Atheism is a Cop-out

reply to post by Amagnon


I cannot change what I believe just in the hopes of raising the odds that I may be correct if there is no god or there is a god. I believe what I believe until I see proof that will alter that. Agnostic by your definition is a coward's bet with no real belief in anything. I am not knocking that but I cannot make my brain work that way. I cannot look at the sky and say it might be blue but then again, there might be evidence I am missing that could prove to me that it is really neon orange. I just cannot force myself to do that.

Therefor, I cannot be who I am - believe that no one has proven any god any more than dragons to me - as well as someone who thinks there might be a chance there is magical sky pasta watching over us all in perfect love and Parmesan.

reply to post by Amagnon

Always right? The answer to the real equation has yet to be seen.

We have to wait until our last breath leaves our body.

This was about 2 weeks ago.
found out this guy from my hood. I grew up with him always hang'in with me and his older brother, who was one of my best childhood friends.
They both never believed in God. Their parents brought them up not to believe in God.
Guess about five years ago the younger of the two decided life sucks and blew his brains out. So I'm convinced it's a cop-out, and an easy out, even a carry out.
I guess about two years before that. Their old man had done the same thing.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


You're saying since they never believed in God that they killed themselves? Am I right? Or you're saying they never had any morals because they were never brought up in a religious home? You're wrong on so many levels. That I'm surprised there are people like you in the world. Now that I see how religion is; I'm glad not to believe in God.

reply to post by randyvs


I know this guy, was a Christian. He was raised to believe in God. He ran a Christian charity. He got caught stealing from the charity and blew his brains out So I am convinced that is no better.

I know this couple, there were Christian. They were raised to believe in god. They contracted lyme disease. They were good Christian people but they suffered dearly for years. Eventually, they blew their brains out.

So ya know...pick and choose...pick and choose.

How about sexual deviants, want to run down that list too?

reply to post by Saul of Tarsus


Non-belief in god is a belief. That is in contrary howver to the assertion that any human can make regarding any "gods" so far revealed in any religion. YOu see , those gods have attributes , histories, philosophies and such as written by their diviners and books. Those gods can without any reasonable doubt have their existence curtailed into the realm of non-existence .



This is really simpleton logic for anyone who knows anything about belief systems. To make my point clear , you cannot prove nor disprove ANYTHING you have no device to measure , feel, or is abstract in interpretation. Is art art?


However once an idea gains attributes and philosophies it IS possible to either find them sound in reasoning and scope ,or in the contrary , send them to the wasting pits of deluded reasoning and non-existence.

We should be talking about WHY Atheist tend to dismiss the beliefs they do instead. Just like Atheists make their points on solid logical ground.

reply to post by Saul of Tarsus


Completely amazing! I totally agree with you. Religion is a partial blockage because it keeps you from reaching your full potential by holding you back, and atheism is just total crap because, and I am not joking, the very fact that atheists do not believe in free will and that we can create our own reality and that we have a spirit and that we can bring new ideas into the system stifles their growth completely. A lot of those things can be proven scientifically. What is creativity but reaching into the unknown and bringing into the world what wasn't here before?

Quantum physics and string theory completely explains how what you say is possible, however the atheist scientific community is totally being a pain in the ass about it. They won't be able to stonewall it forever, though.

And yes, there is probably an afterlife, and yes, there is probably a creator, a creating force of some kind.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

reply to post by K J Gunderson


Those are human faults...... just because I am an Atheist doesn't mean my psychological disposition stems from that belief! What the hell kinda backward logic is that to begin with.


Religions tend to do a lot of harm as they do a lot of good! Just like humans! It is not what people to , for the most part , but the beliefs that are in question!


Sometimes belief CAN and ultimately DOES contribute good and bad to societies.
Look at the good it does in prisons.... then look at the scandal of the Vatican. etc etc... We SHOULD BE DISCUSSING THE BELIEFS!

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

We SHOULD BE DISCUSSING THE BELIEFS!

Religion is just a philosophy for living life. Everyone has to have a philosophy to believe in bigger than themselves or else they just end up becoming clumps of dirt that react to what is around them. I agree, discussing the beliefs is a good idea. And so is believing in something.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

reply to post by darkbake


JUst keep on believing that sir. It will bite you in the ass. Physics does not explain ANYTHING about the spiritual condition even felt by ATHEISTS! And to ASSERT that Atheists do not believe in free will is preposterous! Free will is something that is weird and philosophers have been debating for ages.


You have free will eh? So what you are saying is that your soon to be effect has no prior cause? That is in direct violation of the "physics" you claim will solve everything!

Originally posted by darkbake

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

We SHOULD BE DISCUSSING THE BELIEFS!

