The original Church

reply to post by oliveoil
Ah, indeed, the first church that Jesus started. You have hit a very tender part of my heart.

Most people think of the church as the building on the corner that has services and worships God. This is , of course, not true.

Others think of the church as a denomination such as Catholic, Methodist, Baptist and many more religions.

After many years of immersing myself in the Methodist religion I finally realized what a farce an organized church is.

You want to be close to demons and devils then go to a church building and attend services regularly.

After serving on various committees, singing in choirs, teaching Sunday School Classes, heading the youth department and doing much mission work out of the USA while 'belonging 'to a specific so called church I finally woke up and realized many things.

I found people that put on the robe of christianity when they entered the church building and took it off on the way out of the building after the services.

I found a house of thieves, liars, adulterers and many other members filled with horrid sins even to horrible for even me to ever have committed. And believe me I have sinned much in my life and still do.

Oh you say, "There is aways room for one more hypocrite."

The difference between me and those demonic spirits is that they do not own their sin and are just playing the church game.

I fully admit I have sinned and will sin again and again. I am a human and a child of God. It's our nature to sin.


As a Christan I believe we all sin and come short of the glory of God. That is why I am ever so thankful we have Jesus and His forgiveness.
We that follow the teachings of Jesus know we must die to sin daily in asking for forgiveness.

Now to the point in question. The church is the people of God. It is not a denomination or a building.

The Word of God was spoken in small groups of people as it will be again when it will not be safe to attend religious services.

I saw this in Russia many, many years ago. I knew then that one day there would be more freedom of religion in Russia than my own country.

With everything that is within me I believe we will one day hide in someones home or in a forest to worship our God.

The true church of Jesus was and is the people that love and worship Him.

Originally posted by oliveoil
What would be the true original church(the one Jesus established) as it is today?.All searches and findings lead me to the Universal Church which is still in existence today.I guess it is safe to say that the Catholic Church is the original,thus being the true Church that Jesus established.

The Roman Catholic church did not appear until after Constantine 300 AD.

The word 'church' is a made up word that is neither a translation or a transliteration of the original Greek word ἐκκλησία.

This word pronounced ek-klay-see'-ah means a group or gathering of people...
...and does not refer to a denomination/religious organization or building.

Jesus original church was a group of people who were indwelt by the Spirit of Jesus who was both Lord and Messiah...
...but this spiritual definition was swallowed up by religious formalism...
...and became socio/political human organization(s).

The original church still exists and consists of people from all ethnic backgrounds and social structures...
...and we know who we are.

reply to post by troubleshooter


Yes we do know who we are.

Star and flag for you.

Edit to add: Silly me I forgot I cannot flag you. But I would if I could.

And they will know we are Christains by our love.

[edit on 7-7-2010 by dizziedame]

Sorry Friend I disagree , the Catholic church has nothing to do with Christ . While I agree with you that Peter founded this church and this church masks it's self behind the veil of Christ , it is the complete opposite .Peter always challanged Christ ! Peter wanted control , He dispised Christ and held him responsible for the death of his son Judas Iscariot .Yes His son ! and yes the one who betrayed Christ . You notice in horror movies , be it the devil , a demon or a vampire they all hate the cross and frequently turn it upside down .Hence the upside down cross is the symbol of the Anti-Christ . Research Peters Crucifiction , you will find He was crucified upon a upside down cross .Upright =Christ / Upside down = Antichrist .Does that symbology not make common sense to anybody ? Positive verses negative , good vs evil , light/dark , ying/yang or polar opposites . Does this not make even basic sense to a rock ? Somethings are just lost on people .Do not forget that Peter denied Christ 3 times . Why 3 times ? How many were crucified on that day ? The so called criminal that cursed at Christ from the cross was Judas .Yes Judas !He was arrested when he through the 30 pieces of silver back at those who paid him and he joined Christ at the crucifiction . This is lost on people because of the verses of Judas buying farmland where nothing would grow ! This is a expression for the graveyard .Where do you think the expression of he bought the farm came from when some one passes . It is meant the same as kicking the bucket . Also it is lost on people that if Judas bought land with his pieces of silver how could he have thrown them back at the priesthood ????? It is eluded to that he committed suicide from guilt . Well yes he did ! With guilt he went back to those whom paid him to betray Christ and through the silver back at them . He put himself back in the reach of the preisthood and that was his suicide .
Don't believe me about Peter and Judas , well it is right there in the New Testament . One sentance in plain sight for all those with eyes to see and ears to hear . One sentance that mentions Simon Iscariot ! aka . Simon Peter .Find it for yourselves , for it is not my job to arm anyone to argue with Me now is it ?????? Christ referred to Peter as the devil once also in the New Testament in a dismissive gesture . Do you truely believe that a peaceful universal Christ would approve of the barbaric acts of the Popes , with the crusades ? or would approve of the churches wealth while children starve ?

