Undeniable Proof?

reply to post by Conclusion


Absolutely - proof to me would change my world. Good luck with finding it though, I spent time trying to imagine what an alien could show me or an experiance I could have that could prove the existance of a creator. No such luck :-)
Currently I recognise 5 seperate beliefs systems as being undeniable (meaning I can not imagine an event that could prove them to be wrong) It might be a bit mean to say that I consider belief to be inappropropriate to the human condition (we are in the bubble of the created) but I truely respect everyones right to follow their belief and I respect them for trusting themselves enough for having them.

This thread reminds me my first really intense psychedelic experience(because of rules, Ill leave it at that) because it was the ultimate disclosure for me. (Please note, Im not trying to debate, I am just stating my beliefs) I learned of our own divine nature, the fractal nature of reality, our galactic family and citizenship in intelligent infinity etc. God is not something external of yourself, god is not an "other", there is no king-like god figure who rules people with an iron fist from a throne. That day, which for me was undeniable proof(not really proof of a god in the typical religious sense), did change me completely, my ego pretty much died. The biggest change for me is I dont fear death anymore, people dont believe me when I say that but its true. I know (again, just stating my beliefs, do not want to debate) that consciousness simply inhabits your physical body, thats all, there is no such thing as death as far as consciousness goes. The other change is Im at peace with whatever happens, I dont worry about anything. To know god, know yourself!

reply to post by Conclusion


If i was faced with Undeniable Proof - i would respond with an Unprovable denial of the proof!

Naaa .....

If i was given undeniable proof .......& if that was the conclusion i had come to after surveying the evidence. Jesus would have my attention shall we say.

post by Conclusion

Would you follow him or just go on with your life as before?

Going on with your life as before just wouldn`t be an option in my humble option.

post by Conclusion

Would you follow him

I would first have many questions that would need answering ........ so i would need a little face time with the Messiah .

What, i wonder, are the thoughts of theists, should there ever be undeniable proof that their chosen deity does not exist ?


[edit on 4-7-2010 by UmbraSumus]

reply to post by UmbraSumus


Yes that is an excellent question. Starred ya.

I am not sure if faced with undeniable proof that their was not a creator what I would do. I know a lonely feeling would envelope my whole body. Man. That would be very hard to deal with. Again great response and great question.

It would change things for none of you. Jesus came and raised the dead, healed the blind and the lame. Said He was the Son of God and did many many miracles that are not even recorded in the Bible...but they didn't believe Him. Why would you be any different?
Seeashrink

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by UmbraSumus

 

Yes that is an excellent question. Starred ya.

I am not sure if faced with undeniable proof that their was not a creator what I would do. I know a lonely feeling would envelope my whole body. Man. That would be very hard to deal with. Again great response and great question.

One of the big questions for me is what makes the believer and the non-believer so different. Us "non-believers" so to speak, aren't really scared or lonely. I want to know what it is that makes us accept it, and others get emotional.

I realize humans really aren't all that special. We are no more special than a dolphin, or an ape. We just have more neural connections, and are more evolved.

What environmental factors are put in that make the believer and the non-believer? Is it genetics? Is it how you where raised as a child church wise?

Here you go, you get a glimpse into my thoughts.

reply to post by seeashrink


Based on what? The Bible?

Have you ever seen anything like that in your life? It's a myth. There are books about dragons and fairies too, but the fact they've been written about do not make them real.

There is simply NO evidence that such events took place.

Originally posted by Tryptych
reply to post by seeashrink

 

Based on what? The Bible?

Have you ever seen anything like that in your life? It's a myth. There are books about dragons and fairies too, but the fact they've been written about do not make them real.

There is simply NO evidence that such events took place.

Harry Potter holds as much proof. You could very easily assume there is a magic castle in the middle of the UK that you can't see because it is magic, and it is a school for wizards where they hide there magic from muggles. You just simply can't prove me wrong that there is no Hogwarts.