Religion is just a philosophy for living life. Everyone has to have a philosophy to believe in bigger than themselves or else they just end up becoming clumps of dirt that react to what is around them. I agree, discussing the beliefs is a good idea. And so is believing in something.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

Actually anything thought of is no bigger than the person thinking it. That is all we are in reality.... clumps of ordinary matter postulating and reacting to event and stimuli around said matter. weird huh?

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by darkbake

 

JUst keep on believing that sir. It will bite you in the ass. Physics does not explain ANYTHING about the spiritual condition even felt by ATHEISTS! And to ASSERT that Atheists do not believe in free will is preposterous! Free will is something that is weird and philosophers have been debating for ages.


You have free will eh? So what you are saying is that your soon to be effect has no prior cause? That is in direct violation of the "physics" you claim will solve everything!

I researched and wrote a report on a quantum theory of mind that explains how free will could function. Yes, your soon to be choice has no prior cause because the choices that human beings make can be outside of the realm of causality.

So you believe in free will, yet... you don't think you can explain how it works with science or physics. Yet, being an atheist, you have no other resources at your disposal. How does that work?

I am afraid that it is your argument that makes no sense.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

Originally posted by IamBoon

Originally posted by darkbake

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

We SHOULD BE DISCUSSING THE BELIEFS!

Religion is just a philosophy for living life. Everyone has to have a philosophy to believe in bigger than themselves or else they just end up becoming clumps of dirt that react to what is around them. I agree, discussing the beliefs is a good idea. And so is believing in something.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

Actually anything thought of is no bigger than the person thinking it. That is all we are in reality.... clumps of ordinary matter postulating and reacting to event and stimuli around said matter. weird huh?

Not necessarily true. Our brains are set up so that we can access multiple futures and then choose which one that we would like to experience, this is how free will works. If you believe in something bigger than yourself, then you are able to move forward towards that goal.

Even if you do not believe this, I can guarantee that it works empirically. For example, take someone who decides they want to get straight A's one semester and sets goals and achieves them until he gets there. Someone else doesn't do this. Who is more likely to get better grades?

As far as philosophy goes, who is more likely to acheive the ideal granted to them by their chosen philosophy? Someone who believes and works towards that vision or someone who doesn't even know about it?

If you are up for it, you explain your theory of mind that attempts to make free will out of matter that just sits there and then I'll counter it with my theory of mind that explains how free will is made from quantum fields and we will see which one actually explains it.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

reply to post by darkbake


Really? Step outside your little ego box. First off , I just offered a VERY compelling argument against free-will and I know a few for it. Secondly , for quantum mechanics to work, or to have been put in place something needed to happen.


What caused particles? What was the precursor to the theory we now know as Quantum Physics?


Just because we cannot DETERMINE a cause does not mean anything about prior causality. And everything down the road to set that machine in motion is a byproduct of that fact. To deny causality in quantum physics read about it. Its authors are even puzzled by it and INSIST other forces or dimensions at work.

reply to post by darkbake


Too bad none of those goal are bigger than themselves .. Maybe i am getting too philisophical but, all those notion and ideas are just made by YOU ... they stem from your mind and therefore can never be any larger than the whole of your body (mind).

reply to post by IamBoon


But you just said you believed in free will.

And your argument against free will is that everything has causality. But what if there was a multi-dimensional structure that allowed us to choose the path we wished to take? In this case, determinism would still be in effect because every single possibility would already have been mapped out ahead of time but we would still be able to choose our own life experiences.

I am serious about that idea. So you can have something create that in the beginning, who knows what, and there you go. So our thoughts wouldn't really be outside of causality but for all intents and purposes they would appear to be according to the limited dimensions we are able to experience.

I apologize I don't mean to sound rude, I'm just presenting ideas to the table.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
reply to post by Amagnon

 

I cannot change what I believe just in the hopes of raising the odds that I may be correct if there is no god or there is a god. I believe what I believe until I see proof that will alter that. Agnostic by your definition is a coward's bet with no real belief in anything. I am not knocking that but I cannot make my brain work that way. I cannot look at the sky and say it might be blue but then again, there might be evidence I am missing that could prove to me that it is really neon orange. I just cannot force myself to do that.

Therefor, I cannot be who I am - believe that no one has proven any god any more than dragons to me - as well as someone who thinks there might be a chance there is magical sky pasta watching over us all in perfect love and Parmesan.

Well, because I have already seized the logical high ground with my previous arguments, I will continue in that vein. Allow me therefore, having proved my intrinsic 'rightness' (yes, I AM being ironic), to offer a rebuttal to your assertion of cowardice in the first instance - and confusion and lack of 'belief' - (which I will broadly interpret as being lack of conviction) in the second.