[edit on 7-7-2010 by 13th Zodiac]

Originally posted by oliveoil
What would be the true original church(the one Jesus established) as it is today?.All searches and findings lead me to the Universal Church which is still in existence today.I guess it is safe to say that the Catholic Church is the original,thus being the true Church that Jesus established.

There is a huge word play going on here.

Start at verse 16:

Matthew 16:13 Then Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Caesarea Philippi was a centre of pagan worship...
...there was a huge rock face there...
...and images of gods were placed in crevices in this rock face...
...and it was lit with lamps at night.

It was near here that Jesus had this interchange with his disciples...
...it was a parable with a word play on the location...
...and on Peter's name which meant 'stone'...
...and then Jesus says the following...

Matthew 16:17 "...flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Jesus is saying that Peter recieved confirmation about who He was...
...directly from 'my Father'.

So Jesus is contrasting this rock, the centre of pagan worship...
...then introduces the word play of Peter (Cephas) meaning rock confirming who confirms who He was...
...and the 'rock' that Jesus group (ἐκκλησία) was to be built upon...
...that is, Jesus and direct communication between God and man.

Matthew 16:18 "...upon this rock I will build my church;"

Until this time communication between man and God was mediated through a guantlet of blood sacrifices and priests...
...but Jesus 'church' would be established on direct communication...
...the Spirit dwelling within man as it was intended before the fall.

I know Roman Catholics like to spin this another way...
...but the text makes the intent very clear...
...and anyone who knows the Spirit personally will know what it means.

Here is something for you: the oldest church and monastery is in egypt attested to have marcan succession. Guess how these monks pray in their church as a direct tradition since Mark: they prostrate (put the head on the ground) not before a cross but before a stone cube.

Now guess who else does that today...

Originally posted by oliveoil
.All searches and findings lead me to the Universal Church which is still in existence today.I guess it is safe to say that the Catholic Church is the original,

I would agree with you, using the definition you provide in the first sentence quoted.
I'm afraid I would have to disagree with you on the definition in your second sentence.
What is happening, you see, is that you are unconsciously swapping definitions in the middle of your argument.

All early Christians would agree that the Church Universal, descended from the earliest disciples, was the true church.
The flaw in the argument is the assumption that this church, which is "catholic" in the true sense or the word, can be identified exclusively with the Roman Catholic Church in the world today, which accepts the authority of the Pope.

Accepting the authority of the Pope is not essential to membership of the truly catholic church.
The Lutherans, Anglicans, etc, renounced the authority of the Pope without ceasing to be part of the catholic church.
And apart from that, the Christian church east of Italy was NEVER under the authority of the Pope, which was actually a comparatively late development. The Orthodox church is as much part of the church catholic as anybody else.

The Church is not any one denomination. The Church is what one Anglican prayer describes as "The blessed company of all faithful people".

[edit on 8-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

The Church of God is the original church founded in 31 AD on Pentacost. Read Acts chapter 2. The Church of God is so named 12 times in the new testament. The Roman Catholic church was founded by Simon Magus, not Simon Peter. Magus posed as Peter and became the first pope. This is why you see so many pagan-like traditions in the catholic church. Magus was a sorcerer. Read Acts chapter 8.

Originally posted by Locoman8
The Church of God is the original church founded in 31 AD on Pentacost. Read Acts chapter 2. The Church of God is so named 12 times in the new testament. The Roman Catholic church was founded by Simon Magus, not Simon Peter. Magus posed as Peter and became the first pope. This is why you see so many pagan-like traditions in the catholic church. Magus was a sorcerer. Read Acts chapter 8.

Why, what happened in 31 AD?

Locoman is right about Pentacost, that's when God began to chose his own by direct holy spirit that was physically seen, and they then had the ability to suddenly speak other languages to spread the gospel far and wide.

Jesus predicted a great apostasy after he and apostles died. And after the Apostle Paul died that's exactly what happened.
The apostates would be in the majority, and they would persecute those on the cramped and narrow path to life.

Guess who?

Here is a clue, it was the state religion.

Let me suggest here that the issue of "church" is comparatively peripheral.

What is really crucially important here is what the Teaching of Jesus consisted of.

And that involves an understanding of the original separation between the Christian church--ultimately, the Roman church--and what are now referred to as the Gnostics on the basis of their different understandings of the Doctrine of "resurrection"; as argued by Robinson in the Introduction to The Nag Hammadi Codices in English

The Christians, following the Pharisee Paul, taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as the raising of a dead physical body from the grave.

As outlined in The Treatise On Resurrection found at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, however, the Gnostics taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth' consisting of a 'physical resurrection' (referring to a physical 'rebirth'), a 'psychic resurrection' (referring to the revelation of the memories of previous lives) and a 'spiritual resurrection' (referring to the Revelation of the Memory of Creation--Genesis 2:7--and the consciousness of man at the Moment of Creation (Genesis 1:27).

