFO thread) but after all the evidence was put forward i agreed it was probs a rocket/missile due to the video evidence in the second thread i posted about the "video". But what happend ? WOOA i agreed that it was not an ALIEN craft and just a UFO!

Sounds to me as if you had to change your initial opinions because you were shown contrary evidence to your position. This seems to have aroused a tad bit of hostility on your part, but that's a normal reaction when someone challenges your beliefs.

But did your beliefs really change? My guess is no. You probably believe aliens fly spaceships around our planet and though your opinion changed about a single photo your overall beliefs remain intact. I suspect your mind is still closed to the notion that maybe there really are no aliens flying spaceships around.

reply to post by Master Shen long

which side of the fence you stand!

For the moment I'll stand with the "there's not enough information, but it's very interesting" crowd.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Were any of your beliefs based on your personal experience, or reinforced by your experience? If so, could you describe the experiences please?

Or were your beliefs based on the surroundings you were born and raised in?

[edit on 11-7-2010 by Student X]

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

How did debunker become a four-letter word...

Just a guess, but about the way as conspiracy theorist did?

For some reason, some people seem to have a need for or just love to place labels on things and other people. Maybe it's because these labels can then be used to enforce divisions. Or to make all sorts of fast assumptions about where another person is coming from and then use those assumptions to either dismiss a person or a concept or information outright. Sometimes it's a convenient way to just avoid thinking too hard or being taken outside the comfort zone.

There's danger in doing labeling because the information might have value and might even go deeper than how it appears on the surface. If you start to make a habit of labeling and then ignoring based on labels (really your preconceptions about a person or the concept or subject), you might miss some really critical information.

[edit on 7/11/2010 by ~Lucidity]

Originally posted by InvisibleObserver
Are you allowed to be a believer and a debunker?

Or is that against the rules?

I find myself in this exact position. I help to debunk because what can't be debunked is worthy of everyone's time.

Originally posted by Student X
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Were any of your beliefs based on your personal experience, or reinforced by your experience? If so, could you describe the experiences please?

Or were your beliefs based on the surroundings you were born and raised in?

Beliefs based on personal experience I would say. Experiences with things such as hallucinogenic substances, ouija boards, etc. had me thinking some strange things and some of those experiences still resonate as quite odd indeed. However, employing objective thinking to subjective experience has caused me to shatter the beliefs that were formed from those experiences. I'm quite glad to have broken those spells of belief.

See,
This is what happens when people are given two extremes in belief or are forced to choose sides. They stop being intelligent and thoughtfull people who have their own beliefs and start acting much like hatefull kids in a schoolyard who hate someone else for their beliefs. It reminds me of watching friends who I know are basically the same rip into each other over political views.

Choose a side so we can argue with each other while we ignore reality.

Great

reply to post by badgerprints


Hi,

It's quite simple!

Religio = I believe

Strange there are so many wars.....even if the belief is in the god - the $.

Peace!

The staff has decided to refrain from "Us vs. Them" themed threads in this forum. Please continue to discuss these instances on a case-by-case basis.

Thank you!

Thread closed.