Originally posted by Phlynx

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by UmbraSumus

 

Yes that is an excellent question. Starred ya.

I am not sure if faced with undeniable proof that their was not a creator what I would do. I know a lonely feeling would envelope my whole body. Man. That would be very hard to deal with. Again great response and great question.

One of the big questions for me is what makes the believer and the non-believer so different. Us "non-believers" so to speak, aren't really scared or lonely. I want to know what it is that makes us accept it, and others get emotional.

I realize humans really aren't all that special. We are no more special than a dolphin, or an ape. We just have more neural connections, and are more evolved.

What environmental factors are put in that make the believer and the non-believer? Is it genetics? Is it how you where raised as a child church wise?

Here you go, you get a glimpse into my thoughts.

I do not believe we are different. I believe that it is more of thinking different. Myself for instance. I just find it irrational to think that we were not created because of the time it would take for evolution to take place. To go from a single cell organism to all the life that we see today would take longer than the 3.5 to 4 billion years that mainstream scientist to claim. And with all the life on this earth the apparent preference that evolution has shown to man to let him rule this world seems to pre-determined. There is no proof of a species evolving into another species, yet this is taught as fact. So I don't believe it is environmental factors that make us different. We just look at things different.

Originally posted by Tryptych
reply to post by seeashrink

 

Based on what? The Bible?

Have you ever seen anything like that in your life? It's a myth. There are books about dragons and fairies too, but the fact they've been written about do not make them real.

There is simply NO evidence that such events took place.

Of course that would also mean that any such book relating to history are wrong.

reply to post by Phlynx


I'm not familiar what a "Hogwart" is, but the only difference is that the Bible is considered to be true, while Harry Potter admits being fiction.

But I'm not trying to destroy anyones faith, just trying to explain that Christ story is a myth, borrowed from other (pagan) religions. The Bible, however (like I said) full of allegories that definitely have a meaning. The way I see it, it's not to be taken literally.

Originally posted by Conclusion

Originally posted by Phlynx

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by UmbraSumus

 

Yes that is an excellent question. Starred ya.

I am not sure if faced with undeniable proof that their was not a creator what I would do. I know a lonely feeling would envelope my whole body. Man. That would be very hard to deal with. Again great response and great question.

One of the big questions for me is what makes the believer and the non-believer so different. Us "non-believers" so to speak, aren't really scared or lonely. I want to know what it is that makes us accept it, and others get emotional.

I realize humans really aren't all that special. We are no more special than a dolphin, or an ape. We just have more neural connections, and are more evolved.

What environmental factors are put in that make the believer and the non-believer? Is it genetics? Is it how you where raised as a child church wise?

Here you go, you get a glimpse into my thoughts.

I do not believe we are different. I believe that it is more of thinking different. Myself for instance. I just find it irrational to think that we were not created because of the time it would take for evolution to take place. To go from a single cell organism to all the life that we see today would take longer than the 3.5 to 4 billion years that mainstream scientist to claim. And with all the life on this earth the apparent preference that evolution has shown to man to let him rule this world seems to pre-determined. There is no proof of a species evolving into another species, yet this is taught as fact. So I don't believe it is environmental factors that make us different. We just look at things different.

Actually it is 4.5 billion years, which species arrived about 1 billion years ago.

Quick question, dinosaurs go extinct, some survive. Why don't we see them today? You believe we don't evolve, so I want to hear your conclusion, Conclusion (get it? ).

If these animals we have today where with the dinosaurs we would have found fossils side by side, no?



[edit on 4-7-2010 by Phlynx]

Originally posted by Conclusion

Originally posted by Tryptych
reply to post by seeashrink

 

Based on what? The Bible?

Have you ever seen anything like that in your life? It's a myth. There are books about dragons and fairies too, but the fact they've been written about do not make them real.

There is simply NO evidence that such events took place.