Thus, it makes much more sense that Jesus had to be eliminated because he threatened both the Sadducees' outright denial of the Doctrine of "resurrection" and the Pharisees' misinterpretation of that Doctrine as the physical raising of a dead body from the grave.

This is why I have started a thread to discuss the censorship of the Truth about the Doctrine of "resurrection" entitled "Resurrection" & 'Rebirth'.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
Let me suggest here that the issue of "church" is comparatively peripheral.

However, the issue of "church" is the actual topic of the thread.

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Why, what happened in 31 AD?

Let's see.... The Last Supper/Passover Meal, the crucifixion and death of Christ, the burial of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the accention of Christ, the day the Christian Church began on Pentacost that year shortly after Christ accended into heaven, Peter's first sermon as the Holy Spirit fell upon the people on Pentacost..... hmmmm anything else? Plenty more. But you get the point.

reply to post by Locoman8

The Roman Catholic church was founded by Simon Magus, not Simon Peter. Magus posed as Peter and became the first pope.

PLEASE SHOW ME PROOF!!! this is sheer nonsense...Why cant you except the truth..embrace it...lol

reply to post by oliveoil

Originally posted by oliveoil

What would be the true original church(the one Jesus established) as it is today?.All searches and findings lead me to the Universal Church which is still in existence today.I guess it is safe to say that the Catholic Church is the original,thus being the true Church that Jesus established.

The church that Jesus talks about in the bible, is not about one particular denomination being more authentic/original over another one or a literal building. Jesus is talking about a church that is made in spirit, in the body of Christ. It has nothing to do with a chosen group or a particular Christian church denomination. IMO When you believe in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit, you become part of the church/body of Christ, regardless of which denomination you belong to.

I mean, which church denomination, can honestly stand up and say that it has the complete truth, regarding every aspect of the Christian faith. I don’t think many would be so bold as to make that claim.

We need to stop looking at things as, this church vs that church or, this or that church is the true/chosen one. Yes it is important to discuss various doctrinal and historic points, regarding Christianity but at the end of the day, we all believe in Jesus, which to me, is the most important thing.


- JC

This is what happened:


The Religion of Jesus became the Religion about Jesus.


And that is why we have all this mess today ...

The background was :
* the mystery schools - secret initiations to meet the goods (astral travel perhaps)
* the theme of emanations from the godhead - lesser layers of God that could connect to the lower physical worlds

Then, the original Christian church was started by PAUL -

Paul had a vision, astral travel, schizophrenia - something. Paul saw that a higher being Iesous Christos was IN each of us - sort of like a soul and had been crucified in heaven to bring us salvation on earth. Paul wrote at length about his visions of the Risen Christ - a spiritual being.

But there was no historical Jesus at all. Paul talks about a spiritual being. Then his words were twisted and corrupted.

Then, some other writer who knew :
* the son-of-god legends
* ancient literature
* Jewish scriptures
* Paul's writings
wrote what we now call the Gospel of Mark.

G.Mark was a marvelous book of spiritual literature - people loved it, and spread it, and copied it and talked about it.

Other Gospels copied and followed G.Mark. Other people wrote stories as if they were written by people IN the stories (Peter, Jude, etc.)

THEN,
long long after the alleged events, SOME people started believing that G.Mark was HISTORY ! Whoops.



Kap


[edit on 12-7-2010 by Kapyong]

[edit on 12-7-2010 by Kapyong]

reply to post by oliveoil

I am with you oliveoil. I have a couple of things to say. The Catholic Church is the only church that has access to true grace through her sacraments. Christ said what ever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven, and what ever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven. This is the direct link to the Church's power to give grace through her sacraments (Confession and Holy Communion). You are not confessing your sins to a person, but to Christ Himself.

The Church is a human institution and so it will have human mistakes made by her people, but She will endure until the end of time because She was founded by Christ.

Why is it that only a Catholic priest can cast out demons through exorcisms? That power right there tells me where the true Church is. Also her Latin means that She will never change because Latin cannot change. The Natural Laws of medicine, all the sciences and the legal profession are all based on Latin. All unchanging.

Originally posted by Starbug3MY
Christ said what ever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven, and what ever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven.

Christ did not say this to "the Catholic Church". He said it to the church.
That means the whole church, not just one denomination but all of them.
Every single individual person who belongs to Christ belongs, by definition, to the Church.

What you are trying to do is to limit the word "The Church" to the Roman Catholic branch of the church, and that is not legitimate.

reply to post by DISRAELI

That means the whole church, not just one denomination but all of them.

Christ did not say this to "the Catholic Church". He said it to the church.

Wouldnt Christs church be Universal? from then untill now there has been only one and that would be it!!! CATHOLIC....
Thank you and peace to you Starbug3MY WOW!!!!!!!
Cant express my thoughts....
[edit on 12-7-2010 by oliveoil]

[edit on 12-7-2010 by oliveoil]