The original Church

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

That means the whole church, not just one denomination but all of them.

Wouldnt that be Universal? from then untill now there has been only one and that would be it!!! CATHOLIC....

Yes, there is only one church.
But I deny your right to limit the word "church" to the Catholic portion of it.
In a sense, the Roman Catholic community is not a church at all.
It is a fragment of the church, which is misusing language in order to make a claim to exclusive ownership of the name "church".



[edit on 12-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

I believe the original church was Nazarene , an Essene denomination. Myrtales Instinct is correct in stating that after Yeshua's Ascension James (his brother) , whom he named for the succession became the leader , ahem (not Paul).

The original church was born on Pentacost in Jerusalem.

Mandatory second line.

Originally posted by oliveoil
...from then untill now there has been only one and that would be it!!! CATHOLIC....

"...our Church boasts of an unbroken line of legitimate successors of St. Peter who stand in the stead of Christ We must always remember that one of the official titles of the pope, first taken by Pope Gregory the Great is 'Servant of the Servants of God.'"

Catholic pages

Hang in there oliveoil.

Originally posted by oliveoil
I guess it is safe to say that the Catholic Church is the original, thus being the true Church that Jesus established.

Safe to say on ATS? You are truely a brave soul.

[edit on 12-7-2010 by csimon]

reply to post by oliveoil

You're welcome and the Peace of Christ to you also!
I have a feeling that this thread is going to be a long road.

Originally posted by De La Valletta
I believe the original church was Nazarene , an Essene denomination. Myrtales Instinct is correct in stating that after Yeshua's Ascension James (his brother) , whom he named for the succession became the leader , ahem (not Paul).

To this I would have to add that the term "Essene" preceded the arrival of Jesus and that there is evidence that such a sect taught a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.

Also, the Gnostics claimed to be the original followers of Jesus, teaching that the "resurrection" is a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'; and that Paul and the official Christian religious establishment turned the Teaching of Jesus upside down by teaching the Doctrine of "resurrection" as the Pharisaical doctrine of the physical raising of a dead body from the grave.

So, once again, the question of what is the original church comes down to a question of what the Teaching of Jesus was about the Doctrine of "resurrection".

If he taught it as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth', the Gnostics and, much later, the Albigensians of southern France (who the Roman church exterminated by the tens of thousands) were the original church and Paul and the Pharisee-Christians are an heretical church.

That is what the argument comes down to.

I am continuing the presentation of this argument on the thread "Resurrection" & 'Rebirth', so as not to disrupt this thread any more.

Michael Cecil

reply to post by Michael Cecil

Yes the Essenes were prior to Yeshua , while the Nazarenes were contempories and post to him. It , the Nazarene sect is considered an offshoot of the essenes and a fore-runner of Christianity as we know it , mayhaps it be the pure church.

reply to post by oliveoil


Wrong. Jesus was totally against the kind of idolatry, ritual and money changer ideals of the Catholic Church.

If you would like to get a view of the original church look to the Acts of the apostles..

There should never be a liturgy, church is lead by the Holy Spirit not by man. Church's in the early day were house to house. They also clapped in praise of the Lord, Spoke in tongues, laid hands on people for healing.........All things that do not happen at a Catholic Church..........

reply to post by oliveoil

Wouldnt Christs church be Universal? from then untill now there has been only one and that would be it!!! CATHOLIC....

I don't have any issue with individual Catholics most are very sincere people, but I have huge issue's with the Clergy and Vatican leadership of Catholicism.

Here is why.

Catholics In Action

A Picture Tells the Tale

Questionable History

[edit on 12-7-2010 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by De La Valletta
reply to post by Michael Cecil

 

Yes the Essenes were prior to Yeshua , while the Nazarenes were contempories and post to him. It , the Nazarene sect is considered an offshoot of the essenes and a fore-runner of Christianity as we know it , mayhaps it be the pure church.

But speculation in this regard is not particularly helpful; especially when the documents found at Nag Hammadi--like the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Mary, the Treatise On Resurrection, and the Apocalypse of Peter--explain very clearly that Jesus taught a Doctrine of 'Rebirth' and that Paul and the Pharisee Christians were the heretics teaching the doctrines of demons...

The proof of which is the Holocaust.

But, even 65 years later, millions of Christians are still blind to this.

Michael Cecil

What do the Essenes have to do with the "original church"? I don't pretend to know Gnosticism very well so please forgive my ignorance. The book that I've read a few times of Nag Hammadhi actually believes that the books were maintained and left behind by the Maccabbeans. But whether the Essenes or Maccabeans were in charge of the books doesn't clarify anything to me.

After reading through most of the "ressurection" & "rebirth" thread I am beginning to understand this point of view. I have only read a Catholic version of the Bible, a book of Dead Sea Scrolls, and a book of the Nag Hammadhi Library in english. Other books I have read are not mentioned.




[edit on 14-7-2010 by csimon]

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by Locoman8

 

The Roman Catholic church was founded by Simon Magus, not Simon Peter. Magus posed as Peter and became the first pope.

PLEASE SHOW ME PROOF!!! this is sheer nonsense...Why cant you except the truth..embrace it...lol

What happened to you Oliveoil? One day you're speaking of the keeping of the true sabbath and the next day you're following in the great apostasy of the Catholic Church. Do you not know that the true Church of God is a "small flock?" How is the 'universal' church... the largest sect of christianity considered a small flock? Why does the Catholic Church replace the true Holy Days (Passover, Pentacost, Tabernacles, etc.) with adaptations of old pagan holidays (valentines day, easter, st. patty's day, halloween, christmas). Why does the Catholic Church replace the true Sabbath with the day the pagans worship the sun? The kool-aid is not being stirred right my friend.... and the Catholic Church along with her protestant counterparts are the ones doing the stirring.