However, before launching into said rebuttal, I will first offer you some insights on your observations regarding the color of the sky.

The sky is any color you want it to be - it is any color that you say it is, because you exist in a private reality. You interact with a collective reality - but at the end of the day, the reality you experience is unique to you. For a nice clear example, I suggest watching the movie "A beautiful mind'.

When we interact with others, we do so through the medium of communication, which references 'agreed upon reality' - or collective reality. The fact that we use it to communicate, does not in any way confer any particular attributes of correctness to it.

Lets reference that wonderful cliche that is always introduced when discussing such topics, namely is the world is flat or spherical? Well, as has been noted it seems that a lot of people thought it might be flat - and such was agreed reality. It didn't make it right, but to make claims to the contrary was to exit agreed reality - and to visit the realms of the fairies.

So while you look at the sky, and say - "It's blue." I look at whatever it is, and say "That's amazing." If someone asks me what color the sky is, I respond by referencing agreed reality and respond "Blue." Inside my head, I know I am being arrogant assuming I even know what 'blue' is, let alone 'sky'.

Therefore, with respect to your charge of cowardice, I offer a counter charge - namely arrogance.

Additionally, it is easy to see that it requires more courage to live in an alien and unfamiliar place than to inhabit a familiar one. This is one of the driving reasons for people to have beliefs - it makes them feel safe, and yields a sense of power over the environment.

Regarding the charge of lack of belief, guilty as charged - but only with respect to physical reality. In terms of conceptual beliefs, I have plenty of them, and many things I am passionate about - arising from my overly developed sense of justice.

In your example of the sky being blue - I don't know, nor does anyone else know, what is 'sky' and what is 'blue' - we know only in the context of being human beings, and that by definition introduces the aspect of limited observational capacity, knowledge and plain fallibility.

The less you believe, the less filters you apply to incoming data - the less bias you introduce to observations. The better equipped you are to understand.

Socrates, not famous for being a village idiot, once famously reflected (paraphrasing); If I know one thing, it is that I know nothing and I barely know that.

reply to post by IamBoon


That is not necessarily true at all. How do you think religions and cultures form? What about the Nazis, or Communism, or Democracy, or Nationalism? All of these causes are bigger than one person alone and rely on multiple people working together to form the common cause, thus making it by definition bigger than yourself.

As far as believing in a philosophy goes, if your philosophy is something that was created and passed down through generations of people who worked on perfecting it, it is still bigger than yourself. It is still something that you can believe in and work towards that is bigger than who you are today. Even if you dream of having a rock band, it is something bigger than who you are today that you can be tomorrow. If you do not believe this is possible, that is sad, and what the OP meant by atheism stunting our growth.

If you believe that it is possible to have a vision for tomorrow bigger than who you are today and achieve it by believing in it, then we are simply arguing over our descriptions but really believe the same thing.

I just thought of something. Here, I'll give you an example. Did you know that when reptiles are born, they start life out alone? This means that they do not have parents to pass culture onto and whatever life they experience, they have to start from scratch. They learn their limited life lessons, and then they die, not passing them on to any others.

Humans are different because when our children are born, we teach them the culture so that they can then add to it during their lifetime. Culture is even written down in texts over the years so that it can grow. When you are born, you are able to learn language, art, science, music, all kinds of amazing things that exist because it took unified will and people building on each other to create.


[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Those are human faults...... just because I am an Atheist doesn't mean my psychological disposition stems from that belief! What the hell kinda backward logic is that to begin with.

No offense but if you follow along, that is exactly the point I was making. Randy tried to say this killed blew his brains out just because he was raised an atheist. I was pointing out that you can apply that kind of logic to anyone, anywhere that ever ended their life.

Ask Randy what kind of backward logic it is.

Religions tend to do a lot of harm as they do a lot of good! Just like humans! It is not what people to , for the most part , but the beliefs that are in question!

What is not what people do? I could care less what you believe while you are stealing from me.

Sometimes belief CAN and ultimately DOES contribute good and bad to societies.
Look at the good it does in prisons.... then look at the scandal of the Vatican. etc etc... We SHOULD BE DISCUSSING THE BELIEFS!

Apparently beliefs belong to criminals and child molesters? Your post seems a little rambling and begins on shaky ground. Maybe try again later.

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by darkbake

 

Really? Step outside your little ego box. First off , I just offered a VERY compelling argument against free-will and I know a few for it. Secondly , for quantum mechanics to work, or to have been put in place something needed to happen.

Well, I explained how to get around your first causality argument. And yes, something had to happen so that quantum mechanics could work in the first place. If you have other arguments against free will, go for it I would like to hear them. But I still thought you believed in free will.

Once again, I do apologize for the lack of social skills I'm experiencing atm.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by darkbake]