Of course that would also mean that any such book relating to history are wrong.

I have to admit, the Bible does have some historical accuracy, but you have to be very picky/choosy.

Originally posted by Tryptych
reply to post by Phlynx

 

I'm not familiar what a "Hogwart" is, but the only difference is that the Bible is considered to be true, while Harry Potter admits being fiction.

But I'm not trying to destroy anyones faith, just trying to explain that Christ story is a myth, borrowed from other (pagan) religions. The Bible, however (like I said) full of allegories that definitely have a meaning. The way I see it, it's not to be taken literally.

Hogwarts is the wizarding school that non-wizards (muggles) can't see in Harry Potter. This is one of the weaker comparisons I can do, but they both offer as much faith.

I don't want to be rude to anyone posting here, but ATS is one of the only places I can politely speak my beliefs. I also enjoy hearing other logic, and letting others hear mine.

Haha, maybe I'm a bit too old and cranky to read Harry Potter.

But anyway..

Originally posted by Conclusion

Of course that would also mean that any such book relating to history are wrong.

Well, most historical events can be studied and do not deal with things like raising the dead and other supernatural acts. So even if the history books aren't always correct, usually the subjects are studied by experts and the theories based on concrete evidence.

The Bible isn't very plausible source.

reply to post by Phlynx

Actually it is 4.5 billion years, which species arrived about 1 billion years ago. Quick question, dinosaurs go extinct, some survive. Why don't we see them today? You believe we don't evolve, so I want to hear your conclusion, Conclusion (get it? ). If these animals we have today where with the dinosaurs we would have found fossils side by side, no?

See there they can't even agree on that. Some scientist say 4.7 billion years old. And that organisms began around 3.5 to 4 billion years ago. Conflicting ideas. We were created is my conclusion. Scientist say the shark has been around for a very long time. Sharks have been around for about 409 million years but before they evolved they were around for 890 million years. So they would have been around during dinosaurs. As far as me believing we don't evolve, I am sure we go through changes. I just don't believe we go through changes like into another species. I could be wrong. But that is what I believe.

reply to post by Tryptych

So even if the history books aren't always correct, usually the subjects are studied by experts and the theories based on concrete evidence.

Oh don't get me started on experts. The world is in the shape it is today because of these so called experts. lol


As for the Bible not being a reliable source of information you may want to check this link out.

debate.org.uk...

[edit on 4-7-2010 by Conclusion]

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by Phlynx

 

Actually it is 4.5 billion years, which species arrived about 1 billion years ago. Quick question, dinosaurs go extinct, some survive. Why don't we see them today? You believe we don't evolve, so I want to hear your conclusion, Conclusion (get it? ). If these animals we have today where with the dinosaurs we would have found fossils side by side, no?

See there they can't even agree on that. Some scientist say 4.7 billion years old. And that organisms began around 3.5 to 4 billion years ago. Conflicting ideas. We were created is my conclusion. Scientist say the shark has been around for a very long time. Sharks have been around for about 409 million years but before they evolved they were around for 890 million years. So they would have been around during dinosaurs. As far as me believing we don't evolve, I am sure we go through changes. I just don't believe we go through changes like into another species. I could be wrong. But that is what I believe.

You got the 3.5 billion to 4 billion thing right, that is for cellular organisms. 1 billion years ago was the dawning of animals. So you believe we go through changes... could you elaborate?

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by Tryptych

 

So even if the history books aren't always correct, usually the subjects are studied by experts and the theories based on concrete evidence.

Oh don't get me started on experts. The world is in the shape it is today because of these so called experts. lol

They aren't really experts if they got the world into this shape.

Originally posted by seeashrink
It would change things for none of you. Jesus came and raised the dead, healed the blind and the lame. Said He was the Son of God and did many many miracles that are not even recorded in the Bible...but they didn't believe Him. Why would you be any different?
Seeashrink

You do know christianity is one of the biggest religions in the world right?