Originally posted by Locoman8

The Roman Catholic church was founded by Simon Magus, not Simon Peter. Magus posed as Peter and became the first pope.

None of the comments made in your follow-up post do anything towards proving this claim.
Do they?
Oliveoil asked you to prove that Magus posed as Peter and founded the Roman catholic church. This is a historical point. Give us some good history.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38


There should never be a liturgy, church is lead by the Holy Spirit not by man. Church's in the early day were house to house. They also clapped in praise of the Lord, Spoke in tongues, laid hands on people for healing

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head there. But then again, it doesn't matter what denomination you are, you can still do this regardless.

So that I'm not in here posting double info, I lead you to one of my earliest threads on ATS for your proof on the Simon Peter/Simon Magus mixup.

St. Peter of Rome is really Simon Magus the Sorcerer!
www.abovetopsecret.com...



It gives more understanding to why St. Peter was in Rome to begin with when the biblical records and historic records shows us no such occurance happened. From this very fact there seems to be a gap in truths with the Roman Catholic Church.

As BlueJay said, I'm not against those who are of the catholic religion, I am against the establishment/foundation of this "universal" church.

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.-1Cor15.45

the Most High does not live in houses made by men. As the prophet says-Acts7.48

There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, the holy place where the Most High dwells.-Ps46.4

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.-Gen1.27

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven-Ecc3.1

Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.-Rom14.4

Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.-Luke22

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.-2Cor3.17

For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?-1Cor10.29

Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.-Gal3.15

" 'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'-Dan4.17

For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.-Matt18.20

"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.-Matt18.18

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.-Rev22.17


[edit on by No King but Jesus]

It was called The Way

(Acts 9:1-2) 9 But Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, in order that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to THE WAY, both men and women."

(Acts 19:9) 9 But when some went on hardening themselves and not believing, speaking injuriously about THE WAY before the multitude, he withdrew from them and separated the disciples from them, daily giving talks in the school [auditorium] of Ty·ran′nus. . ".

(Acts 22:3-5) . . .. 4 And I persecuted this WAY to the death, binding and handing over to prisons both men and women, 5 as both the high priest and all the assembly of older men . . ."

(Acts 24:14) 14 But I do admit this to you, that, according to THE WAY that they call a ‘sect,’ in this manner I am rendering sacred service to the God of my forefathers, as I believe all the things set forth in the Law and written in the Prophets; "

The Way, then became Christians

(Acts 11:26) 26 and, after he found him, he brought him to Antioch. It thus came about that for a whole year they gathered together with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called CHRISTIANS."


What is the way? It is adhering to a way or manner of life that centered around faith in Jesus Christ, following his example.

(John 14:15) 15 “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments. . ."
(John 15:17) 17 “These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another. "
(Matthew 28:19) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations. . ."
(Acts 5:42) 42 And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus."
(Acts 20:20-21) 20 while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house. 21 But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus. . ."

But then apostasy took over, and the christian faith was absorbed in the world, and politics distorted beliefs

(2 Peter 2:1-2) 2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. "
(Jude 11-13) 11 Too bad for them, because they have gone in the path of Cain, and have rushed into the erroneous course of Ba′laam for reward, and have perished in the rebellious talk of Ko′rah! 12 These are the rocks hidden below water in YOUR love feasts while they feast with YOU, shepherds that feed themselves without fear; waterless clouds carried this way and that by winds; trees in late autumn, [but] fruitless, having died twice, having been uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea that foam up their own causes for shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackness of darkness stands reserved forever."

False teachings, and idolotry seeped back into pure worship

And Babylon the Great soon was born

(Revelation 17:5-6) . . . “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.” 6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.. . .

Babylon the Great, The World Empire of False Religion

So...
(Revelation 18:4) . . .“Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins. . .

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom
and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called CHRISTIANS."

The disciples were not called Christians by "divine providence"...

"And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."...

no mention of "divine providence". The term "Christian" was invented by the heathen and was used as a reproach.

reply to post by soleprobe


Hmmm
I'll have to look into that a bit further...
It could be =
(Matthew 24:9) . . .and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. . .

Looking again at the translation I used for the quotation...the term by "by divine providence" has the footnote 'or were named'
Checking as many translations/versions as I could find...in context...I did not find any hints that this was a slang, or derogotory term, howerer, only a couple versions used the term 'divine providence', most translations/versions used 'were first called christians in Antioch'...or something very similar to that.

so...could you help me understand how this was a slang or derogotory term?

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom
so...could you help me understand how this was a slang or derogotory term?

The easiest way to understand is by the teachings of Christ. The Lord made it very clear how His brothers, the children of God would be identified, “You will know them by their fruits.” To know one by their fruits requires time. Now since those who follow Christ are imitators of Christ they know that Christ never called himself a Christian; Christ never called his followers Christians. The apostles never called each other Christians. The disciples called each other, "brethren", "disciples", "apostles", "servants", "believers", "followers", "the faithful", "the elect", "the called", and "saints." Some also identified themselves as "bondservants" of Christ, but none called themselves Christian

The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch not by other disciples but by the residents of Antioch who were believers in their gods. They would never give an affectionate term to those who worshiped other gods than their own.

As time went on more and more unbelievers used this name to heap scorn and persecution on those who followed “the Way” to the point that this word was synonymous with suffering to the disciples until the only time in scripture the word is used by a man of God is in 1 Peter 4:16, “Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

To suffer as a Christian, because that was the name used to curse those of “the Way”, did not mean one is a Christian. If some one is called a derogatory name because of their nationality, they may suffer as one bearing that derogatory name but they are not that derogatory name.